Oh yea - COASTER WARS IN ORLANDO !!!

[jlewisinsyr]

I do think these were pretty different situations. Chrysler had a problem making a product IN THEIR FIELD that people wanted.

Kodak still made what a lot of people considered the tops in their field - film, at least for amateur use. They did lose some share when Fuji came in full force, but Fuji still was only a fraction of the market. They tried to make innovations (disc camera, Advantix) but they just didn't win over consumers. But they got caught by a major shift in the whole industry, AWAY from film. How does a film company survive that? They tried to shift with it - but they had a LOT more competition to contend with then, since now all the companies that made use of their products now were their competitors...

You are correct in both situations, but you are not considering the macro level from the top, neither company fit their market properly, one tried and failed, the other just didn't try. They both had management that failed to react and change quick enough.

Disney is a fairly slow moving ship, and it could definately be left behind to its more nimble competitors, or those it doesn't deem as a threat currently.

In short, this wasn't a lesson about what companies did and did not do right, rather it was the macro effects that companies, even the strongest can and do fail and fall to smaller or more powerful competitors. In short, never say never.

 

[Uncleromulus]

I think these mega thrill costers appeal to a somewhat small market...nice for those who like them, but certainly not about to cause the downfall of WDW.

 

[jimmymac]

I think these mega thrill costers appeal to a somewhat small market...nice for those who like them, but certainly not about to cause the downfall of WDW.

And the Harry Potter portion. Is that too a "somewhat small market"??? Hint: 500 million copies sold. Not American Idol, I will admit. The other guys are innoventing, WDW is recycling old ideas

 

[jimmymac]

Really? All 472 of them? And in one weekend, you say

I believe US attendance last year was 11.6 million. I'm not quite sure where the 472 figure comes from. Extensive research, I'm sure

 

[Condorman]

Really? All 472 of them? And in one weekend, you say

I believe US attendance last year was 11.6 million. I'm not quite sure where the 472 figure comes from. Extensive research, I'm sure

Extensive research indeed. You read my previous post and added my numbers together. Thanks for proving my point. Now allow me to educate you further. Please, take a seat.

Are you implying that all 11.6 million are coaster enthusiasts? Does that include the 4-5 million children, many of whom are too short to ride a mega-coaster? Does that include the mobility-challenged or those with general health issues? Your presumptuousnes hints that all 11.6 million people will be able to ride said attraction, and you would be incorrect. Only a fraction would, and contrary to Mouseaholic's depisal of all-things Disney, those few will not be storming the gates on opening day thereby forcing WDW to shut theirs.

You guys are really reaching on that one.

Harry Potter will be an instant success. That is precisely why they cut up the last film into two parts: to stretch out the appeal and coincide them with the opening at USO. However, USO doesn't have 1/10 the attractions WDW has. It has no where to go but up. Also, I've seen the footprint of the WWOHP as well as its current construction. It is the equivalent of Lights, Motors, Action! It can hold 5,000-7500 people, no more. It's a land -- not a park. It will be successful for USO. It will not be detrimental to anyone else.

BTW, 11.6 million is approximately 68% of the Magic Kingdom's attendance per annum -- just the MK -- not Epcot, AK or DHS. USO is not now, nor will it ever be considered competition in the eyes of WDW, not by Disney, not by Disney's standards and not by anyone able to perform simple arithmetic. I suggest you do your homework and stop looking over the shoulder of the theme park next to you. Your comments are personal opinion, whereas mine are common facts. If you're unhappy with WDW, stop visiting there and stop posting here. But then I suppose defending the losing side of an argument is considered cheap therapy to some? Enjoy USO. You'll be one of the many few.

Class dismissed!

 

[BayouMickey]

For every coaster ethusiast that bypasses Disney, that's 5-30 seconds off my wait time, that adds up! GO GO Universal!

 

[skier_pete]

Condorman,

Thank God someone else on one of these threads is rational! Disney has chosen to stay out of mega-coaster business because they target Families...age 4 to 84. Building a single thrill-ride at Disney World will not change the demographic. It's why they focus on things like TSMM and American Idol. Even though I can't stand AI, and would rather have a thrill ride, they are looking for things with broad appeal.

Now, HP certainly has broad appeal, there no denying that, I'm sure Disney would have loved to get the rights, but they deemed it too expensive. As I said in the HP thread....I love HP, but if you think HP is going to adversely affect Disney, you are mistaken. Even if you assume a 10 % bump in attendance at Universal...and understand that Universal would DROOL at a 10 % bump...if you assumed every-one of those days was taken directly from Disney, that would be an attendance drop of Disney of less than 2 %. But then, think of all the people that would travel to Florida just to see Harry Potter land. Hey, those people drove/flew down, and now spent a couple days at Universal. Harry Potter land will probably cover about 2-4 hours of your vacation...now what. Hey...Disney World is just down the street, let's spend a few days there!

So guess what folks, the fact that Universal got HP will likely result in a net growth of tourism to central Florida...which will actually HELP WDW! WDW took care of the "threat" of Universal back in the '90s when they expanded to become a true week-long destination resort. Until Universal becomes more than just a day-park...there is no threat. Why do you think Universal is giving away week-long passes for the price of a day...because that gets you back for another day or two...no-one...and I mean NO-ONE is spending 7 days going to Uni/IOA.

Sorry for going on so long, but I get really irritated by the lack of common sense that comes along when people are trying to tear down the Disney Parks. Believe me, I don't agree with everything they do. (I think eliminating Pleasure Island was stupid beyond belief.) But not building a mega-coaster? It's not their market. It's not Sea-world's market either...that's why in 2007 when I went to Sea World I rode Kraken mid-day in May with about 5 other people. The shows were SRO, but no-one was riding the thrill rides. Journey to Atlantis had no-one in line either. OF any of them, it seems to me the Sea World is the dumb one. Uni should definitely keep up with the top thrill technology...that is their niche, and it gets people there.

SkierPete

 

[jimmymac]

[


Actually, I didn't add your numbers together, but I wasn't aware that you were the sole source of information on park attendance. I must assume then that you helped Al Gore create the Internet


Are you implying that all 11.6 million are coaster enthusiasts? Does that include the 4-5 million children, many of whom are too short to ride a mega-coaster? Does that include the mobility-challenged or those with general health issues? Your presumptuousnes hints that all 11.6 million people will be able to ride said attraction, and you would be incorrect.[/COLOR]

I made no such implication. I was just curious where the 472 came from

You guys are really reaching on that one.

Harry Potter will be an instant success. That is precisely why they cut up the last film into two parts: to stretch out the appeal and coincide them with the opening at USO. However, USO doesn't have 1/10 the attractions WDW has. It has no where to go but up. Also, I've seen the footprint of the WWOHP as well as its current construction. It is the equivalent of Lights, Motors, Action! It can hold 5,000-7500 people, no more. It's a land -- not a park. It will be successful for USO. It will not be detrimental to anyone else.

BTW, 11.6 million is approximately 68% of the Magic Kingdom's attendance per annum -- just the MK -- not Epcot, AK or DHS. USO is not now, nor will it ever be considered competition in the eyes of WDW, not by Disney, not by Disney's standards and not by anyone able to perform simple arithmetic. I suggest you do your homework and stop looking over the shoulder of the theme park next to you. Your comments are personal opinion, whereas mine are common facts. If you're unhappy with WDW, stop visiting there and stop posting here. But then I suppose defending the losing side of an argument is considered cheap therapy to some? Enjoy USO. You'll be one of the many few.

Class dismissed! [/QUOTE]

MY, my. methinks ye protest too much there. Is the 472 a "common fact?" I wasn't defending any side of any argument. I just think that with the new additions to US / IOA, a lot of people might just be tempted to change their plans - instead of 7 days at WDW, perhaps 4 at WDW, 2 days at Universal and 1 day at Seaworld. That's probably how we'll do our next Florida trip. The hotels at US btw are 4 star hotels at 4 star prices, not 3 star hotels at 5 star prices. And if you actually think that Disney quality hasn't slipped in the last few years, you haven't been going to the same parks / hotels that I have een. And lastly I really do admire your tolerance for those who don't agree with your point of view

 

[Mouseaholic!!!]

For every coaster ethusiast that bypasses Disney, that's 5-30 seconds off my wait time, that adds up! GO GO Universal!

NO WAY Disney could compete in the Coaster Wars - they don't really have any thrill-ride coasters......they are fun-ride coasters (which are perfect for me).

Problem is - there are many people who WILL want to try this coaster and the new one at Seaworld (photos of the coaster are on the Orlando paper's website today).


Did you see last quarter's earnings for Disney - they cannot afford to give away one penny. They also cannot afford to do NOTHING for years and expect to keep the interest of everyone.

The loss of only one day in a week's vacation is BIG $$$ if too many do it. New coasters and Harry Potter --- they are bound to loose guests.

I'll say to you - what I said to the people who were telling us Disney Parks are crowded (January - March) and Disney is not suffering from the poor economy........I'll wait and see. Call me a liar, call me stupid, call me all the names people have called me here. Sadly, I was right again about earnings. I'm not brilliant - I'm not an economist - I just watch the news with an open mind.

Disney will survive - but if they stop improving - will they survive 10 or 15 years from now. Look at their earnings from their movies!!! My GOD who is surprised -their movies this year STINK. How long can they afford to produce loosers. Thank goodness they have Pixar so they can remember what a good movie looks like!

Ok, ramble done. I'll wait right here and we can chat again when Harry Potter opens....and we will checkout the earnings statements for Disney and US. I'll be happy to admit I was wrong if the numbers prove it.

 

[BayouMickey]

NO WAY Disney could compete in the Coaster Wars - they don't really have any thrill-ride coasters......they are fun-ride coasters (which are perfect for me).

Problem is - there are many people who WILL want to try this coaster and the new one at Seaworld (photos of the coaster are on the Orlando paper's website today).


Did you see last quarter's earnings for Disney - they cannot afford to give away one penny. They also cannot afford to do NOTHING for years and expect to keep the interest of everyone.

The loss of only one day in a week's vacation is BIG $$$ if too many do it. New coasters and Harry Potter --- they are bound to loose guests.

I'll say to you - what I said to the people who were telling us Disney Parks are crowded (January - March) and Disney is not suffering from the poor economy........I'll wait and see. Call me a liar, call me stupid, call me all the names people have called me here. Sadly, I was right again about earnings. I'm not brilliant - I'm not an economist - I just watch the news with an open mind.

Disney will survive - but if they stop improving - will they survive 10 or 15 years from now. Look at their earnings from their movies!!! My GOD who is surprised -their movies this year STINK. How long can they afford to produce loosers. Thank goodness they have Pixar so they can remember what a good movie looks like!

Ok, ramble done. I'll wait right here and we can chat again when Harry Potter opens....and we will checkout the earnings statements for Disney and US. I'll be happy to admit I was wrong if the numbers prove it.

Hey! I'm with ya! Have fun over at US! Like you said, Disney will survive, so yeah, all you extreme coaster enthusiasts go to US! I figure if 10-20 of you bypass Disney that's like 5-10 minutes off my wait time!

 

[Uncleromulus]

Jimmymac: As others have said, Potter will be an instant success. The talk of the town!! People will fall all over themselves to see it--to even say that they THOUGHT about seeing it. Heck-I might even stop in to see it--been 5 years since we've been to Universal and we'll probably be ready for a new way to spend a couple of hours.
But my guess is that it won't have much staying power beyond a few years.

As for the coasters-Disney has apparently shown no interest in these mega coasters and doubt they'll care much about them attracting anyone away from WDW.

 

[Mouseaholic!!!]

Hey! I'm with ya! Have fun over at US! Like you said, Disney will survive, so yeah, all you extreme coaster enthusiasts go to US! I figure if 10-20 of you bypass Disney that's like 5-10 minutes off my wait time!

Hey -

10 - 20 minutes off your wait time = less people in the parks....Isn't Disney suffering enoug right now (46% downturn in profit last quarter --- that's 46%!).

I'm not sure you really want to wish downturns on Disney.

They had plenty of layoffs after the first quarter results and the numbers were better than the second quarter. Perhaps we can all load ourselves into the rides ---- save Disney some payroll!!!

Be careful what you wish for with quiet parks!

 

[yitbos96bb]

And the Harry Potter portion. Is that too a "somewhat small market"??? Hint: 500 million copies sold. Not American Idol, I will admit. The other guys are innoventing, WDW is recycling old ideas

I would argue Harry Potter is MUCH MUCH more popular than American Idol. 30 million viewers is impressive, BUT its nothing compared to the number of Books Rowling has sold... and the number who have read is probably much higher.

 

[doconeill]

I would argue Harry Potter is MUCH MUCH more popular than American Idol. 30 million viewers is impressive, BUT its nothing compared to the number of Books Rowling has sold... and the number who have read is probably much higher.

Just FYI - HP book sales does not translate directly to number of fans, because there were SEVEN books. So I would at least divide that number by 7 to get a sense of the book fans.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Condorman,

Thank God someone else on one of these threads is rational!

Now, HP certainly has broad appeal, there no denying that, I'm sure Disney would have loved to get the rights, but they deemed it too expensive. As I said in the HP thread....

So guess what folks, the fact that Universal got HP will likely result in a net growth of tourism to central Florida...which will actually HELP WDW! WDW took care of the "threat" of Universal back in the '90s when they expanded to become a true week-long destination resort. Until Universal becomes more than just a day-park...there is no threat. Why do you think Universal is giving away week-long passes for the price of a day...because that gets you back for another day or two...no-one...and I mean NO-ONE is spending 7 days going to Uni/IOA.

Sorry for going on so long, but I get really irritated by the lack of common sense that comes along when people are trying to tear down the Disney Parks. Believe me, I don't agree with everything they do. (I think eliminating Pleasure Island was stupid beyond belief.) But not building a mega-coaster? It's not their market. It's not Sea-world's market either...that's why in 2007 when I went to Sea World I rode Kraken mid-day in May with about 5 other people. The shows were SRO, but no-one was riding the thrill rides. Journey to Atlantis had no-one in line either. OF any of them, it seems to me the Sea World is the dumb one. Uni should definitely keep up with the top thrill technology...that is their niche, and it gets people there.

SkierPete

Your first paragraph isn't very nice.

The second paragraph is a bit off. Disney didn't even have the chance to bid on HP. The Universal negotiator met with JP Rowling and they hit it off to the degree that the deal was done without opening the bidding. Eisner was extremely upset as he desperately wanted the franchise (rightly so) Rowling didn't want to go through that type of negotiation/bidding war.

You can dismiss Universal as a day park if you choose but your own rational logic is showing some armor chinks, IMO. Remember the news is that WDW is discounting just as much as Universal in this economy AND should Universal somehow end up with Sea World then WDW has real problems, logically thinking, that is.

 

[KINGBOBOFTHENORTH]

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Universal can never be what Disney is....Disney is just too huge.

But that doesn't change the fact that Universal has been and will continue to steal Disney customers. There are true Disney fanatics out there that used to spend 7 nights on Disney property that have never tried out Universal. Whether it's the Rip Ride Rocket coaster (that has the potential to be the best roller coaster ever constructed!) or whether its the Harry Potter Land, there are going to be a lot of Disney fans coming to Orlando that say let's just get the 4-day ticket this time and spend the rest of the time over at Universal (and Sea World). And they're going to find out that there's a whole bunch of cool attractions at USO, IOA and SW!

Disney execs are lucky that they can just point to the recession and blame all the decreases on that rather than account for their failures to keep up. PI was profitable but the lack of revenue from the island is not seen because the recession is to blame for the decreased earnings. And as the recession concludes and the numbers go back up again, the failure to keep up is going to also be invisibly lost in the increases. What a great excuse the recession has been for Disney management!

BobK/Orlando

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Apples and oranges.

The two parks aren't the same thing. They appeal to different people at different times.

Universal will continue to build innovative thrill rides.

WDW will continue to create family friendly immersive ride experiences. WDW will not build many thrill rides. It's not part of it theme. It will focus on stuff like Toy Story Mania and Soarin'.

Look at Sea World. When I was there as a child, it was a park dedicated to water shows and sea animals. Coasters? It has coasters now? That's just weird.

 

[justskip70003]

i would love to add my opinion on this.

first and formost let me say i am so in love with WDW i have decided to move to lake buena vista fl. 4.8 miles away from epcot. i have lived in tampa which gave me time to go to busch gardens (annual pass holder) anytime i wanted to. i went ALOT! i also went to sea world (same annual pass as busch gardens). i went to universal (annual pass holder) ALOT too. now heres the funny thing, the whole time i lived in tampa... 40 minutes away from WDW i only went to WDW 1 day. why i have no clue???

do i think since busch gardens has 5 huge coasters it will ever compete with disney... NO
do i think that uso/ioa has a ton of coasters, the coolest ride ever (spiderman) that new coaster, harry potter and all his lil friends land will ever compete with disney... NO
do i think seaworld with kraken and manta. with my fav animal in the whole world dolphins, and the biggest diva in all of the theme parks shamu will ever compete with disney... even if shamu jumped 42 semis while on fire and had dynomite shoved in a really uncomfortable oriface would sea world ever even come close to disneyworld.

disneyworld is not about ground breaking mega coaster, its not about thrill rides and its not about dopey whales doing tricks. its about the feelings you get. the way they make you feel special when your there. its about when you watch wishes with your kids or significant other how it makes you feel like a dream. disney is about the dream. taking all accounts of reality and throwing it over the fence. it is the happiest place on earth. period end of story!

mega coasters... HA your gonna have to go alot further than that to compete with uncle walt! WDW reigns supreme over all. all other theme parks bow and will do anything in there power to try and create what disney did. but they will fall short.

oh and another thing for you lil number crunchers out there. disney being down 46%... the whole world is down 46% disney is right where it wants to be, ON TOP and will always be on top. why... CAUSE ITS THAT DARN GOOD!

 

[schmitty]

Lol this counting Disney out is hilarious. Universal adds 1 new roller coaster and a new land with 1 new ride. First thing they do in 10 years and people are saying its going to turn Disney into a barren wasteland. SeaWorld is getting more people into its park than Universal. Disney has done Soarin, Expedition Everest, Mission Space, Toy Story Mania. You can also put on Spaceship Earth and Space Mountain with the huge refurbs that they had. Compare Disney's 6 big ticket attractions to Universals 2 and its obvious to see Disney does alot more. If I put in all the smaller ride additions and show changes it would be even more lopsided in Disneys favor.

 

[ChrisFL]

Lol this counting Disney out is hilarious. Universal adds 1 new roller coaster and a new land with 1 new ride. First thing they do in 10 years and people are saying its going to turn Disney into a barren wasteland. SeaWorld is getting more people into its park than Universal. Disney has done Soarin, Expedition Everest, Mission Space, Toy Story Mania. You can also put on Spaceship Earth and Space Mountain with the huge refurbs that they had. Compare Disney's 6 big ticket attractions to Universals 2 and its obvious to see Disney does alot more. If I put in all the smaller ride additions and show changes it would be even more lopsided in Disneys favor.

First thing they do in 10 years??? Where have you been? Since IOA opened, they've added MIB, an incredible attraction that competely blows Buzz out of the water. They've added The Mummy, highly rated by many theme park organizations and polls, Shrek 4D, Jimmy Neutron, Fear Factor Live (its still better than that joke of a show they're calling Stitch's SuperSonic Celebration), Storm Force and Seuss Trolley Train ride at IOA...and they're putting massive $$$ into Harry Potter, it's going to be a LOT more than "just one new ride"

So Disney made an exact copy of a DCA ride in Soarin', could not even bother to change the film at all....has a large rollercoaster with a massive AA that doesn't work, Mission:Space, a ride so intense that it left a high amount sick and worse, so bad they had to make a "green version" and a game that is now coming out in 3D on the Wii, so people can get nearly the same experience at home.