Official Thread - New commercial use policy published 03/31

[VGCgroupie]

I think it is more like some people are afraid DVC is going to net the dolphins as well as the tuna. My suggestion is perhaps they need another type of net?

What is baffling to me is how it can be so difficult to define commercial use and what is permitted. It has been suggested upthread that Disney already knows (or has a good idea) as to who these folks are. Why go through all these machinations ?

Because if you give specific guidelines the offenders will make those guidelines work to their benefit. Someone posted upthread if the cut off is 2000 points they will own 1999 points. Another real life example was when the checkbox was introduced about personal use some kept themselves as lead gust and just let their renter check in on the app. Well now there is a guideline specifically calling that out.

 

[juliebee]

I'm crying!!!

 

[VGCgroupie]

It's from Hamlet. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lady_doth_protest_too_much,_methinks

So I just showed uncultured I am.

 

[Tatebeck]

Of course Brian understands Brian

 

[VGCgroupie]

I'm crying!!!
View attachment 1061289

Comment of the day. I cannot even..

 

[Brian rhymes with dyin]

Of course Brian understands Brian

From the moment his parents and mine decided, wisely, to use I and not Y our bond was secured.

 

[Brian Noble]

For a certain small slice of culture, perhaps. But probably not Culture.

 

[Genie+]

There's a huge difference between what qualifies as disability access support at a theme park and possibly denying property owners rights associated with their ownership.

I think it’s comparable in the sense of how many people were so sure rights were being violated, using dozens of ‘what if’ scenarios in attempt to demonstrate how/why it would fail, then if/when pushed legally Disney provides the data to show it was not only reasonable but necessary to protect the functionality of their business and the experience of all customers.

I’d expect that last part to similarly play out with commercial rentals if litigated. Clearly their approach has been very methodical.

 

[disneylandtour]

This is Disney. The Happiest Place on Earth, making dreams come true, Make a Wish. If you think Disney is more concerned with a handful of pissed off DVC owners complaining about limiting access to their timeshare that 95% of Disney fans/guests have no idea about and don't care about, versus the optics of children in wheelchairs sitting outside a courthouse on Good Morning America waving "Mickey Doesn't Love Me Anymore" banners, well...

If Disney is willing to take on the global handicapped community (because that's how the ripple effect will work), they'll take on some DVC owners in a heartbeat.

No, what I'm saying is the type of costs involved to mount a legal challenge on behalf of likely millions of disabled visitors is very different than the costs required for a single person to file a suite about personal denial of ownership benefits.

 

[Brian Noble]

It's also worth noting that some of the "rights" some people think they have with respect to DVC ownership are not actually there, thanks to the hundreds of pages of limitations in the governing documents.

Heck, a previous house I owned included a good forty pages of rules and regulations that travel with and limit the use of the property---up to and including a rule that we had to get permission for exterior paint colors, a prohibition on visible shed structures, etc.

(I do not miss living there. It was giving off very significant Over The Hedge/Rockin' The Suburbs vibes.)

Of course, those people might be right, and Disney might be wrong. But it will be very expensive and time consuming to find out.

 

[dcfromva]

Because if you give specific guidelines the offenders will make those guidelines work to their benefit. Someone posted upthread if the cut off is 2000 point they own 1999 points. Another real life example was when the checkbox was introduced about personal use some kept themselves as lead gust and just let their renter check in on the app. Well now there is a guideline specialfally calling that out.

Oh my gosh. I think that would be an exceptionally risky situation--who would accept a reservation with someone else's name on it (who could potentially get access to the room)? On the other side of the coin, what if the renters left the bill for the lead guest? I could see where that situation could end badly in a lot of ways. And, really--it wouldn't be personal use whether you checked the box or not if you were in fact renting commercially, right?

 

[VGCgroupie]

Oh my gosh. I think that would be an exceptionally risky situation--who would accept a reservation with someone else's name on it (who could potentially get access to the room)? On the other side of the coin, what if the renters left the bill for the lead guest? I could see where that situation could end badly in a lot of ways. And, really--it wouldn't be personal use whether you checked the box or not if you were in fact renting commercially, right?

I do see what you are saying. But thats what they decided they would do for some rentals. I guess the renter would be required to list their own credit card upon online check in for the bill portion. Renters could be okay with this because they can link the reservation in the app and know they have actually booked the rental just like if they were the lead guest.

 

[Moonspinner]

No, what I'm saying is the type of costs involved to mount a legal challenge on behalf of likely millions of disabled visitors is very different than the costs required for a single person to file a suite about personal denial of ownership benefits.

You don’t have any stated benefits except the right to book at your home resort. It’s a time share, not a room you’re renting out of your home.

 

[Genie+]

Maybe someone should set up a non-profit dedicated to protecting the commercial rental rights of DVC owners

 

[atthebeachclub]

It was giving off very significant Over The Hedge/Rockin' The Suburbs vibes

A Ben Folds reference! You’re speaking my language!

 

[muppets3d]

Yes, restricting rentals may increase cash rentals from Disney.

But from an owner's perspective, if you completely took away a legitimate use (like renting) would you think twice before that next add-on? Would you have bought as many points from DVD if the policy for each use year was "use it or lose it"? Would you rave about the product to friends if you had a bunch of points go unused each year?

Things like banking and (the ability to) rent when not using all your points in a given year create more flexibility in the ownership which increases sales, or allows DVD to extract a higher sales price. If you add too many restrictions, or create bad publicity with these types of policies, it can also hurt sales. It's a fine line...

Again for the 500th time, DVC is not taking away renting.

 

[sndral]

As these discussions inevitably stray into the contract interpretation weeds, IMO none of our documents give us an express right to rent, that ‘right’ is at best implied from a couple of clauses (most notably the one stating that if you rent, you must have a contract) and from Florida statutory & case law. Statutes can be and are changed. AFAIK there is no case law in Florida specifically dealing with the right to rent a fractional deeded interest in a point based timeshare system. How a court would balance the must have a contract if you rent clause against the several times the documents state in bold this is for personal use, do not buy expecting to rent for profit, etc. , in any event, whether it’s an express or an implied right doesn’t matter ATM, since it’s clear that DVC is prepared to continue allowing renting albeit w/ higher scrutiny & stricter enforcement going forward.
Now, let’s talk litigation, something I’m far more experienced with than contract interpretation .
It’s important to recognize that DVC is unlikely to sue anyone, thus they won’t have to prove anything except any affirmative defenses they may raise.
They are going to use the enforcement mechanisms they’ve outlined to start shutting down certain practices. Thus, the persons/entities impacted will have to sue if they want to continue to operate. And as the plaintiffs those aggrieved parties are the ones who usually have to ‘prove’ their interpretation is the correct one.
What about remedies, what do these aggrieved parties sue for - lost profits? But if they can prove by a preponderance of the evidence they’ve lost profits from DVC’s interpretation of the documents they’ve just proved they’re also in violation because they are making a profit.
Let’s say they don’t pursue the lost profit claim for obvious reasons, but they seek an injunction to stop DVC from applying these restrictions to them in the future, for that their burden of proof is the much higher clear & convincing evidence + more.
Disney’s legal department has always prepared for litigation before launching changes & once launched they’ve chosen which legal battles to fight - just look at how they handled the GAC & DAS rule changes.
OTH, I’ve got to believe that certain um…parties won’t willing give up the mountains of money they’ve been making & have likely anticipated some of this & consulted lawyers who are prepared to pick their own battles in an attempt to shut it down & continue that lucrative money making business.
Interesting times ahead, I wouldn’t want to be in the rental game as a renter or rentee so as to not be caught in the cross fire.

Could be, but law is very much a field of speciality. So it would likely need to be an owner, an attorney, and one who specializes in this type of law. And might I add, has the time to fight a big corporation.

An owner who regularly rents who’s a lawyer licensed to practice in or at least familiar with/ Florida (or, if applicable, California) state law &/or admitted to Federal practice in the correct district (or willing to proceed pro hac vice,) who specializes in timeshare/contract law, & loves civil litigation, IOW a unicorn.

 

[Tatebeck]

As these discussions inevitably stray into the contract interpretation weeds, IMO none of our documents give us an express right to rent, that ‘right’ is at best implied from a couple of clauses (most notably the one stating that if you rent, you must have a contract) and from Florida statutory & case law. Statutes can be and are changed. AFAIK there is no case law in Florida specifically dealing with the right to rent a fractional deeded interest in a point based timeshare system. How a court would balance the must have a contract if you rent clause against the several times the documents state in bold this is for personal use, do not buy expecting to rent for profit, etc. , in any event, whether it’s an express or an implied right doesn’t matter ATM, since it’s clear that DVC is prepared to continue allowing renting albeit w/ higher scrutiny & stricter enforcement going forward.
Now, let’s talk litigation, something I’m far more experienced with than contract interpretation .
It’s important to recognize that DVC is unlikely to sue anyone, thus they won’t have to prove anything except any affirmative defenses they may raise.
They are going to use the enforcement mechanisms they’ve outlined to start shutting down certain practices. Thus, the persons/entities impacted will have to sue if they want to continue to operate. And as the plaintiffs those aggrieved parties are the ones who usually have to ‘prove’ their interpretation is the correct one.
What about remedies, what do these aggrieved parties sue for - lost profits? But if they can prove by a preponderance of the evidence they’ve lost profits from DVC’s interpretation of the documents they’ve just proved they’re also in violation because they are making a profit.
Let’s say they don’t pursue the lost profit claim for obvious reasons, but they seek an injunction to stop DVC from applying these restrictions to them in the future, for that their burden of proof is the much higher clear & convincing evidence + more.
Disney’s legal department has always prepared for litigation before launching changes & once launched they’ve chosen which legal battles to fight - just look at how they handled the GAC & DAS rule changes.
OTH, I’ve got to believe that certain um…parties won’t willing give up the mountains of money they’ve been making & have likely anticipated some of this & consulted lawyers who are prepared to pick their own battles in an attempt to shut it down & continue that lucrative money making business.
Interesting times ahead, I wouldn’t want to be in the rental game as a renter or rentee so as to not be caught in the cross fire.

An owner who regularly rents who’s a lawyer licensed to practice in or at least familiar with/ Florida (or, if applicable, California) state law &/or admitted to Federal practice in the correct district (or willing to proceed pro hac vice,) who specializes in timeshare/contract law, & loves civil litigation, IOW a unicorn.

POS Documents: https://cdn1.parksmedia.wdprapps.disney.com/media/dvc/en/collateral-docs/MS_POS_Rev_05_02_2023.pdf

"if you wish to rent your Ownership Interest, you must rent your occupancy rights solely through your own efforts. As stated above, The TWDC Companies, including, without limitation, DVD, will be in competition with you for renters, and DVD will place its own inventory of Ownership Interests into a rental program of its own. All renters and exchangers must comply with the rules and regulations affecting occupancy of Vacation Homes, and the renting Owners will be responsible for the acts or omissions of their renters or any other person or persons permitted by the Owners to use a reserved Vacation Home."

Home Resort Rules and Regulations: https://disneyvacationclub.disney.g...ome_Resort_Rules_and_Regulations_Aug_2021.pdf

"Making Reservations for Guest.
a. Club Members may use their Home Resort Vacation Points to reserve Vacation Homes that will be occupied by Guests.
b. When a Club Member uses Home Resort Vacation Points to reserve Vacation Homes on behalf of a Guest, and the Club Member does not charge any rental or other fees to the Guest for the reservation, then the Guest may be eligible for all or some of the Club Member privileges and benefits that a Club Member would normally receive during the Club Member’s stay in the reserved Vacation Home. If the Guest is renting, it is the responsibility of the Member to notify Member Services when making the reservation. Member privileges and benefits cannot be extended to Guests who rent Vacation Homes from Club Members."

Official DVC FAQ:
https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/faq/commercial-use-policy/member-rent-out-points

Q: Can a Member rent out Points?
A. Renting points is allowed on occasion.

These are at least 3 documents that mention that when members may rent and how they will have to go about it, expectations that you notify member's services, responsibilities, etc. If it wasn't allowed they would have just said so! Like they did in the POS documents regarding interval international bookings "Club Members are also expressly prohibited from renting any weekreserved at an II affiliated resort through the Club."

 

[Genie+]

Small intermission - Go Artemis II

So brave to be leaving our spaceship earth

 

[Huskerpal]

An owner who regularly rents who’s a lawyer licensed to practice in or at least familiar with/ Florida (or, if applicable, California) state law &/or admitted to Federal practice in the correct district (or willing to proceed pro hac vice,) who specializes in timeshare/contract law, & loves civil litigation, IOW a unicorn.

Or they could retain the law firm Dewey, Cheatum, & Howe.

I own in a few different timeshare systems and if I had a dollar for every time an owner posted "Someone should sue!!" in response to a change the managment company made they didn't like, you could add my name to the 1,000 point owner list.