Official Thread - New commercial use policy published 03/31

[VGCgroupie]

This is going to be an absolutely fabulous exhibition of pretzel logic and internet lawyering, second to none. I foresee hours and hours of entertainment and amusement reading this thread over the next few days (and a lot more popcorn eaten than work done for me).

Cue up the pearl clutching and righteous indignation!

Remind me which way do you lean? Pro or anti commercial renting?

 

[PolyRob]

I just counted and we also have 25 reservations. 7 are individual day reservations at VDH to get the free lighting lane on each day lol.

I was tempted to try this, but my family would disown me if we had to move rooms even once

I rent a decent amount of reservations, but it seems like I will be within their rules. On the other hand, I have a unique situation where my Great Aunt may get caught up in this. She bought Beach Club in 2002 and 2006. Since then her husband has passed away and she no longer goes to WDW. Hasn’t been in 7 years since my wedding and for that trip she booked 5 studios for our family. She is also older has no MDX account, no online dvc account, doesn’t even have an email address and uses a flip phone. WDW is too complex for her to navigate now. I don’t even want to attempt to explain LL and Genie+. But she can’t bring herself to sell the contract (I have told her she will get more money than she bought it for, but she still has an attachment to it) Every year she will treat some relative to a WDW stay. My siblings have experienced a weekend in a Copper Creek cabin and Poly bungalow. Extended family has gone to Disneyland. I know this is personal use and she does not receive money for these reservations, but she will be super confused if she receives a letter, but she also hasn’t used the contract herself since 2019 and even then she was 1/5 reservations.

This is an example where curbing abuse could have negative outcomes for an innocent member. I have a friend with an elderly grandmother that no longer travels, but gifts Aulani stays as wedding presents... I imagine she would also get a letter

 

[maui22]

I wondering what people thought about the multiple rooms across overlapping dates.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this portion

A majority of reservations or Points owned or controlled by an Owner (which may take into account all Points owned or controlled by an Owner across all Resorts at any given time) are made or use respectively at Resorts with overlapping room types and/or dates, regardless of whether the Owner or Associate is named as a guest on said reservations;

I was not thrilled with that language. 2024 used our points to book four PVB studios and a BLT 2BR for a 3 generation family trip. Even had to rent points from others for two more PVB studios.

Back in 2022 or 2023, we similarly used all our points to gift family 2BR BLT and a studio at BLT. Last minute we found availability and joined them on the trip.

We have gifted family a lot of our points.

I feel as though they should allow for family and friends.

 

[Genie+]

This "Points owned or controlled by an Owner" is what I don't understand. I thought points were fake things that represented an ownership in a resort and we just use points to signify the amount of that ownership.

Does "Points owned or controlled" mean:
-All the points I'm entitled to in one year, assuming no banking / borrowing (this seems the most correct, but I can't prove it)
-All the points currently sitting in my account(s) for my current use year (could include banked points, or I may have "lost control" of points banked to next year or used points)
-All points in my account for this use year + next year I could borrow
-Any of the above + the value of reservations I've booked
-All the points my contract will ever have allocated (consider that I can influence points in far away use years via transfers for things like DCL)

The above considers only the future. Presumably, they'd want to look back some amount on expended points? Otherwise, points I used to make a commercial rental last week that's now done wouldn't count anymore? I feel like I don't control expended points any more, even if they were expended in my current use year. The "majority" math would need to be redone every time a trip completes (or after every night.)

I'm surprised they didn't either do this just based off reservations, or define "Points owned or controlled." Unless that's better defined in a POS somewhere that I missed? I see "owned or controlled" referring to points in the POS only for not having more than 8000 points... So that seems like it means your points allocated in one year.

So here's my scheme-y loophole proposal that has to wrong somehow, I just can't decide how.

1. Assume "Controlled points" = the points you have rights to in any single year, since that seems to be how the POS means it.
2. Bank my points to the next use year
3. Wait until UY anniversary
4. Use all the banked points -1 for rentals. (just under 50% of my points in the current use year are commercial, and none from actually this year.)
5. Let the 1 point go to waste
6. After all rentals are complete, bank all points from this year to next year.
7. Repeat.

Booking + availability might be awkward, but this seems possible?

Please (nicely) throw rocks at this. I must be missing something.

Maybe this updated phrase intends to reduce the size/number of the common loopholes used?

Could be as simple as closing the ‘associate’ loophole and similar strategies. If somebody on Facebook was managing other members points to split rental proceeds, or they were buying in other family members’ names to get around max allowances, maybe DVC wanted an easier way to connect the activities.

Didn’t they also change the 20 reservation rule from per membership to across memberships?

Probably intends to cover other things too.

 

[foodiddiedoo]

How so? Renting is not forbidden. And what if points are gifted? My aunt gifted my sister a reservation at the GF as a wedding present. Is my aunt supposed to travel 1500 miles and go on the honeymoon with my sister and her husband? That's ridiculous.

As the punitive action for renting 20x a year for folks other than yourself. Not as a default.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Remind me which way do you lean? Pro or anti commercial renting?

Full disclosure so we're all clear:

I'm back down to just over 1,100 points. I have rented a few times (once or twice a year maybe), but it has always been to unload points that we couldn't use (typically borrowed points on cancelled stays that were made in my name, for my use). I've always tried to use up as many points as possible in one rental, focusing on just getting rid of the points rather than seeking out the most money across multiple rentals. I think the most points I've ever rented in one year was maybe +/- 350, which is probably the average for a week-long stay in a 2 BDR, our preferred vacation stay. I've also gifted stays to family (I've apparently irritated people in other threads by saying I'd never charge family or close friends for using my points because I feel over a lifetime, things tend to balance out as long as it's not repeated or expected).

With that said, I absolutely despise anyone who's buying up points for the sole (or even primary, since I don't care what they think of me) purpose of renting them out for profit. I particularly can't stand those who clog up high value dates or room types simply because those dates maximize profits. If DVC were to catch one of those @#$&'s with 25 or 30 discrete rolling reservations advertising them on Facebook, I'd probably soil myself laughing. And I've yet to even find one of those people renting out dates that I want.

Since we're on full disclosure mode, I also happen to vehemently disagree with anyone who says "Points are points, it doesn't matter if the owner stays on them or rents them out". Members using points for their own stays, in the room types they prefer, at the resorts they prefer, during the travel times they prefer (or are restricted to by life), create an organic distribution of reservations. Yes, there will always be more popular dates and room types (I own at SSR, but I'm not jumping on standard view studios in August or September). but there will still be a predominantly organic distribution of stays. "People" (don't want to get put in timeout for using the more appropriate and accurate term) who solely buy points to target specific dates and specific rooms with absolutely no intention of using any of those reservations for their own use, do not, in any way, mimic that natural distribution.

There's my lean.

 

[Girlstar30]

@IsDVCForMe? Can you post the link of that article you posted earlier. There was something in there you being responsible for any "consequences" using the rental companies. ( im wondering what consequences they are referring to to try to scare people from using these sites) and I wasnt home when I briefly skimmed over something along those lines

 

[Cfabar1]

So maybe it’s not just number of points? It can also be the amount reservations than typical… like the ratio? Say a person owns 250 points but they use them to make 8 AKV value studio reservations and 5 BWV resort studios. This could be considered an exceptional number of reservations when compared to the way average owners use their memberships.

as it should be... provided they are not listed as a guest on any of these reservations, and cannot provide evidence that they are actually using the reservation personally.

 

[Girlstar30]

Never mind I found it.

This passage was interesting to me and wondering what consequences they may be referring to

Q8: Can a Member rent out Points using a third-party website?

Frequently or regularly renting/selling reservations is strictly prohibited. DVC is not affiliated with any third-party rental websites. Members who use third party websites assume responsibility for any resulting consequences.

 

[DebbieB]

Is calling in to make a reservation an option and a way to avoid agreeing? I see that having the ability to make reservation online is one of the consequences.

I called in a couple weeks ago to merge reservations, before speaking to a cast member, you have to go through all the prompts. One of them was agreeing that this reservation was for personal use. I haven’t called in for a long time, I was surprised.

Those who are booking multiple rooms for a family trip, I would add the “traveling with” comment to each one.

Do most Commercial Renters work on their own instead of going through a broker? I wonder if the broker would track it to keep their nose clean.

 

[Cfabar1]

I still think if someone rents more than 11 reservations out a year they should start counting all their reservations and be concerned. That leaves the regular once a year renter out of this issue.

if you're renting out more than 11 reservations per year, you are likely a commercial renter! that's almost one reservation a month...

 

[peder]

Yeah it's possible. But then again, maybe renters will buy resale if it's harder to find confirmed reservations.

That is a good point. We used transfers every year to shore up points for reservations, and if transfers likewise became harder to find, we'd probably buy more points.

Still, it's just basic econ: aggregate demand will be lower so prices will also be lower.

 

[IsDVCForMe?]

@Girlstar30 sorry I’m late lol

 

[Cfabar1]

This is about Disney capturing that revenue.. they don't like that it is going to these rental people...

That said... I am glad they are going after them... This product is designed for personal use, not to create a cottage industry...

 

[Girlstar30]

@Girlstar30 sorry I’m late lol

Its ok I had it opened in another window! We were golfing and my wife was getting pissed at me, she didnt care that I told her a hot new thread was emerging lol

 

[IsDVCForMe?]

Never mind I found it.

This passage was interesting to me and wondering what consequences they may be referring to

Q8: Can a Member rent out Points using a third-party website?

Frequently or regularly renting/selling reservations is strictly prohibited. DVC is not affiliated with any third-party rental websites. Members who use third party websites assume responsibility for any resulting consequences.

I saw that and thought the same thing. As a renter, this might steer me away.

Edit: I’ve never rented before but might not want to take that risk.

 

[IsDVCForMe?]

Its ok I had it opened in another window! We were golfing and my wife was getting pissed at me, she didnt care that I told her a hot new thread was emerging lol

Lololol this made my night. Forrreeeee!

 

[Girlstar30]

Lololol this made my night. Forrreeeee!

Yeah shes tired of my "hold on the thread is lit/on fire" and she caught on to me pretending to go to the bathroom for extended periods of time

 

[IsDVCForMe?]

I’m sure this may have been discussed, but are we assuming the values will be dropping?

 

[tx911]

Wow. I haven't read through the details, and don't much care. I'm ecstatic they are cracking down on this, while leaving plenty of leeway for "normal", non-commercial renting.