ObamaCare Info

[TwoAtDisney]

I respect what you are saying, however, because someone is "lucky" doesn't not necessitate them being ok with a poorly designed Bill that possibly will cost trillions.

Also, I do resent the term lucky. I came from a low middle class family of an immigrant. Neither of my parents had education, but they focused a great deal on their 2 children bettering themselves and getting an education. We both took out massive student loans and each have a bachelors and 2 master's. Not luck....work!

aw, I was not addressing "lucky" regarding the bill. But about those posting either cruel or unknowing statements about those accepting government entitlements. Whether Ocare is good or bad cannot possibly be known at this time. All doom & gloom & all praise statements are speculation.

Again I say - The U.S. pays trillions on other countries, yet Americans complain when money will be spent on Americans. We could all get free health care if our tax money was spent for us. So, the bill is not the real problem, IMO.

aw, I was not addressing "lucky" regarding hard work. DH & I are a rags to riches story (well.....rags, yes, but not really riches!! ). Lucky in my post context is those who talk negatively about others for accepting government assistance. Everyone, except high multiple millionaires & above, are only financially independent because we are "lucky", even you & your family. An accident or illness could have prevented the success your family has - lucky! Hard work is needed, yes. But even hard work can't happen for some unfortunate people - unlucky.

 

[pilferk]

This is just patently silly. I am not the least bit mad that people will be going to the doctor. I am mad because I will have to pay for it as well as see others lose hours or jobs as a result.

There are many that are "those who can't". Some are there based on their own volition and others due to circumstances beyond their control. However, nowhere in our government is it the responsibility of the "common" folks to take care of any where else. This is wealth redistribution plain and simple.

I will pose the same question to you I posed earlier. Irrespective of obamacare, and its detriment or merits, what are the options?

You either refuse those people care, and let them die, or provide care and find a way to pay for it.

So which is it?

If you provide care, you/we are paying either way... You are either funding it through higher taxes, higher premiums, or higher out of pocket costs. But no matter which methodology, you're paying or it.

If your point is that everyone should get off the federal dole....great. Everyone should pull themselves up by their bootstraps, find middle class paying jobs...upper middle class, actually, and fund thir own healthcare, regardless of circumstance, access to educational resources, and opportunity. That's a great, if somewhat idealistic, sentiment. But it's unrealistic to think that is happening soon, in this environment, in this country, in this economy. And in the meantime, people still need care.

That's the difference between theory craft and reality....

 

[delmar411]

I thought you could opt out of it as an individual? Doctors for regular things are not spendy at all, nor are dental cleanings etc, its when something goes wrong or they can't find you an answer that things start adding up. If machines are involved? Fuggedaboutit! 4X or more higher than a # you see in your nightmares.

No, there is no opting out without paying a $95 per person penalty which in our household would be $570. I could get a lot of medical care for $570. Like I said, I'd be interested in a catastrophic plan but we won't be allowed to get that either.

 

[aw14]

I will pose the same question to you I posed earlier. Irrespective of obamacare, and its detriment or merits, what are the options?

You either refuse those people care, and let them die, or provide care and find a way to pay for it.

So which is it?

If you provide care, you/we are paying either way... You are either funding it through higher taxes, higher premiums, or higher out of pocket costs. But no matter which methodology, you're paying or it.

If your point is that everyone should get off the federal dole....great. Everyone should pull themselves up by their bootstraps, find middle class paying jobs...upper middle class, actually, and fund thir own healthcare, regardless of circumstance, access to educational resources, and opportunity. That's a great, if somewhat idealistic, sentiment. But it's unrealistic to think that is happening soon, in this environment, in this country, in this economy. And in the meantime, people still need care.

That's the difference between theory craft and reality....

There were more cost efficient options. 1. how about a smaller option specifically created to assist those and only those with preexisting conditions and not focus on forcing a "tax" on those who dont want it. Another option would have been to not unnecessarily hurt the middle class to assist those that dont have. That is not the premise of this country. It was supposed to be equal opportunity, not necessarily equal results. However, this plan is in a step , wealth redistribution.

I agree, it is not reasonable to think all will get off the government handouts. However, the die is cast now. People who dont have now realize that they can vote themselves goods on the backs of others. This is just the start. Our economy is not growing at a rate that shows any future strength. What was once moderately sufficient economically, is slowly dwindling. I am not saying expect a crash tomorrow or even in 10 years. However, the trends are moving in the directions for those with their hands out. Thats a bad place to be.

 

[pilferk]

The Medicare change did not adversely affect 'regular' Medicare. It cut 'Advantage Care', a specialty medicare program with minimal amount of users who can now switch to regular.

Medicare got a goody - a closing of the RX donut hole.

To be more clear:

Medicare advantage is Medicare administrated by insurance companies. To entice them to take over this task...with the assertion they would be better and more efficient at it...the government offeredbetween a 15% and 40% premium to them. In othe words, the care the government paid for directly cost, say, $1...the Medicare advantage admins got 1.15 to 1.40 to pay for. It was always the intent that the premium would be phased out since the thought was that, after start up costs, the insurers could make economies of scale and resources, and still make money on the $1.

The "cut" is the elimination of that premium. To date, no insurer providing admin of Medicare advantage has elected to opt out because of that elimination....

 

[TwoAtDisney]

Per aw14 - "nowhere in our government is it the responsibility of the "common" folks to take care of any where else. This is wealth redistribution plain and simple."

How about Taxes? Higher income folks (even "common folks") = pay more taxes to help pay for services to lower & no income "folks" = wealth redistribution. Higher income pays more of the costs for everything.

How about Social Security? Except for early death, most recipients are on the dole for many years after their contributions have run out.

How about Medicaid funded thru our taxes?

How about employer mandates - Workman's Comp, Unemployment, SS, etc., etc.

How about Property Taxes? Most is spent on schools - we don't have any kids in school, but we definitely want the schools funded & we contribute.

 

[aw14]

aw, I was not addressing "lucky" regarding the bill. But about those posting either cruel or unknowing statements about those accepting government entitlements. Whether Ocare is good or bad cannot possibly be known at this time. All doom & gloom & all praise statements are speculation.

Again I say - The U.S. pays trillions on other countries, yet Americans complain when money will be spent on Americans. We could all get free health care if our tax money was spent for us. So, the bill is not the real problem, IMO.

aw, I was not addressing "lucky" regarding hard work. DH & I are a rags to riches story (well.....rags, yes, but not really riches!! ). Lucky in my post context is those who talk negatively about others for accepting government assistance. Everyone, except high multiple millionaires & above, are only financially independent because we are "lucky", even you & your family. An accident or illness could have prevented the success your family has - lucky! Hard work is needed, yes. But even hard work can't happen for some unfortunate people - unlucky.

You are preaching to the converted on foreign spending....outrageous. However, this bill will far exceed what is typically spent on foreign nations, and we have been sold a bill of goods about its cost.

The term lucky evidently is quite subjective. I am not sure if it was luck that got me through a 63 page thesis in grad school, or allowed me to survive a ruptured spleen 2 years ago, or was it luck that gave me the ruptured spleen.

In reality, it was the fact that my parents pushed me hard for an education when they didnt choose to do it themselves. They always said they had the choice, but didnt want to. We all have choices, its what we make of them.

With student loans being so available, there is no reason that someone does not get an education, unless they dont think they should.

 

[leahjade]

The U.S. Census Bureau reported that 16.3% of the population, were uninsured in 2010

You would think from the mainstream media that half the country had no health insurance and were laying dying in hospitals that wouldn't treat them! And don't forget that some of that 16% are offered insurance, but decide not to purchase. I have two nephews (young and healthy) who work in the construction industry, and their employer has insurance but they just declined due to not wanting to spend the money at this time in their lives. So I wonder what the uninsured figure really is?
To overhaul an entire nation's healthcare (which a majority of people are satisfied with) is ludicrous. I agree that a few of the items like insuring kids till age 26 or pre-existing conditions helps a lot of people but to jeopardize a nation's economy is scary.

 

[aw14]

Per aw14 - "nowhere in our government is it the responsibility of the "common" folks to take care of any where else. This is wealth redistribution plain and simple."

How about Taxes? Higher income folks (even "common folks") = pay more taxes to help pay for services to lower & no income "folks" = wealth redistribution. Higher income pays more of the costs for everything.

How about Social Security? Except for early death, most recipients are on the dole for many years after their contributions have run out.

How about Medicaid funded thru our taxes?

How about employer mandates - Workman's Comp, Unemployment, SS, etc., etc.

How about Property Taxes? Most is spent on schools - we don't have any kids in school, but we definitely want the schools funded & we contribute.

preaching to the converted. I am not in favor of these programs. Social Security is different as you pointed out, but that could be rectified. The problem with that program is the government has stolen much of the $ in that program and utilized it elsewhere.

My point was please let me know where it is stated in our founding documents that those without should survive on the backs of others?

 

[pilferk]

There were more cost efficient options. 1. how about a smaller option specifically created to assist those and only those with preexisting conditions and not focus on forcing a "tax" on those who dont want it. Another option would have been to not unnecessarily hurt the middle class to assist those that dont have. That is not the premise of this country. It was supposed to be equal opportunity, not necessarily equal results. However, this plan is in a step , wealth redistribution.

So, then, the objection isnt being forced to pay for it. It's the manner and specifics of how you're being forced to pay or it. That's very different than what you said.

Again, I'm staying out of the obamacare specific debate. But many of those debating are debating theory and not reality.

As for the middle class, as I demonstrated, they're already being hurt. Either with higher insurance premiums, higher out f pocket costs, higher taxes to fund Medicare/Medicaid...or all of the above.

Because the reality is, when there is paying to be done, it's the middle class that does it. No matter who is in the White House, or what ideology they subscribe to.

I agree, it is not reasonable to think all will get off the government handouts. However, the die is cast now. People who dont have now realize that they can vote themselves goods on the backs of others. This is just the start. Our economy is not growing at a rate that shows any future strength. What was once moderately sufficient economically, is slowly dwindling. I am not saying expect a crash tomorrow or even in 10 years. However, the trends are moving in the directions for those with their hands out. Thats a bad place to be.

It's hard to find that slope, given so much is influenced by our current terrible employment numbers. And much of that is on the backs of manufacturing pretty much disappearing. It's a new dawn, and it remains to be seen if we can redirect our workforce to adapt to it.
I don't think people are nearly as keen to be on the dole...at least most of them...as you surmise. Yes, there s abuse and people who take advantage. But I don't remotely think that is the majority.

 

[pilferk]

You are preaching to the converted on foreign spending....outrageous. However, this bill will far exceed what is typically spent on foreign nations, and we have been sold a bill of goods about its cost.

The term lucky evidently is quite subjective. I am not sure if it was luck that got me through a 63 page thesis in grad school, or allowed me to survive a ruptured spleen 2 years ago, or was it luck that gave me the ruptured spleen.

In reality, it was the fact that my parents pushed me hard for an education when they didnt choose to do it themselves. They always said they had the choice, but didnt want to. We all have choices, its what we make of them.

With student loans being so available, there is no reason that someone does not get an education, unless they dont think they should.

Spend a week in an urban school setting, with a high poverty rate student body.

They don't have the access to the quality f education, the emphasis on secondary education, or the ability to pursue it..because they are typically working at young ages to try to help support the family home. Never mind the fact they are often worried about safety in high violence environments, rather than their homework.

It is not impossible to get out of that environment, but it is much more difficult. One mistake, added disadvantage, or bad break, and it becomes almost impossible.

I was lucky in that I was born in a middle class suburban town with a great educational system. Yes, I took advantage, worked hard, and made education a priority.

But not everyone gets the same advantages. That's just reality.

 

[pilferk]

You would think from the mainstream media that half the country had no health insurance and were laying dying in hospitals that wouldn't treat them! And don't forget that some of that 16% are offered insurance, but decide not to purchase. I have two nephews (young and healthy) who work in the construction industry, and their employer has insurance but they just declined due to not wanting to spend the money at this time in their lives. So I wonder what the uninsured figure really is?
To overhaul an entire nation's healthcare (which a majority of people are satisfied with) is ludicrous. I agree that a few of the items like insuring kids till age 26 or pre-existing conditions helps a lot of people but to jeopardize a nation's economy is scary.

The stat is slightly skewed in that it does not accurately portray the underinsured.

Edit: and if you owned a business and 15% of your customers weren't paying you...I'm guessing you would think it was a big deal.

 

[TwoAtDisney]

You are preaching to the converted on foreign spending....outrageous. However, this bill will far exceed what is typically spent on foreign nations, and we have been sold a bill of goods about its cost.

The term lucky evidently is quite subjective. I am not sure if it was luck that got me through a 63 page thesis in grad school, or allowed me to survive a ruptured spleen 2 years ago, or was it luck that gave me the ruptured spleen.

In reality, it was the fact that my parents pushed me hard for an education when they didnt choose to do it themselves. They always said they had the choice, but didnt want to. We all have choices, its what we make of them.

With student loans being so available, there is no reason that someone does not get an education, unless they dont think they should.

Ok, it's subjective - but it's MY posted "lucky", so please see my point!

You are "lucky" that you got thru your thesis & survived your ruptured spleen & your parents pushed you. That doesn't say you didn't provide the drive & the work - I didn't say that in my original post. It's simply that drive & work is not enough - you must have the "luck" that allows you to use that work & drive. You were lucky to be born with the mental capacity. You were lucky to survive a serious physical situation. You are lucky to have been born to parents who "pushed" you. My point was that not everyone is as lucky, so they may need serious help. Note - I was not addressing whether that help should come from Ocare or not.

Everyone does not have the choices you had - so you are lucky. A blind student cannot "chose" to see, a dead patient cannot chose to survive the ruptured spleen, & children of drugged or otherwise damaged parents cannot chose new parents who will push them to succeed. Note - I'm not saying they don't have other choices, just that you were lucky to have the choices you had/have.

RE: student loans, etc., I don't know where that came from in reference to my post. But not everyone is lucky enough to get a college education. Not everyone is as lucky as you. Not everyone has the mental capacity for college - unlucky. Some must work to support loved ones & therefore can't go to college - giving souls, but unlucky. Some may not be able to attend college because of of health/disability reasons - unlucky. On & on - millions of stories out there in the real world.

 

[annaaidan99]

You are preaching to the converted on foreign spending....outrageous. However, this bill will far exceed what is typically spent on foreign nations, and we have been sold a bill of goods about its cost. The term lucky evidently is quite subjective. I am not sure if it was luck that got me through a 63 page thesis in grad school, or allowed me to survive a ruptured spleen 2 years ago, or was it luck that gave me the ruptured spleen. In reality, it was the fact that my parents pushed me hard for an education when they didnt choose to do it themselves. They always said they had the choice, but didnt want to. We all have choices, its what we make of them. With student loans being so available, there is no reason that someone does not get an education, unless they dont think they should.

Actually, there is a reason...they aren't as available as you would think. I returned to school after my job loss/divorce a couple years ago. Despite having three kids and very minimal income, I was not eligible for grants or loans due to the fact I took a decent amount of courses twenty years ago when I first graduated. I received no financial aid back then. It has been very difficult.

 

[TwoAtDisney]

You would think from the mainstream media that half the country had no health insurance and were laying dying in hospitals that wouldn't treat them! And don't forget that some of that 16% are offered insurance, but decide not to purchase. I have two nephews (young and healthy) who work in the construction industry, and their employer has insurance but they just declined due to not wanting to spend the money at this time in their lives. So I wonder what the uninsured figure really is?
To overhaul an entire nation's healthcare (which a majority of people are satisfied with) is ludicrous. I agree that a few of the items like insuring kids till age 26 or pre-existing conditions helps a lot of people but to jeopardize a nation's economy is scary.

Am I correct to assume that if one or both of your nephews are injured in an accident, or get diagnosed with a serious illness, they or their family will pay the bill since there is no insurance. Or am I, the other taxpayers, & the government going to pay?

Looks to me like the same people will pay for it that you are complaining about paying with Ocare. At least with Ocare, your nephews will be paying for their own healthcare! I like that better.

BTW, our health care system was overhauled before - Medicare. This isn't the first time & won't be the last, IMO.

The nation's economy is not jeopardized because Ocare has not started - until tomorrow. It's possible it will be a success & not cause harm - no one knows, unless we have a time traveler from the future in the group. Again, if the federal budget is damaged, there are lots of other ways to cut costs, not cut the healthcare of Americans - so why blame Ocare - let's blame poor spending - apply your fear there.

I think your statistic on the "majority" likes the current healthcare system (current until midnight) is incorrect. Obama won supporting Ocare, Romney lost saying he would get rid of Ocare, Senate Dems were added running on Ocare. Looks to me like democracy has spoken better than your statistic.

 

[Colleen27]

My daughter's friends on Medicaid saw high risk specialists w/in 1 week.

We already pay taxes to help the poor with healthcare. I don't like the gov't's arm twisting with this healthcare plan.

Medicaid isn't uninsured. And most adults don't have access to it, no matter how poor they are. In my state, there is NO - none, zip, zero, zilch - medical assistance available to non-pregnant adults unless they fall under the medicare umbrella. Medicaid quite simply does not cover adults... Or more accurately *did* not cover adults, past tense - the ACA changed that, though the changes don't go into effect for a few more months, and now working poor adults will have access to that program for the first time.

Can't wait - my mother in law hasn't had any care for herself for years. Her husband had a horrid diabetic episode that landed him in the hospital and crippled them financially. He will never work again, and she's trying to do it all alone on a farm no less. I worry about her every day and am so grateful she will soon get care she desperately needs.

That's where I'm at too. I keep going back and forth on whether I should bow out of this discussion because it is such a touchy subject right now... A friend of the family recently got the news that she has untreatable cancer, and it came after at least a year of not feeling right but not going to the doctor because of money woes. And I don't care how you spin it, that shouldn't happen. Someone who goes to work every day, even if it is cobbling together multiple part-time jobs because that was the best she could do when she reentered the workforce after her divorce, shouldn't end up with a death sentence because of the cost of seeking medical care.

You would think from the mainstream media that half the country had no health insurance and were laying dying in hospitals that wouldn't treat them! And don't forget that some of that 16% are offered insurance, but decide not to purchase. I have two nephews (young and healthy) who work in the construction industry, and their employer has insurance but they just declined due to not wanting to spend the money at this time in their lives. So I wonder what the uninsured figure really is?
To overhaul an entire nation's healthcare (which a majority of people are satisfied with) is ludicrous. I agree that a few of the items like insuring kids till age 26 or pre-existing conditions helps a lot of people but to jeopardize a nation's economy is scary.

So basically, 16% of our nation's citizens are disposable but you agree with the provisions that are of the most help to those who can already afford health care. You do realize that the mandate is the only reason the pre-existing condition rules can work, right? Otherwise there'd be no reason to sign up for insurance until facing a medical crisis, and the entire insurance model would collapse under the imbalance of not enough people paying premiums/too many making claims.

And as far as not buying insurance, how much of that is inability to do so? The employer subsidy in the construction industry is often extremely low or non-existent. For laborers, they're often paying the full premium and the only benefit is access to the group pricing. We know a lot of guys who turn down the insurance they're offered for that reason... because when you're making $8-10/hr, you can't afford a couple hundred bucks a month for insurance and still make ends meet.

 

[Robbi]

Medicaid isn't uninsured. And most adults don't have access to it, no matter how poor they are. In my state, there is NO - none, zip, zero, zilch - medical assistance available to non-pregnant adults unless they fall under the medicare umbrella. Medicaid quite simply does not cover adults... Or more accurately *did* not cover adults, past tense - the ACA changed that, though the changes don't go into effect for a few more months, and now working poor adults will have access to that program for the first time.



That's where I'm at too. I keep going back and forth on whether I should bow out of this discussion because it is such a touchy subject right now... A friend of the family recently got the news that she has untreatable cancer, and it came after at least a year of not feeling right but not going to the doctor because of money woes. And I don't care how you spin it, that shouldn't happen. Someone who goes to work every day, even if it is cobbling together multiple part-time jobs because that was the best she could do when she reentered the workforce after her divorce, shouldn't end up with a death sentence because of the cost of seeking medical care.



So basically, 16% of our nation's citizens are disposable but you agree with the provisions that are of the most help to those who can already afford health care. You do realize that the mandate is the only reason the pre-existing condition rules can work, right? Otherwise there'd be no reason to sign up for insurance until facing a medical crisis, and the entire insurance model would collapse under the imbalance of not enough people paying premiums/too many making claims.

And as far as not buying insurance, how much of that is inability to do so? The employer subsidy in the construction industry is often extremely low or non-existent. For laborers, they're often paying the full premium and the only benefit is access to the group pricing. We know a lot of guys who turn down the insurance they're offered for that reason... because when you're making $8-10/hr, you can't afford a couple hundred bucks a month for insurance and still make ends meet.

Our state does provide care for the poor which is why I think this whole mess should have been left up to each state to decide. Those that want it, go for it. Those that don't need it, leave alone.

 

[annaaidan99]

Our state does provide care for the poor which is why I think this whole mess should have been left up to each state to decide. Those that want it, go for it. Those that don't need it, leave alone.

If your state is Louisiana, which I'm guessing...then no it doesn't unless you are pregnant (and strictly for pregnancy) or a child.

 

[Muushka]

Our state does provide care for the poor which is why I think this whole mess should have been left up to each state to decide. Those that want it, go for it. Those that don't need it, leave alone.

No! Don't you see?? The Federal government knows what everyone needs.
States as laboratories of democracy??? No way! The federal government knows best!

 

[Robbi]

If your state is Louisiana, which I'm guessing...then no it doesn't unless you are pregnant (and strictly for pregnancy) or a child.

It is and everyone in my housekeeper's family is covered. There are toddlers, teens, 20's, 30's , 50's, and 70's. None are pregnant. My housekeeper in her 70's is enrolled in Medicare.