ObamaCare Info

[cmwade77]

There also comes a profound, depressing, and demoralizing sense of futility when you're working 60 or 70 hours a week and always have it in the back of your mind that you're one injury away from losing everything, when you're avoiding seeing doctors at all because you can't afford a diagnosis that would put insurance even further out of reach. And it doesn't help when the well-off tell you that it is for your own good.

You're only seeing one side - the ones who get treatment. You're not seeing the benefits for the families who need to come up with up-front money before getting treatment for cancer, the diabetic who goes without care until his disease has done enough damage for him to qualify for disability, the woman who is given weeks to live because the time she spent not going to a doctor she can't afford gave the cancer enough time to progress to the point of hopelessness.

It has been proven that charitable organizations don't go nearly far enough to meet need, that their budgets shrink at the very time the need grows, and that those with the most to give tend not to choose poverty-oriented causes. We give more than we can comfortably afford, but it isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to the need that exists even in our little community.

Yes, I care about my kids' and grandkids' futures. I care about the fact that our health insurance costs have more than doubled in the last decade and continue to rise by double digit percentages every year. The path we're on right now is not sustainable. We are heading down a road where two of the most essential aspects of a long and prosperous life - education and health care - are already out of reach of the lower and working classes and are heading out of reach of the middle class as well. I don't want to see this country become what is taking shape around us - a nation sharply divided between a professional class with access to the best health care and education in the world and a service class making near-poverty wages to bolster the stock portfolios of the "ruling" class while relying upon the uncertainties of charity for basic needs like health care.

The problem is with Obamacare those costs will rise at exponential rates instead of simple double digits making healthcare unaffordable for everyone within 5 years.

 

[Colleen27]

What ever happen to personal responsibility?

I Keep going back and forth from being angry because the government has decided that the insurance that we currently have is too good, so they must out law it.(aka tax it out of being offered from employers)

To the fact that I have moral obligation to help the citizens that cannot work, or are truly disabled and the old that have work long and hard no matte what $$$ they made.

My real question is when is enough, enough?
What will I give up next, to support citizens?

Maybe the rest of the world has the right idea about socialist healthcare, but then we still see the same problem because your not "rich" your life is only worth x and x to government in care.

Don't know what the answer is.

For everyone that's throwing out the "lucky" I'm only lucky in the fact that I have taken care of myself and worked hard to get where I'm. I don't call it luck at all it was a decision to move from the urban schools (hard core ghetto) to the upper class with lots of fing hard work and some ups and downs.

Personal responsibility works in a culture of responsibility. It doesn't work in a vacuum, where individuals are the only ones expected to be responsible. "Personal responsibility" began to break down along the same timeframe as "corporate responsibility", respect for the value of a day's work, and other common considerations.

And for all of us fortunate enough to come together over a shared interest in a particular luxury there's been a degree of luck. No man is an island and none is immune to the disasters that ruin some lives. Success demands three things, in my view - natural ability, hard work, and good fortune. Many people work extremely hard but lack either the natural ability or the good fortune to build any real success from their best efforts.

 

[lauradis]

For you, but not for everyone. I would never call BS on that. I've seen people stuck in this. It's possible to get out, but like the pp said, one slip and that could be it. It's impossible to generalize that what is true for one person is true for everyone.

This is mean but you cannot save everyone there is something call natural selection.

They aren't stuck every one has a chance to be better or worst then where they came from.

Urban kids have more support to get out then any other class of kids. That's a fact. If your parents are poor or your are a teen with kids they throw money at you to go to college sure it isn't ivy,

One slip is covered we have insurance to cover disability for more then 60 percent of our income and life insurance and home insurance and auto insurance, long term disability and until Jan 1 awesome health insurance (kiss that good bye). So see I took personal responsibility over asking for life time of give me hand outs.

 

[lauradis]

Personal responsibility works in a culture of responsibility. It doesn't work in a vacuum, where individuals are the only ones expected to be responsible. "Personal responsibility" began to break down along the same timeframe as "corporate responsibility", respect for the value of a day's work, and other common considerations.

And for all of us fortunate enough to come together over a shared interest in a particular luxury there's been a degree of luck. No man is an island and none is immune to the disasters that ruin some lives. Success demands three things, in my view - natural ability, hard work, and good fortune. Many people work extremely hard but lack either the natural ability or the good fortune to build any real success from their best efforts.

So basically what your saying is "we the people" should be responsibly for the unlucky or the slackers of natural ability.

Then natural selection comes into play.

ps love your post the best

 

[annaaidan99]

This is mean but you cannot save everyone there is something call natural selection. They aren't stuck every one has a chance to be better or worst then where they came from. Urban kids have more support to get out then any other class of kids. That's a fact. If your parents are poor or your are a teen with kids they throw money at you to go to college sure it isn't ivy, One slip is covered we have insurance to cover disability for more then 60 percent of our income and life insurance and home insurance and auto insurance, long term disability and until Jan 1 awesome health insurance (kiss that good bye). So see I took personal responsibility over asking for life time of give me hand outs.

And some people will feel that way. I don't tell anyone how to feel. I know in my own case, we too were upper middle class, well insured, and felt secure with the way it was. Then the unlucky happened. I was illegally fired, my child died. My husband became mentally unstable, and is no longer with us as a contributor to any capacity. I returned to school (despite having no eligibility for financial aid) and have survived on next to nothing since then. I cannot afford health care for myself. It's not a matter of personal responsibility if you absolutely cannot afford insurance at any level.

It also does no good to argue that line...because until the hospitals refuse treatment without pay it is always an issue.

 

[aw14]

Ok, it's subjective - but it's MY posted "lucky", so please see my point!

You are "lucky" that you got thru your thesis & survived your ruptured spleen & your parents pushed you. That doesn't say you didn't provide the drive & the work - I didn't say that in my original post. It's simply that drive & work is not enough - you must have the "luck" that allows you to use that work & drive. You were lucky to be born with the mental capacity. You were lucky to survive a serious physical situation. You are lucky to have been born to parents who "pushed" you. My point was that not everyone is as lucky, so they may need serious help. Note - I was not addressing whether that help should come from Ocare or not.

Everyone does not have the choices you had - so you are lucky. A blind student cannot "chose" to see, a dead patient cannot chose to survive the ruptured spleen, & children of drugged or otherwise damaged parents cannot chose new parents who will push them to succeed. Note - I'm not saying they don't have other choices, just that you were lucky to have the choices you had/have.

RE: student loans, etc., I don't know where that came from in reference to my post. But not everyone is lucky enough to get a college education. Not everyone is as lucky as you. Not everyone has the mental capacity for college - unlucky. Some must work to support loved ones & therefore can't go to college - giving souls, but unlucky. Some may not be able to attend college because of of health/disability reasons - unlucky. On & on - millions of stories out there in the real world.

you are right...there are countless stories. However, for those that dont have the luck as you put it, does not mean that it is the responsibility to the lucky to provide it for them. No where in the history of this country is it written that those who dont or can't will be provided for by those who did. To mandate that through government is outlandishly ridiculous and again, no more than wealth redistribution. Robin Hood is not the route we want.

Please note, I am not using the term Socialism in my quote as a statement here but I think the quote holds true:

The problem with Socialism(wealth redistribution) is eventually you run out of other peoples money ~ Margaret Thatcher

 

[aw14]

So, then, the objection isnt being forced to pay for it. It's the manner and specifics of how you're being forced to pay or it. That's very different than what you said.

Again, I'm staying out of the obamacare specific debate. But many of those debating are debating theory and not reality.

As for the middle class, as I demonstrated, they're already being hurt. Either with higher insurance premiums, higher out f pocket costs, higher taxes to fund Medicare/Medicaid...or all of the above.

Because the reality is, when there is paying to be done, it's the middle class that does it. No matter who is in the White House, or what ideology they subscribe to.



It's hard to find that slope, given so much is influenced by our current terrible employment numbers. And much of that is on the backs of manufacturing pretty much disappearing. It's a new dawn, and it remains to be seen if we can redirect our workforce to adapt to it.
I don't think people are nearly as keen to be on the dole...at least most of them...as you surmise. Yes, there s abuse and people who take advantage. But I don't remotely think that is the majority.

I couldnt agree more with the first part. This is not a partisan issue in any way. Both parties are crooks and have slowly decimated "main street". (figured good for a disney board)

I do disagree with the last part. When people are living on $30K on government handouts and not working (yes it is that much for many) why work?

 

[pilferk]

I'll let you know tomorrow night for sure but seems the affordable care act will help me. So I'm not against it per se.

BUT THERE IS NOTHING. Not a single substantive thing in the act that will cut the cost of healthcare in this country. It's not entirely unlikely that as a percentage of GDP it will go up becasue of the ACA as people that didn't get care now will be getting it- do you think that will happen for free? There will be costs so that these folks can get the care they should.

Just because the PRICE of something goes down (particularly because of a subsidy), doesn't mean the cost of it will go down.

there's some little nibbles around the edges to try and start some trials to pay for quality care instead of quantity of care. But really there's not much more.

Healthcare is not getting cheaper, it's just getting subsidized by people that can afford to pay more taxes. No judgement on if that is right or wrong, but things are NOT getting cheaper.

Neither side wants to have a grown up conversation about the right ways to cut costs. Part of that legitimately has to be some amount of rationing. There should be a grown up conversation about what should be rationed or not. What should be paid for or not.

There are some things that could have some effect on cost. Simply the fact that providers will be paid for their services more often will mean some costs could decrease. Also possible for drug costs.

But it does not address some of the largere elephants in the room...that is true.

 

[pilferk]

I couldnt agree more with the first part. This is not a partisan issue in any way. Both parties are crooks and have slowly decimated "main street". (figured good for a disney board)

I do disagree with the last part. When people are living on $30K on government handouts and not working (yes it is that much for many) why work?

The amount is possible to obtain with an overly large family...or on disability. In one scenario, you are caring for upwards of 8 people...which means 30k for the household isn't all that much. In the other...well, disability is a different discussion.


For many reasons. Firstly because government subsistence is just that. It's hardly prosperity. Secondly because it provides greater personal satisfaction to work. There are others...there are good studies out there about this. Largely, people able to work want to work.

I mean...would you choose to be on subsidy?

Again, not to say there aren't system abusers and misusers. There are. But not nearly at the level people insist.

 

[pilferk]

If this has to do with reimbursement rates (and i suspect that number does since it's probably the easiest way to come up with the better part of a trillion) they'll never make the cuts. THey have been "cutting" dr's reimbursement rates for years on paper to pretend they are controlling costs then the time comes and they change the rules.

It does not.

It has to do with he advantage care admins premium. Reimbursement won't change. The admins just won't be getting the extra 15 to 40 cents per dollar to pocket. It was always the plan for that extra to be cut, as the administrators passed startup phase...which is what that premium was meant to fund.

 

[pilferk]

BS I grow up in that urban school for more then half my education and sit in upper middle class hood now. Not by marriage but because I decided to get the f out.

So total BS.

Really? So you were in an urban, poverty stricken school system...within the past 15 to 20 years...surrounded by violence, and feel your education in the classroom was equivalent to a suburban, well funded, relatively safe school system?

Interesting.

Because I interact with those folks all the time as part of our injury prevention programs. There is also ample literature on the subject that is well researched and widely accepted.

So while your anecdotal info is "nice" but I don't find it all that compelling.

 

[lauradis]

There are some things that could have some effect on cost. Simply the fact that providers will be paid for their services more often will mean some costs could decrease. Also possible for drug costs.

But it does not address some of the largere elephants in the room...that is true.

This might happen, but in the adjustment period what other business will suffer.

If you spend x amt more on something it has to come from some where.

second jobs to pay for health care ins?
Skip eating out?
Skip going to movies?
Skip Disney?

 

[pilferk]

This is mean but you cannot save everyone there is something call natural selection.

They aren't stuck every one has a chance to be better or worst then where they came from.

Urban kids have more support to get out then any other class of kids. That's a fact. If your parents are poor or your are a teen with kids they throw money at you to go to college sure it isn't ivy,

One slip is covered we have insurance to cover disability for more then 60 percent of our income and life insurance and home insurance and auto insurance, long term disability and until Jan 1 awesome health insurance (kiss that good bye). So see I took personal responsibility over asking for life time of give me hand outs.

There are grants and scholarships for the underprivileged....and more applicants by far than dollars. And the trio programs have been losing ground for almost 25 years.

And those students are still required to pass basic entrance parameters (unless they are going on athletic scholarships...then all but the standardized testing recs are waived). You are talking about at risk schools with grad rates at or under 50%.

20 years ago, children from middle income families were 10 times more likely to have a college degree by age 24. that is according to a well proofed study by Gladieux. More recent studies show similar ....or slightly worse...numbers.

 

[pilferk]

This might happen, but in the adjustment period what other business will suffer.

If you spend x amt more on something it has to come from some where.

second jobs to pay for health care ins?
Skip eating out?
Skip going to movies?
Skip Disney?

Agree. Short term, nothing changes in terms of cost.

But even the costs that are effected are marginal, compared to some of the other, larger, more fixed costs ( the ever rising cost of malpractice insurance, for example).

But the op said there was nothing that addressed costs, which isn't exactly true.

 

[lauradis]

Really? So you were in an urban, poverty stricken school system...within the past 15 to 20 years...surrounded by violence, and feel your education in the classroom was equivalent to a suburban, well funded, relatively safe school system?

Interesting.

Because I interact with those folks all the time as part of our injury prevention programs. There is also ample literature on the subject that is well researched and widely accepted.

So while your anecdotal info is "nice" but I don't find it all that compelling.

"nice" anecdotal info

have you gone to bed as a child hungry and happy to go to school because they feed you I have
have you watched roaches climb up walls as you try to sleep I have
have you watched your nebor get stabbed by her husband I have

Oh the list of "nice anecdotal info" could go on.

The government is good at one thing and that is throwing money at problems and not solving them.

So no I lived the urban school environments for half my childhood from K to 7th and decided that this is not what I want out of life.

They are not stuck.

 

[Colleen27]

The problem is with Obamacare those costs will rise at exponential rates instead of simple double digits making healthcare unaffordable for everyone within 5 years.

You realize that's impossible, right? Insurers and medical providers aren't interested in pricing themselves out of business, and exponential cost increases would do just that even with the inelasticity of demand for health care.

This is mean but you cannot save everyone there is something call natural selection.

They aren't stuck every one has a chance to be better or worst then where they came from.

Urban kids have more support to get out then any other class of kids. That's a fact. If your parents are poor or your are a teen with kids they throw money at you to go to college sure it isn't ivy,

One slip is covered we have insurance to cover disability for more then 60 percent of our income and life insurance and home insurance and auto insurance, long term disability and until Jan 1 awesome health insurance (kiss that good bye). So see I took personal responsibility over asking for life time of give me hand outs.

Natural selection is a concept that applies to wildlife, not to mankind.

The help available to poor kids is greatly exaggerated, in my experience. A small grant and huge loans, massive debt that still falls short of covering ancillary costs like transportation and (for young parents) childcare, a need for remedial classes because the schools in poor areas don't educate kids to college-readiness. Much of our college aid system is set up for the middle class - parents who have the stable income and creditworthiness to co-sign when students hit the Stafford loan can.

And one slip is covered now. You're telling me there has never been a point in your life, as you were working your way up to success, where you didn't have great health insurance, disability insurance, and every other possible protection money can by in place? That's where luck comes into play - that you don't need crippling debt to get through school, that you don't fall ill before the insurance is in place, that you never find yourself cancelled or hit your lifetime maximum.

I couldnt agree more with the first part. This is not a partisan issue in any way. Both parties are crooks and have slowly decimated "main street". (figured good for a disney board)

I do disagree with the last part. When people are living on $30K on government handouts and not working (yes it is that much for many) why work?

I agree with your first statement. What we have right now is an excellent example of the best democracy that money can buy... and both sides are more interested in representing their owners than their voters. Without the money, people wouldn't know who to vote for anyway in our age of exorbitantly expensive media driven campaigns.

As far as the second, most people who receive aid don't get the full package. Housing assistance, for example, is often cited as a high-value program but little is said of years' long waiting lists. Utility assistance comes up but seldom does anyone mention the caps on that aid. Plus most assistance funds are tightly controlled - housing aid is only available for certain properties (most of which you wouldn't want to walk through at night much less live in), food stamps can only be used on food, WIC for specific items. There's very little room for spending choices for people on assistance, no ability to economize in one area to be able to have a little extra in another.

And the question "Why work?" overlooks the fact that most programs have a phase out rather than a cutoff, so someone working and receiving aid has a much higher standard of living than someone living on aid alone.

 

[njcarita]

well since i pay 1291 a month for health insurance ( been paying our own for 18 years)on a low income........ i attempted to log on the exchanges just to see what the rates would be on this new plan that i am not sure how i feel about yet...cause honestly dont like goverment running things as it is........ and my state of NJ exchange isnt working....cant get past step 3 in setting up accound .. and been on hold for 30 minutes just to type in a chat question............... this should be fun...............maybe i will try later.......... after work........ for you guys from NJ got a flash back feeling to our old department of motor vehicles .......

 

[pilferk]

"nice" anecdotal info

have you gone to bed as a child hungry and happy to go to school because they feed you I have
have you watched roaches climb up walls as you try to sleep I have
have you watched your nebor get stabbed by her husband I have

Oh the list of "nice anecdotal info" could go on.

The government is good at one thing and that is throwing money at problems and not solving them.

So no I lived the urban school environments for half my childhood from K to 7th and decided that this is not what I want out of life.

They are not stuck.

Yup, that's anecdote. And while powerful, and emotionally evocative, it only tells your story.

YOU were not stuck.

But YOU can't really speak for, or to, anyone else...or the homogenized group at large. Data does that relatively well, though.

But, as I said..and as your anecdote shows..it's not impossible to get out. It's just very very very difficult. Much more difficult than, say, a kid in a suburban, largely middle class, school system? And it has gotten worse...not better...over the past 15+ years.

That's data talking, not anecdote.

Couple bad breaks and they ARE stuck.

Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps takes more than just the will to do it. It takes solid bootstraps that won't break.

And again, I'm not arguing the good and bad of entitlements...obamacare or any other. Just the realities of the world as it s today.

 

[Colleen27]

This is mean but you cannot save everyone there is something call natural selection.

I have to say, although I couldn't possibly disagree more strongly with your position I have to respect the honesty in calling it what it is. Most advocates of social Darwinism hem and haw about medicaid and charity hospitals and sliding-scale clinics, though I don't believe any reasonably aware American can honestly believe those systems to be adequate to meet the needs of the uninsured. Few have the strength of conviction to call it what it is - natural selection and survival of the fittest, in which the deaths and suffering of some of those who lack the economic resources to obtain health care is an acceptable trade for better care for those who can.

well since i pay 1291 a month for health insurance ( been paying our own for 18 years)on a low income........ i attempted to log on the exchanges just to see what the rates would be on this new plan that i am not sure how i feel about yet...cause honestly dont like goverment running things as it is........ and my state of NJ exchange isnt working....cant get past step 3 in setting up accound .. and been on hold for 30 minutes just to type in a chat question............... this should be fun...............maybe i will try later.......... after work........ for you guys from NJ got a flash back feeling to our old department of motor vehicles .......

It is the very first day of a new and much anticipated system. There are bound to be wait times... No different from trying to get a new-generation Apple product on release day, or an ADR at Be Our Guest when Disney first made them available, or even calling to address a problem with a banking or utility issue first thing on a Monday morning. Let the initial rush subside and the experience will run more smoothly.

 

[pilferk]

I have to say, although I couldn't possibly disagree more strongly with your position I have to respect the honesty in calling it what it is. Most advocates of social Darwinism hem and haw about medicaid and charity hospitals and sliding-scale clinics, though I don't believe any reasonably aware American can honestly believe those systems to be adequate to meet the needs of the uninsured. Few have the strength of conviction to call it what it is - natural selection and survival of the fittest, in which the deaths and suffering of some of those who lack the economic resources to obtain health care is an acceptable trade for better care for those who can.
.

I can't help but be reminded of a Dickens quote from a very famous story:

"If they would rather die, they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population"