Not Everyone Is on the Same Boat (EMH)

[Nezumi Fan]

Excellent article in today’s NYT about disparities not seen since the days of Teddy Roosevelt and the cattle cars of the Titanic for those who can enjoy the "premium" experiences on cruise lines and, yes, at Walt Disney World:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/24/business/economy/velvet-rope-economy.html?_r=0

Aside from the obvious relevance to our ongoing discussion here regarding the recent $149 "add-on" ticket for premium access to WDW, what makes the article especially interesting to me is the contrast between two cruise lines: one of which believes that, once a passenger leaves their room, their experience should be identical to that other passengers (even the wealthy), while the other is creating "resorts within resorts" with pools, decks, and dining completely segregated, and even hidden, from the hoi polloi on the rest of the ship.

Disturbing to me is that I feel both things at the same time: part of me wants a more egalitarian experience (you pay the same park admission as anyone else, you get the same day) while the other part of me would prefer that the privilege be, indeed, completely hidden from my view.

Here's the quote, in the context of modern air travel, that neatly sums up the dilemma:

“'If I’m in the back of the plane, I want to hiss at the people in first class,' said (Yale professor of management) Mr. Nalebuff, who has advised many Fortune 100 companies. 'If I’m up front, I cringe as people walk by.'”

What's your take?

 

[georgina]

I'm not sure why they mentioned Discovery Cove as a segregated perk. It is a completely separate park, not just a secluded part of Sea World.

People have always paid more for more exclusive experiences - and first class plane tickets are one example. Should everyone on the plane get the same seat and pay the same amount? I suspect many would complain about how high priced the tickets would be. I'm content to fly cheap and sit in the back. Cruise lines have let those in higher categories off the ship first for a long time too I think. Again, I would rather cruise for less and let them have their separate part (not better lifeboats though!)

 

[eyehartdisney]

Terry Pratchett wrote a book very similar to that article called Raising Steam. An interesting read, both for the article and the book.

 

[Mikie]

Very interesting! Clearly, there are such different outlooks and, as the article states "psychological buttons" to push. One cruise line discusses having the upscale perks, but keeping them very exclusive and rather hidden, whereas another line kind of wants the "masses" to get a peek of what they're missing, presumably so that they aspire to pay for it themselves one day.

It makes perfect sense for the businesses to "go where the money is". The article hinted at, but didn't go too deep into the implications, though, of catering (through innovation and new offerings) exclusively to the elite. By definition, the 1% are, well, only 1%. Everything is cyclical and the reason business models moved away from such class-based service after the time of the Titanic is because there was money to be made in wooing the much larger base of middle-class travelers. Frankly, it's a great time to travel if you value spending your money on elite experiences and being treated like the hoi palloi. Less so if you're a middle class traveler, who's currently less of a valued customer. How sustainable is the business model, though?

 

[gorkt]

I read and commented on that article.

Last year I went on a Norwegian cruise with my husband, and I got a deeply discounted upsell to one of the Haven suites. Normally this would be a $5000 per person suite that I ended up paying $1500 pp for. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity for us, and while I did enjoy some aspects of it, I didn't hang out in the Haven suite too often because it was so isolated from the other passengers. It was just too lonely and quiet for me. I like the hustle and bustle of having people around and part of the enjoyment of a cruise is talking to different people from all different walks of life.

It really did strike me that someone raised in that level of luxury would be less likely to develop much experience of empathy for other people.

 

[Mikie]

I read and commented on that article.

Last year I went on a Norwegian cruise with my husband, and I got a deeply discounted upsell to one of the Haven suites. Normally this would be a $5000 per person suite that I ended up paying $1500 pp for. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity for us, and while I did enjoy some aspects of it, I didn't hang out in the Haven suite too often because it was so isolated from the other passengers. It was just too lonely and quiet for me. I like the hustle and bustle of having people around and part of the enjoyment of a cruise is talking to different people from all different walks of life.

It really did strike me that someone raised in that level of luxury would be less likely to develop much experience of empathy for other people.

Very interesting. It's not just about who can afford certain upscale experiences, but a very specific niche of who values the whole experience. For something like this, I sometimes picture the wealthy celebrity who has an entourage and basically brings the party with them.

 

[Davey Jones II]

I'm not sure why they mentioned Discovery Cove as a segregated perk. It is a completely separate park, not just a secluded part of Sea World.

People have always paid more for more exclusive experiences - and first class plane tickets are one example. Should everyone on the plane get the same seat and pay the same amount? I suspect many would complain about how high priced the tickets would be. I'm content to fly cheap and sit in the back. Cruise lines have let those in higher categories off the ship first for a long time too I think. Again, I would rather cruise for less and let them have their separate part (not better lifeboats though!)

On an airplane, first class and business class passengers are subsidizing the rest of us. In other words, if they weren't overpaying for their perks, the rest of us would likely have to pay more for our regular seats.

I'm not at all sure that the same is true of WDW, however. When you consider all the extra millions generated by people who can pay for an "exclusive" WDW vacation, where is that money going? Is it being used to enhance the guest experience? Very doubtful, considering the recent arbitrary, penny-pinching cutbacks. Is it being used to keep the price of regular park tickets down? There's no evidence of that either, given the frequent, faster-than-inflation price hikes.

No, as far as I can tell, all that money is going straight into the pockets of shareholders, and to enhance the bonuses of the executives. And all the upcharge events do impact the guest experience: rides open longer must be refurbished more often; reserved viewing areas means less quality viewing spots for regular guests, etc.

And there's also no end in sight; the company keeps adding upcharge events at a furious pace. To mix two metaphors, they are hell bent on killing the golden goose, by finding new ways to milk this cash cow.

After all, someone has to pay for the blunders of the alleged geniuses in the executive suite. One thing's for sure, it won't be the executives themselves!

 

[MakiraMarlena]

EMH is free if you're staying onsite.

Before there was an extra cost event, you could go to EMH if you weren't staying onsite, but you couldn't ride anything.

Wouldn't there have been the same resentment for those staying onsite as there are for those who purchased the event?

Fastpass is free and available to anyone, but those waiting in the standby line still get mad when guests with fastpasses walk past them, especially if they didn't realize that anybody could get fastpasses.

The truly egalitarian thing would be to get rid of all of it. All separate events, all fastpasses, all ADRs and just go back to everybody standing in the same line.

 

[Ninja Mom]

On an airplane, first class and business class passengers are subsidizing the rest of us. In other words, if they weren't overpaying for their perks, the rest of us would likely have to pay more for our regular seats.

I'm not at all sure that the same is true of WDW, however. When you consider all the extra millions generated by people who can pay for an "exclusive" WDW vacation, where is that money going? Is it being used to enhance the guest experience? Very doubtful, considering the recent arbitrary, penny-pinching cutbacks. Is it being used to keep the price of regular park tickets down? There's no evidence of that either, given the frequent, faster-than-inflation price hikes.

No, as far as I can tell, all that money is going straight into the pockets of shareholders, and to enhance the bonuses of the executives. And all the upcharge events do impact the guest experience: rides open longer must be refurbished more often; reserved viewing areas means less quality viewing spots for regular guests, etc.

And there's also no end in sight; the company keeps adding upcharge events at a furious pace. To mix two metaphors, they are hell bent on killing the golden goose, by finding new ways to milk this cash cow.

After all, someone has to pay for the blunders of the alleged geniuses in the executive suite. One thing's for sure, it won't be the executives themselves!

This post very accurately and eloquently hits the nail on the head of the new direction that the leadership of Disney parks is taking with them. The focus of a visit to a Disney park stopped being about the experience and has been turned into a cash rake. It's really sad to see when a beloved company takes a turn to "The Dark Side" and puts profits above everything else. This is unsustainable and I certainly hope that management sees that this new direction is the wrong way to go.

Eventually the customers are going to realize that the high prices they are paying for a Disney vacation are not matching the experience received. There are too many other vacation options that are affordable and worthwhile and once Disney runs it's reputation into the ground it will be a very tough, if not impossible road back to being the beloved experience it once was.

~NM

 

[maxiesmom]

This post very accurately and eloquently hits the nail on the head of the new direction that the leadership of Disney parks is taking with them. The focus of a visit to a Disney park stopped being about the experience and has been turned into a cash rake. It's really sad to see when a beloved company takes a turn to "The Dark Side" and puts profits above everything else. This is unsustainable and I certainly hope that management sees that this new direction is the wrong way to go.

Eventually the customers are going to realize that the high prices they are paying for a Disney vacation are not matching the experience received. There are too many other vacation options that are affordable and worthwhile and once Disney runs it's reputation into the ground it will be a very tough, if not impossible road back to being the beloved experience it once was.

~NM

All of that is opinion only, and one I don't agree with. I still feel I am getting high value for my dollar at WDW. And I am still free to go elsewhere if I ever change my mind.

I also find the thought of Disney only being able to offer one experience ridiculous. No different then telling Chevy they can only make one kind of car, and they all have to have the exact same package on them. Or telling a restaurant they can only offer one kind of steak, and no subbing out sides.

 

[jalpert]

Is this really true? Southwest airlines comes to mind, all coach, has the most perks (free checked bags), and usually the lowest price, even if you factor in a $15/pp early bird for your pick of seats.

On an airplane, first class and business class passengers are subsidizing the rest of us. In other words, if they weren't overpaying for their perks, the rest of us would likely have to pay more for our regular seats.

 

[minnie mum]

Is this really true? Southwest airlines comes to mind, all coach, has the most perks (free checked bags), and usually the lowest price, even if you factor in a $15/pp early bird for your pick of seats.

I believe the person you quoted was referring to the more traditional airlines, not the discount airlines of which SW is probably the most popular in the US.

You aren't likely to find a lot of business fliers, or wealthier travellers, who want the bare bones flying experience of the discount airlines. We are by no means wealthy, but I will opt for premium economy or BC on a traditional airline any day, especially if it is a long distance flight. If you've ever spent 14 hours on only one leg of a flight, you know why people who can afford it will opt to pay double or more for one of those lie flat pods.

 

[Kimberly9701]

All of that is opinion only, and one I don't agree with. I still feel I am getting high value for my dollar at WDW. And I am still free to go elsewhere if I ever change my mind.

I also find the thought of Disney only being able to offer one experience ridiculous. No different then telling Chevy they can only make one kind of car, and they all have to have the exact same package on them. Or telling a restaurant they can only offer one kind of steak, and no subbing out sides.

I'm so glad someone posted this.
Great example.

 

[Jadyreen1282]

All of that is opinion only, and one I don't agree with. I still feel I am getting high value for my dollar at WDW. And I am still free to go elsewhere if I ever change my mind.

I also find the thought of Disney only being able to offer one experience ridiculous. No different then telling Chevy they can only make one kind of car, and they all have to have the exact same package on them. Or telling a restaurant they can only offer one kind of steak, and no subbing out sides.

I agree. I don't think anything is a miss at Disney. I prefer a nice clean resort and am able to pay for it. Otherwise I'm staying at motel 6 in the Dells. How special is that.

 

[Nezumi Fan]

Terry Pratchett wrote a book very similar to that article called Raising Steam. An interesting read, both for the article and the book.

Thanks for the recommendation! I'm guessing it's one of the "Discworld" novels, right?

 

[ArwenMarie]

I don't mind stuff like this as long as it doesn't take away from the base experience. Example, I think the different resort levels at WDW are a nice option.

I think the danger with theme parks, specifically WDW, is that sometimes things they turn into upcharges were things that used to be available to everyone.

 

[Nezumi Fan]

I read and commented on that article.

Last year I went on a Norwegian cruise with my husband, and I got a deeply discounted upsell to one of the Haven suites. Normally this would be a $5000 per person suite that I ended up paying $1500 pp for. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity for us, and while I did enjoy some aspects of it, I didn't hang out in the Haven suite too often because it was so isolated from the other passengers. It was just too lonely and quiet for me. I like the hustle and bustle of having people around and part of the enjoyment of a cruise is talking to different people from all different walks of life.

It really did strike me that someone raised in that level of luxury would be less likely to develop much experience of empathy for other people.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. While I certainly do envy your opportunity to stay in such an "exclusive" suite (and wotta deal! wow!), I also take your point about missing the "hustle and bustle" of meeting different people. Perhaps one difference with the airplane metaphor is that, if everything goes as it should, there IS no hustle and bustle: we're all walled away, be it by seatbacks or first-class curtains or psychological walls, and meeting new people is limited to one's seatmate. The metaphor only goes so far.

 

[BusyP76]

What an interesting article! I like the option of paying more to enhance your vacation experience if you so choose. It's vacation afterall and everyone has different priorities of what they want. And each vacation is different. If you choose not to upgrade at every option or none at all then that is your choice! I choose to fly Southwest "wanna get away" flights and use the money saved from flying economy to staying in a better hotel or room class. I would like the option to pay for perfered viewing areas or seating at certain events. I choose to pay perfered viewing only for the events I like.
But what if I wanted every upgrade available? People seem to be horrified by that notion. I don't understand the pervasive attitude that spending money on vacation is "bad". We can probably all agree that saving money is GREAT but does that have to automatically make spending money a negative thing? If I plan a vacation and pick out all the things I want to do and then budget my finances for that amount why is that something to pick apart? Why is it "bad" if I don't choose the things that cost the least or least have a healthy balance of low cost vs high cost? In regards to WDW, it's here on these boards but also on others and in real life. How many times have you read or heard:

"How much are you spending on THAT?!?"
"The dining plan is such a waste of food and money. We would never do that!"
"Why are you staying at ______? You're not even going to be in your room very much!"
"How much do you think that view is actually worth?"
"You could stay longer if you didn't ______."

Sure, I love a discount! I actively look for discounts for our travels as I'm sure most people who are not in that 1% do. But sometimes, certain upgrades available for purchase appeal to travelers. If they can afford them then why do some people feel the need to disparage their choice to "upgrade"? Just because you find no worth or value in something does not mean the next person doesn't. There is an entire forum here (and on many other sites) for budgeting tips. It's looked on as desirable or commendable to save money. And I absolutely do see the value in that! But there seems to be an air of "that's a waste, over-the-top, unnecessary," towards anything paid extra that enhances someone's stay. And as a result of that, sometimes an almost defensive tone from the people who do choose to spend more. "It's a special occasion, we are only doing this because we got a great deal, we hardly ever go". One great thing about the DIS is it has helped me plan some amazing vacations for my family by giving me information (general and specific), showing me ways to save and also giving me ideas on what all my options are. Some of those options cost more money. I want to save money where I choose to and spend money where I choose to. What has value to one may not have value to another and so we should all feel free to spend or not according to our priorities and financial abilities.

 

[disneyseniors]

EMH is free if you're staying onsite.

Before there was an extra cost event, you could go to EMH if you weren't staying onsite, but you couldn't ride anything.

Wouldn't there have been the same resentment for those staying onsite as there are for those who purchased the event?

Fastpass is free and available to anyone, but those waiting in the standby line still get mad when guests with fastpasses walk past them, especially if they didn't realize that anybody could get fastpasses.

The truly egalitarian thing would be to get rid of all of it. All separate events, all fastpasses, all ADRs and just go back to everybody standing in the same line.

Good Idea! and I gotta tell you, I love your avatar. That dancing blue shark cracks me up

 

[DisneyWishes14]

The truly egalitarian thing would be to get rid of all of it. All separate events, all fastpasses, all ADRs and just go back to everybody standing in the same line.

Disney has never had an egalitarian system in its theme parks. Remember e-tickets? The notion that everyone's park experience used to be the same, is simply not true. Back in the day you literally had to pay to ride and those who paid more, rode more.

I'm not sure I understand the hullaballoo over spending more, getting more. Anyone staying onsite (and paying more to do so) is getting more than those staying offsite. You have more privileged access to ADR's, FP+, free parking, EMH, free ground transportation from the airport, etc. Should we thumb our noses at all onsite guests now because they paid more for their perks? That seems to be ok to most on these boards. CL seems to be ok, too. But mention a $149 after hours event and people get riled up. I'm not seeing much of a difference in these offerings. They are ALL pay more, get more.

We've stayed in the Haven twice on NCL and it was nice, but it didn't stop us from enjoying all other aspects of the ship or mingling with other people. On one of the cruises, Donny Osmond and his whole extended family were also sailing in the Haven, I imagine, so he could have some privacy. Simply for his own safety, I can't imagine he could or would have cruised with his family if that type of accommodation hadn't been available.