Not Everyone Is on the Same Boat (EMH)

[rwdavis2]

....
Here's the quote, in the context of modern air travel, that neatly sums up the dilemma:

“'If I’m in the back of the plane, I want to hiss at the people in first class,' said (Yale professor of management) Mr. Nalebuff, who has advised many Fortune 100 companies. 'If I’m up front, I cringe as people walk by.'”

What's your take?

We just flew first class this past week. Paid out of pocket. it has gotten much less expensive over the years as airlines figured out it was better to charge someone for the seat rather than giving out out as miles. I loved sitting there with the extra space and service and could not have cared less about the folks in the back. If they want the seat with more space then pay for it. The Professor as quoted is a moron.

 

[Ambear]

We just flew first class this past week. Paid out of pocket. it has gotten much less expensive over the years as airlines figured out it was better to charge someone for the seat rather than giving out out as miles. I loved sitting there with the extra space and service and could not have cared less about the folks in the back. If they want the seat with more space then pay for it. The Professor as quoted is a moron.

I just read this article today but it fits with this airline example. Not sure if it can be related to Disney, I've never felt angry at anyone who had a better experience than I.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/02/health/air-rage-first-class-airplane-seating-study/

 

[Mikie]

On an airplane, first class and business class passengers are subsidizing the rest of us. In other words, if they weren't overpaying for their perks, the rest of us would likely have to pay more for our regular seats.

We just flew first class this past week. Paid out of pocket. it has gotten much less expensive over the years as airlines figured out it was better to charge someone for the seat rather than giving out out as miles. I loved sitting there with the extra space and service and could not have cared less about the folks in the back. If they want the seat with more space then pay for it. The Professor as quoted is a moron.

I wondered about the truth of the first class situation. I have flown first many times, but always with full frequent flier points, or bought coach and upgraded with points, or back when my employer had a bulk deal with the airline and we flew first for a deep discount. I kind of assumed a lot (maybe even majority?) of first class seats were discounted or free like that. I haven't checked prices in a long time to see that they were more reasonably priced now.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I believe the person you quoted was referring to the more traditional airlines, not the discount airlines of which SW is probably the most popular in the US.

You aren't likely to find a lot of business fliers, or wealthier travellers, who want the bare bones flying experience of the discount airlines. We are by no means wealthy, but I will opt for premium economy or BC on a traditional airline any day, especially if it is a long distance flight. If you've ever spent 14 hours on only one leg of a flight, you know why people who can afford it will opt to pay double or more for one of those lie flat pods.

Well....SWA is a discount airline however they do have Business Select which is,at least from what I've seen, always in the mid-$400s PER LEG. Their Anytime Fare, also from what I've seen, starts in the $400s PER LEG but does get below $400 and both fares aren't for exotic places; it's just their normal cost.

While they don't get the luxury experience that other airlines do they do get to board early (for Business Select) and they earn a crap ton of points especially if using Business select; which in part is why people pay that much for them. There are actually quite a few business travelers (at least from what I've seen) on SWA because their RR program is one of the best value from what I've found (we have a Delta Skymiles card with Amex and it blows compared to SWA RR) and if you pare that with RR shopping, points given through rental car reservations, points given through e-rewards as well as random offers like Turbo Tax it all adds up.

I absolutely love SWA but they are not always the cheapest at least from my airport though I 90% fly with them (usually fly about once per year). Other discount airlines are for sure different (we don't have jetblue at my airport so I can't speak about them).

Something also to keep in mind it does also depend on how those plane tickets are being paid. If your company is paying for them,for example, and aren't a stickler on costs..there is a greater liklihood for those people to opt more expensive options.

 

[Mikie]

I must have read into the main article differently. . . I didn't think the main takeaway was "differentiation and elite experiences are bad" nor do I apply that thought to Disney upcharge events. Like at least one PP said, differentiation like on/offsite, deluxe/mod/value, parties/tours are all great options to tailor your trip.

I thought it was more like "industry trends are a focus on elite and super-elite experiences to the exclusion of innovation or emphasis on the base experience". I do think that seems to apply to Disney and it means that prices have increased for all visitors through base ticket and food increases and, for those who choose, extra ticket items. But all the creativity, innovation, new offerings seem to be only for those who choose to buy the elite experiences, which is disappointing for the majority (as I said above, by definition it's the other 99%) who either can't or don't choose to put themselves in that group, though they also pay the higher prices.

 

[rwdavis2]

I wondered about the truth of the first class situation. I have flown first many times, but always with full frequent flier points, or bought coach and upgraded with points, or back when my employer had a bulk deal with the airline and we flew first for a deep discount. I kind of assumed a lot (maybe even majority?) of first class seats were discounted or free like that. I haven't checked prices in a long time to see that they were more reasonably priced now.

Reasonable is obviously relative. We paid $1300 round trip from Baltimore to Seattle. West Coast prices used to be $3000 or more for first class. Usually more. Some times you can get first class for $1000 round trip out west. A friend just traveled for work to Los Angeles for about $950 and that was just United Economy Plus.

 

[ellie05]

While the disparity of incomes is becoming a true problem. This kind of expirience has always been provided. For example club level at hotels, first class in flights, different hotel categories within a company, etc. I don't think this is something new. While maybe they didn't separate it before ships have always offer suites. Disney has been providing up charge experiences for a long long time aka dessert parties, bbb, firework cruises, private tours. The problem that I have with the MKAD has nothing to do with being an upcharge. By the looks of how things have been going for the event things don't look good.

 

[Mikie]

While the disparity of incomes is becoming a true problem. This kind of expirience has always been provided. For example club level at hotels, first class in flights, different hotel categories within a company, etc. I don't think this is something new. While maybe they didn't separate it before ships have always offer suites. Disney has been providing up charge experiences for a long long time aka dessert parties, bbb, firework cruises, private tours. The problem that I have with the MKAD has nothing to do with being an upcharge. By the looks of how things have been going for the event things don't look good.

I think they're trying to highlight leisure companies kicking it up a notch even beyond those traditional levels. Not just cruise suites, but even larger, more secluded and luxurious with common areas and services not available to other passengers. Club level at hotels is pretty comparable and I think the Disney After Hours event is the smallest example - really it's not quite as immersive an experience as the others, except that the number of tickets is limited. . . Of course, what else could you really DO to make it more upscale in a hot outdoor venue? No one's riding Solash Mountain in black tie
Maybe there just aren't enough people already at a noisy amusement park looking for that type of extravagance - perhaps those travelers are already in the cruise suite getting a seaweed wrap!

 

[ellie05]

I think they're trying to highlight leisure companies kicking it up a notch even beyond those traditional levels. Not just cruise suites, but even larger, more secluded and luxurious with common areas and services not available to other passengers. Club level at hotels is pretty comparable and I think the Disney After Hours event is the smallest example - really it's not quite as immersive an experience as the others, except that the number of tickets is limited. . . Of course, what else could you really DO to make it more upscale in a hot outdoor venue? No one's riding Solash Mountain in black tie
Maybe there just aren't enough people already at a noisy amusement park looking for that type of extravagance - perhaps those travelers are already in the cruise suite getting a seaweed wrap!

I would not want to wear black tie on splash unless they guarantee I won't get wet . Now trying to get in the log with a formal dress might be another problem. Have you seen those private events that they put for conferences in the MK? Now sign me up for those! To be honest to me it seem the article was an advertisement piece for Norwegian cruises. They keep talking that it had to be secluded enough, but enough to give people "envy" and then they added all this experiences that aren't exactly new like discovery cove.

 

[Kimberly9701]

I just don't understand how this is something new. There has always been up charge options- in most industries.

A few previous posters have given some examples.. I pretty much spent my 20s in SoBe and let's use night clubs as an example- you can pay $20 to get in. Or you can pay $400+ for a bottle of grey goose per 4 people to be able to sit down and not wait in line- labeled- "vip". You can buy a base model car, or you can buy an upgraded version. You can go to a concert, or you can again- get a "vip package" with separate restrooms and entry line. And so on and so on..

Disclaimer- I don't know how accurate those above price points are now, I'm talking 10-15 years ago.lol.

 

[MakiraMarlena]

You should see southwest passengers in the airport get upset once they realized they should have paid $15 for the early bird if they don't want to board after those in "business class" (yes they have a business class, although all it gets them is the ability to board at the head of the line) elite flyers (yes they have elite flyers), those who paid for early bird, and anybody traveling with a child age 6 or under. Plus, they allow saving seats. Don't pay, you are in a middle seat OR you are in the back of the plane. Front of the plane appears to be preferred by many passengers, with Southwest now unless you are a party of one and will accept a middle seat, it's the back of the plane for you if you didn't pay for EBCI.

According to a British article, the very act of having to walk past the first class passengers while boarding a plane usually triggers resentment that results in FOUR TIMES more instances of "air rage" on planes with first class sections, the same rate of "air rage" caused by flight delays of five hours or more. (It's just one study but they suggest getting rid of first class and treating all passengers exactly the same way.) And that is just first class on an airplane. Not luxury accommodations. It's being set forth here that many Disney visitors harbor resentment for those who choose to pay for the upcharges or book higher-priced accommodations (or against WDW for offering such things in the first place) and allow it to influence how much they enjoy their vacation.

The point of the After Hours is not that it's more posh than any other Disney experience. It's that there aren't many other people in the park. Photos from that event look like it's after the zombie apocalypse. Attendees have reported being allowed to stay on attractions for repeated rides. How many folks have thought "I'd pay to be able to go to MK when there was hardly anybody else there?" That might be what Disney was banking on. Doesn't sound like it worked out very well for them, maybe they got the price point too high, maybe they're selling too few tickets. I don't think they yet know at what point they can balance the price paid against the number of people in the park to deliver the desired experience.

 

[serenitynow]

I would not want to wear black tie on splash unless they guarantee I won't get wet . Now trying to get in the log with a formal dress might be another problem. Have you seen those private events that they put for conferences in the MK? Now sign me up for those! To be honest to me it seem the article was an advertisement piece for Norwegian cruises. They keep talking that it had to be secluded enough, but enough to give people "envy" and then they added all this experiences that aren't exactly new like discovery cove.

That might make for some fun pictures. A wedding party all dressed up in tuxedos and formal dresses getting into the logs and riding Splash Mountain! I bet those shots would go viral!

 

[ellie05]

That might make for some fun pictures. A wedding party all dressed up in tuxedos and formal dresses getting into the logs and riding Splash Mountain! I bet those shots would go viral!

Now that you can get married at the MK we might see that soon!

 

[Skywise]

According to a British article, the very act of having to walk past the first class passengers while boarding a plane usually triggers resentment that results in FOUR TIMES more instances of "air rage" on planes with first class sections, the same rate of "air rage" caused by flight delays of five hours or more. (It's just one study but they suggest getting rid of first class and treating all passengers exactly the same way.) And that is just first class on an airplane. Not luxury accommodations.

There was no "science" in that study and the students should be flunked out. It's purely correlation and correlation is not causality. They basically took ALL the flight manifests of air-rage incidents (not the ones without... just the ones with) and then added up all the data points and "discovered" that economic class = discontent.

Which is complete and utter BS because the air-rage incidents THEMSELVES aren't caused by or in response to this supposed classicist "divisiveness"

When you realize that almost ALL planes WITHOUT first class sections are short haul flights and the great majority of flights are WITH first class sections it's no wonder that most air-rage occurs on flights with first class sections.

Might as well follow the same "logic" as "What do we do with witches? Burn 'em! What else burns? Wood? Right. What else does wood do? Floats? Right. What else floats? A duck? Right.... So if the woman floats like a duck... She's a witch!!!"

 

[BusyP76]

I just don't understand how this is something new. There has always been up charge options- in most industries.

A few previous posters have given some examples.. I pretty much spent my 20s in SoBe and let's use night clubs as an example- you can pay $20 to get in. Or you can pay $400+ for a bottle of grey goose per 4 people to be able to sit down and not wait in line- labeled- "vip". You can buy a base model car, or you can buy an upgraded version. You can go to a concert, or you can again- get a "vip package" with separate restrooms and entry line. And so on and so on..

Disclaimer- I don't know how accurate those above price points are now, I'm talking 10-15 years ago.lol.

I don't think it's new at all. I think maybe it's just becoming a more prevalent trend in the travel and leisure industries as a whole. If I can afford it, I'm all about the VIP...anything that means I can get to the bar and not use a port-a-potty is worth it!!!

 

[Kimberly9701]

I don't think it's new at all. I think maybe it's just becoming a more prevalent trend in the travel and leisure industries as a whole. If I can afford it, I'm all about the VIP...anything that means I can get to the bar and not use a port-a-potty is worth it!!!

I don't even think it's more prevalent now. These things have existed for my entire life at least. I think you just have groups of people who are "anti 'anyone who has something that I don't have is obviously bad/wasteful/etc'" And they take this out on the people who see value in these things, as well as the companies who offer them.

 

[MakiraMarlena]

yeah on the plane it probably doesn't have anything to do with the six mini bottles of vodka, and if it did, it's because the passenger drank the vodka out of frustration that first class is so much nicer.

 

[jade1]

I like choices.

So I see what is available, then decide if I want to pay for what is offered. Its not hard really.

 

[Hikergirl]

I don't even think it's more prevalent now. These things have existed for my entire life at least. I think you just have groups of people who are "anti 'anyone who has something that I don't have is obviously bad/wasteful/etc'" And they take this out on the people who see value in these things, as well as the companies who offer them.

I think its a sign of how society has changed. There was a time when people understood that having more money meant having more luxuries, and that was acceptable. The 1% was something to strive for. Now people feel entitled to having the same things because "its not fair" if they don't, and the 1% are practically evil for being able to have what they don't.

 

[Kimberly9701]

I like choices.

So I see what is available, then decide if I want to pay for what is offered. Its not hard really.

Cheers!

I think its a sign of how society has changed. There was a time when people understood that having more money meant having more luxuries, and that was acceptable. The 1% was something to strive for. Now people feel entitled to having the same things because "its not fair" if they don't, and the 1% are practically evil for being able to have what they don't.

Unfortunately, you are correct. It's sad but true.

Someone above mentioned that they can't see people with "money having empathy" or something like that..can't remember the exact quote.

That's so offensive and generally untrue. Has anyone looked around and seen the philanthropy that typically results in having "excess money". There's no reason to demonize it.
Live your life according to your means.
If you want more, strive for more. If you are happy with what you have, then just be happy. Who cares what someone else does with their money.

Every single person alive will always have "more" than someone else, and every single person alive will always have "less" than someone else. It's just a fact.