Not educating child

Thats a leap, she isn't working at McD, she is helping out at home.

I was basing this on the mother's plan to have her take over the nanny position that the mother was hired for.

FTR, when I was in HS the kids at the public school could leave early to go to work

When they were 13?

and they actually recieved credit towards it. I didn't go to public school, my school did not allow that.

I'd be surprised if many schools allow this today. Graduation requirements are getting heavier and heavier.

I believe they do that here in the HS my kids will go to. So, even working at McD's would count towards education.

ETA I didn't mean that since she is taking care of her sibling she is being completely educated, however it is "education" and could be used as credit towards fulfilling requirements for being homeschooled if you compare it to some of the Life classes that public schools offer.

It sounds like babysitting would be this girl's ONLY education. Are your kids able to leave school at age 13, work at McD's, and call that "school?"
 
I was basing this on the mother's plan to have her take over the nanny position that the mother was hired for.



When they were 13?



I'd be surprised if many schools allow this today. Graduation requirements are getting heavier and heavier.





It sounds like babysitting would be this girl's ONLY education. Are your kids able to leave school at age 13, work at McD's, and call that "school?"

Not the person you quoted but no not at 13..as Seniors though yes. I did such a program (business/office related, they also had medical and I think one other program). You received credit for your job and the job I had then lead to my 12 year, very nice career (obviously I advanced many times but it gave me a foot in the door). My niece graduated last year and did the medical version of it and worked as a hospice aide during her time and continues to pursue her education in nursing.
 
Not the person you quoted but no not at 13..as Seniors though yes. I did such a program (business/office related, they also had medical and I think one other program). You received credit for your job and the job I had then lead to my 12 year, very nice career (obviously I advanced many times but it gave me a foot in the door). My niece graduated last year and did the medical version of it and worked as a hospice aide during her time and continues to pursue her education in nursing.

Our highschool had the same type of program. NOT the same thing. Not even close.
 
Was your child doing anything else while she did these things for this class? Was she still going to a math class, science class, etc. or was her entire school day taken up with doing laundry and fixing meals? If not, then that is not a reasonable comparison.

There is nothing wrong with this girl helping out at home. Taking her out of school to take care of a younger sibling is not "helping out", its doing the work the mother should be doing.

I was basing this on the mother's plan to have her take over the nanny position that the mother was hired for.



When they were 13?



I'd be surprised if many schools allow this today. Graduation requirements are getting heavier and heavier.





It sounds like babysitting would be this girl's ONLY education. Are your kids able to leave school at age 13, work at McD's, and call that "school?"

If the mom isn't required to follow a specific curriculum, and can educate her way, as long as certain requirements are met by the time a student is a certain age, then who is to say this is a case of educational neglect? Again, this all depends on what the State laws are and that is my point. I realize that some may have strong opinions on this subject but your opinions don't matter, the law does.

I also have no reason to suspect that this 13 year old will never ever be educated (according to your or the OPs standards). I don't recall the OP saying the mom has absolutely no plans of ever making sure her dd recieves a proper education. For all we know she'll be graduating in 2 years and going to Yale. I don't see any reason to call CPS in this situation for the reasons I've stated. You are free to disagree.
 

If the mom isn't required to follow a specific curriculum, and can educate her way, as long as certain requirements are met by the time a student is a certain age, then who is to say this is a case of educational neglect? Again, this all depends on what the State laws are and that is my point. I realize that some may have strong opinions on this subject but your opinions don't matter, the law does.

I also have no reason to suspect that this 13 year old will never ever be educated (according to your or the OPs standards). I don't recall the OP saying the mom has absolutely no plans of ever making sure her dd recieves a proper education. For all we know she'll be graduating in 2 years and going to Yale. I don't see any reason to call CPS in this situation for the reasons I've stated. You are free to disagree.

YOU have no reason to suspect this, but obviously the OP does. And its his opinion that counts in the decision whether or not to call CPS.

I highly doubt that the mom is going to not educate her child for 6 months and then suddenly get that light bulb moment and made a different decision.
 
YOU have no reason to suspect this, but obviously the OP does. And its his opinion that counts in the decision whether or not to call CPS.

I highly doubt that the mom is going to not educate her child for 6 months and then suddenly get that light bulb moment and made a different decision.

double post
 
YOU have no reason to suspect this, but obviously the OP does. And its his opinion that counts in the decision whether or not to call CPS.

I highly doubt that the mom is going to not educate her child for 6 months and then suddenly get that light bulb moment and made a different decision.

Yes, and the OP asked if he was overstepping, and IMO he is. To me, there are valid reasons to call CPS, and a 13 year old not sitting down for 6 hours a day doing math, science and social studies isn't one of them.
 
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Yes, and the OP asked if he was overstepping, and IMO he is. To me, there are valid reasons to call CPS, and a 13 year old not sitting down for 6 hours a day doing math, science and social studies isn't one of them.

I think the difference here is assuming that the OP is thinking the child should be in a structured learning enviornment (sitting down 6 hours a day) and assuming the OP is referring to an educational environment of ANY kind--besides babysitting all day. Those are two very different ends of the spectrum.
 
I think the difference here is assuming that the OP is thinking the child should be in a structured learning enviornment (sitting down 6 hours a day) and assuming the OP is referring to an educational environment of ANY kind--besides babysitting all day. Those are two very different ends of the spectrum.

Still isn't a reason to call CPS IMO.
 
Physical/sexual abuse claims are not comparable here or relevant. I don't view them on par with this situation in the slightest.

As I stated..CPS is extremely serious business IMO and you better be 1000% certain what is going on before you send them after a parent(s). A 13-14 year old's word on what goes on at home regarding schooling and watching a younger sibling is simply not enough IMO to warrant a call to CPS based on what she said. Isn't it possible she lied or exaggerated? Isn't it possible she could be pissed at Mom for watching the brother 1 day or certain afternoons and wanted to complain? Again..I view CPS to be pretty serious and if some kid said "all I do all day is take care of my little brother" you bet I would be looking into things before calling in agencies over it.



Well the OP has fired this person, the OP has stated their "suggestions" for what this parent needed to do with her child's education was met with a "butt out"..the OP obviously feels they know what this parent needs to do regardless of being told to get out of their personal

business..being rebuffed by someone could make someone angry..if she didn't comply it could easily lead to them being angry with her and going farther than they should regarding this.

I am well aware of the difference. I am referring only to the reliability of the kid's honesty. I don't think that should factor in.

As a case manager (although not for CPS) this is something I would pursue for a client. I am not sure of the legal concerns for the area, so of course that would play a role.
 
I think the difference here is assuming that the OP is thinking the child should be in a structured learning enviornment (sitting down 6 hours a day) and assuming the OP is referring to an educational environment of ANY kind--besides babysitting all day. Those are two very different ends of the spectrum.

Since it isn't the OP child it really isn't the OP business how someone else educates their child nor does it make it remotely a CPS worthy "offense" either.
 
I am well aware of the difference. I am referring only to the reliability of the kid's honesty. I don't think that should factor in.

As a case manager (although not for CPS) this is something I would pursue for a client. I am not sure of the legal concerns for the area, so of course that would play a role.

And I think it should when a non mandatory reporter hears something a kids says.

I have a friend who's DD is a very very picky eater. Mom doesn't cater to her, makes her healthy meals and leaves it at that. DD told her teacher "My Mom doesn't feed me". Thankfully the teacher didn't take her at her word and run to the phone..she asked the child some questions first and one of them was basically along the lines of "your Mom doesn't feed you or you don't like what your Mom gives you". After some back and fort the little girl admitted she got food, just that she didn't like to eat things like baked chicken and broccoli so she wanted the teacher to think she didn't get any food.

If the teacher ran off and called CPS at "My Mom doesn't feed me" it would have lead to a lot of unnecessary stress and upset for the parents and unnecessary work for CPS.

I am not saying a non mandatory reporter needs to hire an investigator or something but I think it is a bad move to take a kids complaint as utter fact and involve something as serious as CPS. A little common sense, a little investigating and question asking is in order.
 
The OP does not need to prove anything. Just as in those examples of people calling the police and letting the "law" decide, the OP is calling CPS and letting them "decide". And, what if the CPS goes to the door and finds not only is the mom not educating the child but some of the other forms of hideous abuse is happening too. Sounds like this child called out for help and the OP answered the call. Again, it's amazing to me that those that think a 6 year old can't be left in the car for 5 minutes and would call the police but this is none of the OP's business. Guess what, the police are busy with "serious" offenses just like CPS. They are the first to get called for rape, burglary, murder, robbery etc. The same argument could hold true that they shouldn't be called for a child perfectly okay in the car because they are too busy too.


The OP is making an accusation. You're right. It can be baseless and spurious and without any proof, but if you want to declare the moral high ground, it shouldn't be.

What if CPS goes to the OP's door and finds out he's an abuser? It's as likely as that this woman is. There's ZERO reason to suggest that this woman is committings "hideous forms of abuse." That's a pretty wild red herring. Certainly I don't see the "call for help" you allege.

It'a amazing to me that you equate behavior that routinely kills small children with this. Unless the OP believes a few months without schooling is likly to kill this girl? In which case 911 would be appropriate.
 
How about we take the OP at his word and assume he know a bit more about the situation than we do?

The mom SAID she wants the child to keep her younger sibling. She SAID she is not educating the child. That is neglect.

If she was stupid enough to say that and not clearly let someone understand she was being sarcastic--that would be her problem. The kid comes first.

I don't get why so many people thing not allowing your child to get an education is ok?? :confused3

Because we don't really value education in this country.

I don't think it is so much that anybody thinks it is okay, it is just that CPS - at least here and from what I can tell about Nebraska there too - has no authority to do anything about it.

So, a call to CPS isn't going to do a thing. If anybody was interested in solving this they'd have to start by lobbying their State legislature to monitor and regulate home school curriculum. That is a whole new can of worms and I don't know that it would solve much. I mean, we have some Chicago Public Schools (which our Secretary of Education used to run) that only have about 10 to 20% of their students meeting minimum education standards. Is this 13 year old any worse off than those students? If educational neglect is a crime, maybe we should start calling CPS on some of our schools too.

Educational neglect is absolutely a ground for finding neglect in Illinois, just not in Cook County. And the neglect is not about the child not succeeding, it's about giving the child the opportunity to succeed. If she isn't being given any education, she is being neglected.

I think many of you have a very skewed view of CPS and the investigation process. Are there over-zealous workers who want to pull kids from any home? Yes, but they're also probably working in a low-traffic office with milder forms of abuse and neglect. A high-volume worker wouldn't immediately pull the kid from the home. Reports are prioritized. And even if a worker finds credible evidence of neglect, it doesn't mean that the child will be pulled, and it doesn't mean that the case will go to court. States have heavy financial incentives to keep kids at home when they can. If a visit from a social worker might scare the stupid out of someone, great!
 
Well, this is bigred's wife. I actually made the call to CPS. Honestly, I had no idea he was going to post on here and I am not upset he did, but I am a little surprised. I didn't call CPS lightly. I was, and am, deeply concerned about this child. To give a little more information, I am an attorney. Prior to law school, I got a bachelor's degree in Social Work (and Poli Sci). I did my first social work internship with CPS. I know how the system works, both from a legal and an intervention perspective. I also realize very little may be done. But I could not, in good conscience, sit back and do nothing.

I have great friends who homeschool. I have a cousin that homeschooled her 5 kids. Frankly, if my husband would agree, I would probably homeschool my little ones if my little girls wanted to someday AND if I thought it was what was best for them. I am not against homeschooling. I am against NOT schooling at all. Education is the path to choices. If you are not educated, you have very few choices.

As I said, I did not call CPS lightly. I spent a lot of time with this woman (let's call her Janelle) and her child all summer. We did a lot of things together -- went to the pool, went bowling, went hiking, took trips, ect. In the beginning of May, she told me she took her daughter out of school in December 2010. She said it was because her daughter was getting into trouble. I respected that and even told her that my oldest daughter had been told that if she didn't start making better choices, we were going to pull HER out of school and enroll her in a university online schooling course. Thankfully, my daughter decided to straighten up and we did not have to follow through on our threat.

As time went by, the "real" reasons started coming out. She said she had carpel tunnel surgery in December and that she had to take her daughter out of school because she physically couldn't even pick up her 6 month old son after the surgery. Then, she said, she started working with her mother, who owned a fitness business. She said she couldn't have worked at the store every other day (from 7 am until 4 pm) if she didn't have her daughter to watch the baby. She continued working at this store every other day (on the opposite days she cared for our children) until September, when she quit. I asked her how she could possibly homeschool her daughter if she had her babysitting her brother all that time. She replied, "7th grade is really just a repeat of sixth grade -- she'll be fine." When I said, "Uh, no, 7th grade really is its own grade and is teaching building blocks for 8th grade" and that her daughter was going to be way behind, she got quiet and said that they were thinking of holding their daughter back a year to "catch up" on what she missed. She admitted that discipline wasn't her strong suit and she was going to look into some programs that would offer some structure for her and her daughter. I told her I would give her $300 extra a month to pay for these classes (which is what the classes cost approx).

A few days later she told me she was going to register her daughter for online university homeschooling classes and that her daughter had to test for placement. She asked for an advance on her salary for this testing. We gave it to her. I do not know what the testing revealed, only that she decided NOT to homeschool through the university and that she was going to hold her back a year and teach her at home again. She said this was because she had to catch up on the schooling she had missed the last 9 months. She also proposed at that time to have her daughter babysit the kids in the afternoon while she went home to clean. She stated that taking care of my two little girls and her son really wore her out so she was unable to take care of her own home in the evenings after work. She thought if her daughter took care of my kids and her little brother in the afternoon, she might be able to stay on top of her house. Janelle later informed me that she wanted to buy another fitness center (like curves) with her mother and she would work the afternoons at the gym and hire someone to do the mornings until the gym was profitable enough to pay her full time. She said she could not open another gym with her mom without her daughter being home schooled because she needed a sitter for her son while she was at the gym.

I asked her if she thought she'd be able to do actually homeschool her daughter, in that she hadn't homeschool AT ALL in the previous 9 months. I also wanted to know how she would do it if her daughter was babysitting her little brother at the fitness center AND babysitting my kids all afternoon while she (Janelle) either cleaned her own home or worked in the gym. She said that she would find a way -- maybe sign up for a program here where you paid a small amount of money and the child used their facilities to study.

At that point, I informed her that my husband and I could not be party to her not educating her child. I told her that while it was her choice how to educate her child (or not), that I could not in good conscience be a silent partner in her using her daughter as a babysitter for her and ME instead of schooling. I told her it was very hard for me to say this, as I cared for her as a friend, but that I felt what she was doing was wrong. I said her daughter was a bright child with a wonderful future ahead of her, but without some education, she was limiting her choices. I told her that I thought she (Janelle) was putting her own interests ahead of her child's best interests.

I told her that I was saying this because I cared about her and her child and that someone needed to stand up for her daughter. Janelle stated that she had stood up for her daughter by taking her out of school because her daughter was "cutting classes." Her daughter, who had been listening, came around the cornering yelling, "Stop lying. You keep saying I skipped classes and got into trouble but that is just lies. I NEVER cut one class. I had straight A's. I was NOT a trouble maker. Just stop LYING!" And she was crying and upset.

Janelle told her to butt out and that it wasn't a discussion for her. But she never denied what her daughter said, and in fact, got all flustered and embarrassed.

Someone asked what Janelle's husband thinks. He is adamantly against homeschooling but since he is "just the stepdad" he doesn't get a say. Janelle's ex husband, and father to her child, does not want his child homeschooled either but lives across the country and has little involvement other than holidays and long weekends (and he does pay child support).

I didn't call CPS at that time. We actually "made up" and both agreed not to discuss certain topics. She asked me to be on the board of directrors for a nonprofit she was starting and I had to decline because of my employment contract and the fact that she was not going to carry liability insurance for the BoD. However, we were part of the same playgroups and I kept running into her at those different playgroups around town. I asked her (Janelle) how homeschooling was going and she said, "We've been so busy getting my nonprofit up and running, that I haven't had any time to do it." I was shocked. I said, "Janelle, you held her back a year. If you don't do it, she'll be two years behind her peers." She said she felt really bad and was going to focus on that "soon."

I ran into her and her daughter last week and her daughter was crying. I asked what is wrong and she said her mom is pregnant and has bad morning sickness and so she has been taking care of her brother full time. Janelle said, "(Daughter's name) is just upset that I am having another baby." Daughter said, "That "I" am going to have to take care of!" And she walked away.

Janelle said that her daughter just doesn't want another sibling. I asked, "How's the schooling going?" She said, "I am too sick to do any right now. But we'll get to it." In two weeks, her daughter will have been out of school for 1 year with NO schooling.

I talked to her daughter a few minutes later and her daughter said, "You know, you called it. You told my mom I would never get any schooling and you were right. I haven't had ANY lessons in almost a year." She told me how lonely she was hanging out at the playlands around town and having nothing to do and how she wished she was in school or doing SOMETHING.

I decided then and there to call CPS. Even if they can't do anything to help, I want this child to know someone gives a rat's *** about her and her needs. I know some of you think I am a busy body and I am ok with that. But, while I have felt sadness over calling CPS, I have never felt a moment of guilt. I don't want my friend to lose her child, and having worked with CPS, she is NOT going to lose her child. I want her to do right by her child.

And, if it comes down to it, and Janelle calls CPS on me and my family out of retaliation, I will welcome them into my home. I have nothing to hide. My children have a nanny becauseI went to law school and incurred $150,000 of debt. I hadn't found "mr. right" and I did not have children. I needed to suppport myself and I wanted a job that I would like. i met my husband shortly before finishing and, while I could quit working and go delinquent on my school debts like a good portion of america (more than 60%!), I chose to honor my commitments. That requires me to work. Because I want to be near them and visit them and eat lunch with them on days I work, I employ a nanny. I do not think CPS while find that so objectionable.

Anyways, that is the full story. It was not retaliation. It was not mean spirited. It was out of concern for a child who deserves someone to stand up for her. Whether anything comes of it, well, I'll let the authorities figure that out. Also, CPS handles all education concerns. They refer to the county prosecutor, but the county prosecutor requires you file a complaint through CPS -- see, I did do my homework.
 
Understand your comment. We employ two PT nannies -- one works three days a week and the other two. They both brought their children into our home. At the beginning of summer, one of the individuals moved with her family out of state. We started to look for a replacement.

The mother of the daughter in question goes to our church and asked if she could take the two days. We knew her family was struggling financially and agreed. She brought her older daughter and young son into our home for a couple of months. She was very open about pulling her daughter out of school the previous year and why she did it. She had carpal tunnel (sp?) surgery that spring and stated she could not have taken care of her young son without the assistance of her older daughter.

We were under the impression that she would be sending her back to school in the fall. She wasn't sure if she was going to send her back to school this year or homeschool her. My wife assisted her in finding curriculum and on-line courses through some of the universities.

Around late July, she informed us that she wouldn't be sending her daughter to school, nor would she be using any sort of curriculum for home schooling. She also asked at that time that her daughter take over her duties in the afternoon so she could go home and clean / rest. She would also leave her young son at our home during the afternoons for her daughter to also watch. At that point my wife told her this was unacceptable and that we couldn't move forward with her as our nanny.

So, long story short, we knew her before. We both work out of the home so we can keep a close eye on things. Didn't realize what she had planned. Were uncomfortable supporting it through employment, and made a change.
In late July, she info


So the nanny wants to go home in the afternoon to clean and rest. Have her daughter look after the op's ofspring and leave her other child in the ops house and get paid for it. And your having a go at op?????????????????????????

:scared1:
 
I'm very familiar with the CPS system in NY.. Between DD & I we have 4 close friends who work for CPS.. A 13 yr. old not attending school would be considered a ridiculous reason for calling - and when they made a home visit (as mandated once a "neglect" call comes in) should the nanny whip out something, anything - that indicated the child was receiving even a minimal education at home - the OP (if they identified themselves when the report was made) could be charged with filing a false report..

They just don't have the time or the resources - when they are dealing with serious life and death situations - to handle educational issues - for which there are other avenues that can be approached to monitor the situation..

I'm really surprised that people don't understand that.. Are you from states where the number of serious child abuse cases are so low your CPS workers have the time and resources to run around checking up on whether or not a 13 year old is being home schooled?

Do you realize how many cases of serious - life or death - child abuse allegations need to be investigated just in New York City alone?? That's not even counting the rest of the state! :confused3

Maybe you don't agree, but they just don't have the time or the manpower to spend on calls such as this..
:sad2:

I find it hard to believe that NY goes to someone's home on every call that comes into CPS. If that is the case NY needs to rethink how they handle things. In my state all calls to the child abuse hotline are carefully screened at that level to see if they warrant a visit from CPS. There are some crazy calls that come to the hotline.
 
BigRedBill's Wife, you are 100% in the right and I applaud you for sticking up for this poor girl! She sounds miserable and she has the right to an education. It is unfortunate that her mother is using her as a free babysitter.
 













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