NOT a Solution for Bullying.

[amid chaos]

Here is an interview with the mother and child who were at the top of the list. Sounds like he learned something.

http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/BO139980/

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

But if you are the only one that puts her name on there, she won't be at the top of the list.



How is this any different than doing a survey?? You can still stick any kids name in there without backing it up.

Honestly, I think this is a GREAT idea. I think it gives a LOT better feedback to the school and you don't end up in situations where it is one child's word against the other. If 20 kids out of 22 say that Johnny Smith is the biggest bully in class, he probably is. Kids will be pretty honest about stuff like this. Yes, you are going to get one kid here and there that will try to get someone in trouble but it won't pan out because the rest of the class isn't doing that.

But a child getting in trouble based off of a list withtout investigation is not a good idea and goes against due process. Didn't hte OP say that is what happened.

A student was singled out via this list and then punished b/c kids wrote his name down. Nothing else.

 

[DVC~OKW~96]

Due process is a legal construct and does not apply to schools. Schools have their own set of rules and regulations, much of which have nothing to do with "laws."

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Due process is a legal construct and does not apply to schools. Schools have their own set of rules and regulations, much of which have nothing to do with "laws."

They failed to investigate though.

They didn't even asked what he bullied about.

That's like taking superlatives and then saying--you were voted smartest, so you get to skip school for the rest of the year. Your peers said so.

He got suspended for being called a bully (ETAL He was not suspended, he was forced to stay in at recess and admit the kids he bullied while punishment was already in progress)--but nowhere did they compare his actions against the code of conduct. Nope--they called you a bully, it must be so. Poof--punished.

That is wrong and while I do not condone bullying--that action was inappropriate and I side with the bully's mom on that one.

 

[Northstar]

But if you are the only one that puts her name on there, she won't be at the top of the list.



How is this any different than doing a survey?? You can still stick any kids name in there without backing it up.

Honestly, I think this is a GREAT idea. I think it gives a LOT better feedback to the school and you don't end up in situations where it is one child's word against the other. If 20 kids out of 22 say that Johnny Smith is the biggest bully in class, he probably is. Kids will be pretty honest about stuff like this. Yes, you are going to get one kid here and there that will try to get someone in trouble but it won't pan out because the rest of the class isn't doing that.

The trouble with this "majority rule" thing is that the most damaging form of bullying is where the bullies organize and all target one kid... it's a kind of power play. Well, it will take the kids about one nanosecond to figure that this is one more way to convey to the victim that he/she is completely worthless, hated and powerless. Believe me, they will relish the irony of manipulating the list to make the bullied look like a bully.

You say kids will be honest about stuff like this. Nope, some kids will be honest and some will figure out how to work the system to their advantage. Some kids will be immature enough to just put whoever has annoyed them today at the top of the list.

Also, what if there is NOT a bullying problem in the class? Asking people to put someone at the top of a bully list is like a witch hunt. Peoples think, "Hmm, if they're asking me who might be a witch, that must mean there are witches! I've been missing something"

 

[Tiger926]

The trouble with this "majority rule" thing is that the most damaging form of bullying is where the bullies organize and all target one kid... it's a kind of power play. Well, it will take the kids about one nanosecond to figure that this is one more way to convey to the victim that he/she is completely worthless, hated and powerless. Believe me, they will relish the irony of manipulating the list to make the bullied look like a bully.

You say kids will be honest about stuff like this. Nope, some kids will be honest and some will figure out how to work the system to their advantage. Some kids will be immature enough to just put whoever has annoyed them today at the top of the list.

Also, what if there is NOT a bullying problem in the class? Asking people to put someone at the top of a bully list is like a witch hunt. Peoples think, "Hmm, if they're asking me who might be a witch, that must mean there are witches! I've been missing something"

I will disagree - it depends upon the culture of the school and how the survery is set-up. If there is a positive culture (like at my school), then kids are very honest. Once in awhile there is a lie, but if you are good at your job, then you can see through that lie. Our staff is very close to the student body, and we know exactly what is going on, so if a student were to apppear on a list all of a sudden, with no other warning signs, then we investigate. We don't need to investigate that much though, as we are a small school with only 250 students - we cap it at this amount in order to be able to properly deal with all situations.

I realize that not all schools can do this, and certainly not the super schools that the US loves to build. Despite this, as I said, if you have a good understanding of the nature of your kids, even in a big school, you can tell, for the most part, who the bullies are, as they are bullies in school, out of school, etc. It is rare to have a school-only bully - in our vast experience as a behaviour specialist school, we find that bullies are bullies in all aspects of their lives.

That's not to say that what you are suggesting can't happen, but it's no big deal if it does, if the school is properly organized to handle it. If a name appears that's bogus, no one knows but the staff who is in charge of dealing with that, so it should't be a huge problem. It was for this school in question, as they have no idea how to handle this type of problem. They never should have taken the kids' info at face value and acted on it without proper investigation and observation. I can't even believe a school would act like that...

Tiger

 

[Northstar]

I will disagree - it depends upon the culture of the school and how the survery is set-up. If there is a positive culture (like at my school), then kids are very honest. Once in awhile there is a lie, but if you are good at your job, then you can see through that lie. Our staff is very close to the student body, and we know exactly what is going on, so if a student were to apppear on a list all of a sudden, with no other warning signs, then we investigate. We don't need to investigate that much though, as we are a small school with only 250 students - we cap it at this amount in order to be able to properly deal with all situations.

I realize that not all schools can do this, and certainly not the super schools that the US loves to build. Despite this, as I said, if you have a good understanding of the nature of your kids, even in a big school, you can tell, for the most part, who the bullies are, as they are bullies in school, out of school, etc. It is rare to have a school-only bully - in our vast experience as a behaviour specialist school, we find that bullies are bullies in all aspects of their lives.

That's not to say that what you are suggesting can't happen, but it's no big deal if it does, if the school is properly organized to handle it. If a name appears that's bogus, no one knows but the staff who is in charge of dealing with that, so it should't be a huge problem. It was for this school in question, as they have no idea how to handle this type of problem. They never should have taken the kids' info at face value and acted on it without proper investigation and observation. I can't even believe a school would act like that...

Tiger

Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with this reason for supporting "the bully list."
If your school has a positive culture, is small, and "has a good understanding of the nature of your kids," then you don't need the kids to fill out this list to become aware of bullying problems.
Having the list and making a big deal of filling it out regularly encourages kids to become cynical about the whole thing, and encourages the view that you are always either a victim or an oppressor in life.

It reminds me of the confession-and-rat-out-your-comrades meetings Chinese work units used to hold in the days of the Cultural Revolution. I cannot believe that this practice of asking kids to point fingers at bullies contributes to the trust and positive culture your school has.

 

[minniebeth]

So other kids can see who “voted” for whom? That is just asking for trouble! If a bully sees that a certain child listed him/her as a bully, (s)he is even more likely to go after that kid!

I agree with other posters, a student made list is not going to be the most accurate.

No, just the teachers, administration/guidance sees who writes their names at the top of the survey~

 

[minniebeth]

That is unbelievable! The school becomes the bully. What would happen if you told the principal that you will no longer permit your child to take part in organized 'tattle taling' but that she will report incidences of bullying, privately and confidentially as she sees them happen? I know singling your child out to stand up to this kind of thing is difficult and I can understand why you may not want to, but if more kids did, they might solve bullying by everyone.

I agree that the school becomes the bully, and the school my kids attend is a private school, they can make and enforce the rules. Their attuitude is: if you don't like it, there's 100 kids on the waiting list wanting your child's spot.

Some posters are saying that this type of survey can be effective if the culture of the school is a positive one. I would say that if a school had a postive program/way of dealing with serious issues of bullying, and the culture of the school was a postive one, and teachers were trained and handled social situations well, they probably wouldn't need to use such a survey.

On a personal note, before anyone asks or comments why I would choose to have my kids in a private school such as this, because this really is a hot button issue for me, there are 1,000 postive other things to balance this issue out. I just really disagree with the way this issue is handled.

Others may say that the survey will have some accuracy and truth to it, that kids are still honest and decent to each other...well you must live in an area where people are still wholesome and kids are growing up with core values. I'm sad to say I personally see these qualities dwindling away in the kids' culture I come across and kids who are intelligent find a tool like this as a way to be destructive to each other.

This is just my opinion on it all...

 

[taximomfor4]

hmm. Interesting idea. I have to think about it a little more, but have to say, my first thought was "At least that school is TRYING TO DO SOMETHING." (Just pulled dd11 out of school in March, due to bullying. Apparently, a whole-school problem at her former school. Wasn't till at least 3 6th graders were pulled from the school that the principal cracked down.

I know they went to "mandatory reporting", meaning any kid who witnesses bullying of any kind is to report it directly to the office, NOT to a teacher or anyone else (the teachers who did witness bullying of my dd hadn't reported any of it to the office...breaking protocol).

ETA: I guess after thinking for about 3 minutes so far, I can see where this "survey", if done ANONYMOUSLY, can be a TOOL. But it can't be "the" judge and jury. In dd's school (about 900 kids, I think), it was packs of kids she didn't even know in the hallways between classes. Some kids surrounded her one day, others nearby laughed. She heard ONE say "Don't, you're going to scare her." The next day, some that had laughed the day before became the surrounders, while others became the laughing audience. Till it escalated to several times per day, EVERY day, different groups of kids (or rotating groups, or different pieces of the same larger group, we don't know for sure). Teachers who witnessed were able to name several kids from different days, but those kids didn't name their co-bullies. Perhaps those kids' names would have gotten written on an anonymous list? Perhaps the girl from the very first day, who had said "Don't. You'll scare her." would have written her friends' names down. RIght now, the school has a rule that you have to report to the office, to report bullying you witnessed.

Although a bully box COULD be a better option, how many kids won't do the "extra" step, writing someone down and walking to the bully box? Having the list makes every kid take 3 minutes out of their day, all at once, and think and write...with nothing better to do at that moment instead. After all, bullying is ONLY a big deal to the one being bullied. To witnesses and the bullies themselves, it's hardly a blip on the radar.

 

[Tiger926]

Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with this reason for supporting "the bully list."
If your school has a positive culture, is small, and "has a good understanding of the nature of your kids," then you don't need the kids to fill out this list to become aware of bullying problems.
Having the list and making a big deal of filling it out regularly encourages kids to become cynical about the whole thing, and encourages the view that you are always either a victim or an oppressor in life.

It reminds me of the confession-and-rat-out-your-comrades meetings Chinese work units used to hold in the days of the Cultural Revolution. I cannot believe that this practice of asking kids to point fingers at bullies contributes to the trust and positive culture your school has.

We don't have such lists or surveys at my school. We've never used them at all, but I have a small, specialized school, so I discussed it as an option for large super schools in which this is the only way to get such information. We don't even have an anonymous box as we find our kids talk to us, most of the time. We can do what we do at my school, because we are small, and that goes a long way in dealing with bullies and pretty much all other problems we are faced with.

We don't work this way at my school at all, but, we have had a note or such slipped to us with this info on it, and we have investigated and observed in order to discover if it were true or not.

We don't use this type of thing at my school at all, but for many schools, they may have no other choice due to sheer size of their school.

I already said that I think this school was ridiculous in the whole set-up of the program, but I do believe that at larger schools, if done properly, this could be used a tool for dealing with bullying. Schools with 3,000 students, in which people don't know your name, or you have classes of 35 students, this type of survey thing might be the only way of getting such info out there.

For the most part, we do health surveys, smoking, drug, etc. once in awhile for the health unit or university/collge, and our kids are very honest with us on paper, but they are also pretty honest with us verbally as well, as we have a great mutual trust and respect in our program. So, we don't have many bullying issues at our school at all, as we eat with our kids, hang with them at break, open door policy, school BBQs, etc.

HTH, Tiger

 

[RitaZ.]

Here is an interview with the mother and child who were at the top of the list. Sounds like he learned something.

http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/BO139980/

When I first read the story, I didn't think the school's approach was a good idea. After watching the video, I'm not so sure. The boy admits to having bullied classmates. The mother is totally focused on the principal and teachers. She wants the teachers reprimanded and the principal fired. She didn't say a word about her son's bullying behavior. She is shifting the focus off her son and onto the school's staff.

 

[Tiger926]

When I first read the story, I didn't think the school's approach was a good idea. After watching the video, I'm not so sure. The boy admits to having bullied classmates. The mother is totally focused on the principal and teachers. She wants the teachers reprimanded and the principal fired. She didn't say a word about her son's bullying behavior. She is shifting the focus off her son and onto the school's staff.

This is one of the main reasons why bullies stay bullies. If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard a parent say not my kid, and yet, I know that it was in fact their kid, as either I saw the kid, or, the kid confessed to us it was.

In this case, nothing anyone says will make the parent change her mind - she believes she was wronged, and wants retribution for it. How about all of the kids whom her son has bullied? She probably hasn't even thought of them...

Tiger

 

[RitaZ.]

This is one of the main reasons why bullies stay bullies. If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard a parent say not my kid, and yet, I know that it was in fact their kid, as either I saw the kid, or, the kid confessed to us it was.

In this case, nothing anyone says will make the parent change her mind - she believes she was wronged, and wants retribution for it. How about all of the kids whom her son has bullied? She probably hasn't even thought of them...

Tiger

I absolutely agree with you.