Northeast "Selective" Colleges

[sharbear]

Patsgirl, I just ran a sample NPC for Bucknell. Very simple $50,000 for you and $150,000 for your ex. What it came up with was a remaining cost of $42,310.

$5500 of that was the maximum stafford loans that she is able to take out and 36,810 which you and your ex would be your contribution.

It looks like they would give you a 17,850 grant on a yearly cost of $60.160.

I did not give you any home equity and minimal contributions to retirement.

 

[PatsGirl]

What it came up with was a remaining cost of $42,310.

QUOTE]

Not going to happen

FWIW, I'm getting increasingly anxious about our list and just emailed her Dad to get his take on things. Not expecting much but at least in the end, he won't be able to say "WTH were you thinking" LOL

 

[NotUrsula]

I think in your case there is no "separating" the issue of choice from the issue of aid. For one thing, Dad will HAVE to fill out the CSS if she wants to get into any school that requires it for scholarship decisions, and if he wants to keep his income a secret, kind of tough noogies on that. I would send DD to ask him and sit with him to fill it out. You say he is really responsive to her needs, so hopefully he won't deny her request if she's sitting there making it in person.
After all, it is her education and not yours, so maybe it's best if you let her take the lead on negotiating for the funds. If he really won't reveal his income, then your list is MUCH smaller, because you'll be restricted to places that only ask for the FAFSA, and in the northeast, there are not many of those.

I'm sure that your DD figures that she did the work in HS, so now she should get to call the shots on choice, but unfortunately, when money matters, choice largely goes out the window. Enlarging her geographical range would go a long way toward restoring her freedom of choice (and if either you or your ex travel for work and can gift her with FF miles, then her "8 hour" limit isn't an object.)

BTW, why such small schools? For her major, she's going to want a school where she can get some opportunity for undergrad research, and usually schools quite that small won't make that possible. Looking a bit larger should again widen the range of opportunity.

 

[PatsGirl]

Well, sure is alot of information to pow-pow over FWIW, her father will certainly fill out and reveal his income on the CSS, he will not reveal it to me (and I don't really care, I can guess pretty close).

Her #1 main priority is staying in a school with 2000-5000 students. If size were not an issue, UMass would be first choice, not last. I think she is fearful. We live in a small town, she has never had more than 300 kids in any school she has attended. Right now, she is in an IB school that extended their program to 400 students this year. She thrives on individual attention and the thought of a lab with 200 students and a professor who hasn't a clue who she is is extremely scary to her. It is generally her first question during the Q&A at information sessions "how big is the biggest class I might attend"?

I want to thank everyone for their insight, comments, and such. I think we are beating this to death at this point lol.

I guess now my direction should take a turn to a list of schools outside of NE that are less expensive and slightly larger? Through these posts, I've added several thanks to recommendations. Another friend of mine just got back from Bates and Colby and liked both very much. When I do the calculator for Bates the aid they give appears to be astronomical. I'll go through my list again with my 1040 in front of me and start striking schools. That, and a long talk with DD, I think is in order.

 

[NotUrsula]

Well, sure is alot of information to pow-pow over FWIW, her father will certainly fill out and reveal his income on the CSS, he will not reveal it to me (and I don't really care, I can guess pretty close).

Her #1 main priority is staying in a school with 2000-5000 students. If size were not an issue, UMass would be first choice, not last. I think she is fearful. We live in a small town, she has never had more than 300 kids in any school she has attended. Right now, she is in an IB school that extended their program to 400 students this year. She thrives on individual attention and the thought of a lab with 200 students and a professor who hasn't a clue who she is is extremely scary to her. It is generally her first question during the Q&A at information sessions "how big is the biggest class I might attend"?

I want to thank everyone for their insight, comments, and such. I think we are beating this to death at this point lol.

I guess now my direction should take a turn to a list of schools outside of NE that are less expensive and slightly larger? Through these posts, I've added several thanks to recommendations. Another friend of mine just got back from Bates and Colby and liked both very much. When I do the calculator for Bates the aid they give appears to be astronomical. I'll go through my list again with my 1040 in front of me and start striking schools. That, and a long talk with DD, I think is in order.

On that, "how big is the biggest class I might attend?" thing, she should add a question about whether classes will be taught by a faculty member or a teaching assistant, or an adjunct. (No offense to adjuncts; I've been one, but a school that uses a lot of them for teaching f/t undergrads is not a school that wants to put a lot of resources into teaching. Adjuncts may be good, but they are cheap to hire, and that signals a POSSIBLE tendency to devalue pedagogic skills.)

As a general rule, the higher the percentage of faculty-taught classes, the more teaching is valued as a skill, and the better the teaching caliber. You would be surprised at how much personal attention you can get from a faculty member, even at a large school, if you simply respectfully ask for it and make sure that your questions are intelligent ones.

Note that at VERY research-intensive schools, teaching is second-fiddle, and people tend not to be so good at it, so you should probably aim for middle-ground on that: faculty who are active enough to do real research and need students to help, but not so active or so advanced that undergraduates are worthless to them for that purpose, and teaching is a burden to be got through with as little effort as possible.

I think that looking at schools closer to the 5K mark in terms of enrollment is going to be a better bet. In research terms, that is really not large at all.

 

[MouseMomx2]

Her #1 main priority is staying in a school with 2000-5000 students. If size were not an issue, UMass would be first choice, not last. I think she is fearful. We live in a small town, she has never had more than 300 kids in any school she has attended. Right now, she is in an IB school that extended their program to 400 students this year. She thrives on individual attention and the thought of a lab with 200 students and a professor who hasn't a clue who she is is extremely scary to her. It is generally her first question during the Q&A at information sessions "how big is the biggest class I might attend"?

I think your DD is falling prey to a lot of misconceptions about larger schools. Yes, there are some classes that are huge. That is a given. That does not mean, however, that she will not get any individual attention. If she seeks out the professor or her TA (some TAs are really great) they will usually provide whatever she needs.

Another thing to keep in mind with private schools...many of the professors are there for the prestige of the name and are more interested in their own research than in teaching. At RPI the professors only had to spend 35% of their time teaching. DD said that most of them didn't seem to care about the students at all. By comparison, DS was at UMass last year, had some amazing professors (even in the huge class he had) and felt like they were there for the students. And this morning the secretary of the Humanities & Fine Arts division called DD to let her know that she was working on registering her for a class she needed, after DD mentioned it once in passing during orientation.

As far as UMass in general,yes, it is big. Once you are there, however, it doesn't feel that way. The campus is the center of the bullseye with the residential areas in a ring around it. That means that you are really only dealing with that center section and your residential area. In addition, you are in a smaller college within the university (Natural Sciences, Humanities & Fine Arts, Engineering, etc.) which shrinks your world a bit. And then you are in a major within that college. I know that it may be hard for your DD to see it at this point, but a large-school experience can end up feeling not much different than a small-school experience.

I only mention all of this because it is easy to see all the great things about a smaller school. It isn't until you go there and see that maybe it isn't as great as you had thought it would be that you get a clear picture.

 

[HeatherC]

PATSGIRL...we are also doing the college search here in MA. The reality of what college costs is truly staggering. And we have three to put through in the next few years. Even saving religiously since they were born, isn't enough to cover four or five years for all three kids.

With the talk of UMASS, have you considered UMASS Dartmouth or UMASS Lowell? We just toured Dartmouth this week and my DD really liked it. She wanted a small school, but this is considered medium size. A lot less students than Amherst. It was located in a nice area. It is only 45 min to Boston and 30 min from Providence and Newport. And it is only 12 miles from Horseneck Beach.

Some things my DD liked was they let freshman have cars with parking right outside the freshman dorms. There are a ton of clubs, sports, etc to get involved in. She also liked that it was set up like a ring layout. And laundry is free.

We are also going to look at Lowell and Salem State. ( She didn't like Westfield).

Total price for the UMASS schools is about $23,000 to live there. Salem State is about the same, but their Net Price Calculator showed it to be A LOT less based on our circumstances. They were quoting a lot of merit aid and scholarships that makes us interested enough to at least investigate it more.

I am hesitant to have here look at these private schools that $50k a year. Even with merit aid and scholarships, they are all looking to be A LOT more than the state schools.

MY DD is considering a Biology major then possibly teaching. Either way, that means a Masters which is another year or two...which means even more tuition!

Yikes! It's enough to send this mommy into panic mode.

Good luck to you guys in your search!!

I think these are all decent schools and if you have a motivated student....which sounds like we both do, they will excel wherever they are and make the most of their college experience.

I also really really don't want her graduating with a ton of debt that could take the next 15-20 years to pay off.

 

[HeatherC]

Forgot to mention another thing about UMASS Dartmouth that I liked was they made it very clear that all classes are taught by the professors themselves, not a teaching assistant which I know is pretty common a a lot of schools.

And when you're paying these prices, I certainly don't want to pay full price and then have a teaching assistant teach the class.

One other thing...average class size was 28 students but got smaller as students get deeper into their major.

 

[PatsGirl]

HeatherC ~ we had considered Dartmouth but there were two drawbacks: 1) too close to home, its less than an hour from us and while she doesn't want to be on the west coast or down south, we were aiming for at least a 2 hour barrier but more importantly my nephew went there and didn't get housing his sophmore year and had to transfer out. There is not nearly enough housing for the student body and his mother didn't want him in an apartment at just barely 19 years old. There could be more to it but that's what we were told. One of my MUST-HAVES is guaranteed housing for at least two years and preferably mandatory housing for four.

We looked at Salem and Westfield and didn't like either one. I wanted her to look at MCLA but she thought it was too secluded. ULowell is still a possibility

 

[HeatherC]

Now that's interesting about the housing at Dartmouth. The admissions person gave a little spiel before the tour and said housing was guaranteed for all four years. The tour guide then said it again when we were in the dorm rooms. She was a senior in a suite type of housing on campus.

Wonder if it depends on enrollment that needs housing per year?

Also thought of MCLA,but it does seem in the middle of no where. We may take a drive one weekend and just tour on our own. We still haven't been to UMASS Amherst. She is convinced it is too big but I think we should at least check it out.

What about Worcester State? That has a pretty good reputation and is consistenly ranked a good value for the money.

Decisions...decisions....driving us straight to the poor house.

Keep us posted as things progress. Fun talking about it with those going through it.

 

[3boymthr]

I have to second the idea of not going by average class size overall. DS is going to Framingham state (approx 6,000 students) to study an offshoot of Environmental Science. They had orientation a few weeks ago. For freshman year in his major there are only 10 kids! I was shocked. That means for the classes that really count he's going to be getting very individualized attention. I'm sure that the class size for things like English and algebra, etc. will be be MUCH larger but for the ones that count the class size should be fairly small.

 

[Christine]

My son attends a state school in Virginia. Undergrad population is about 19,000 (oh, he went to a VERY small high school). He loves the size of it.

He's never had more than about 30 people in any of his classes, with the exception of Physics for some reason.

His school also has a very small Graduate program so there are not a lot of TAs. The school's "brag" is that all classes are taught by professors and we have found that to be true.

You might want to open up some of your DD's selections on school size. Just because it's a large school doesn't mean you will be a number.

Both my kids went to small, private schools and they have LOVED the large school feel. There's actually so much more school spirit and cohesiveness in these larger schools (mainly due to football) but it's really interesting to see. Not to knock small schools, but with my kids and their friends who have done all types of colleges, I see more of sense of belonging for those who are attending the larger schools.

 

[HeatherC]

3boymthr...we also did tour Framingham. Glad to hear your son is happy there. My DD liked it a lot along with Dartmouth. I liked that they are building a new science building that will be finished before my DD would start. (Can't remember if it opens this Aug or next.) (She is thinking of Biology as a major.)

Funny for us is that my DH grew up in Framingham and we still have family there. I moved there with friends after college (couldn't afford Boston then.) My DH who went to Syracuse for undergrad wound up going to Framingham State for his Masters and it has served him well.

It will be interesting to see where DD winds up.
At this point, she isn't convinced on paying the extra money to live away. She could wind up at Worcester State and commute or get an apt. with friends in a year.

I want the decision to be hers and see the pros and cons of both. So I guess in the meantime, we will keep touring a few more schools so she has a bunch to compare from to see which is a good fit.

Trying not to stress too much over it. I figure we all turned out ok so no matter where she goes it will all work out in the end.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

Trying not to stress too much over it. I figure we all turned out ok so no matter where she goes it will all work out in the end.

At the end of the day, this is the most important thing to remember. A motivated student will do well in life because they are motivated to do as well as they can. In some cases, those students are also motivated to try to attend the the "big name" schools, but that does not in any way mean that they have to attend one to succeed in life. Ultimately the "fit," i.e. a student just feeling good at the school they choose to attend, as well as cost, location, etc. count for as much as the school's "brand."

What does matter, however, is that when looking at a college take into account the whole picture. Look at four year completion rates (if it will take a student five, six or more years to graduate, the added opportunity cost quickly wipes out any savings in tuition and delays the rest of life). It's easy to say "I/my child will be more focused, so it does not apply to me/my child" but at many schools it isn't a function of a student's focus but intrinsic issues with the school that make it nearly impossible to graduate in four years in certain majors, and that is where doing thorough due diligence is crucial.

Look at strength in your desired major and the quality of the faculty therein. Look at the number of adjunct faculty that are used in both core and "major" courses (adjuncts/instructors may not be accessible outside of class, may not be as focused on the students, etc., although many also bring real life experience which can be hugely valuable for students). In smaller majors that is frequently the financial strategy used by the college to balance course loads with student demand (they cannot keep four full professors on faculty for a major with 15 students), etc.

And ultimately, have fun with it. Because at the end of the day, nearly all of us turn out OK in the end, and those that don't, I think it's safe to say that it wasn't because of where they went to college.

 

[NewRVLady]

My son attends a state school in Virginia. Undergrad population is about 19,000 (oh, he went to a VERY small high school). He loves the size of it.

He's never had more than about 30 people in any of his classes, with the exception of Physics for some reason.

His school also has a very small Graduate program so there are not a lot of TAs. The school's "brag" is that all classes are taught by professors and we have found that to be true.

You might want to open up some of your DD's selections on school size. Just because it's a large school doesn't mean you will be a number.

.

I totally agree!

My kids went to a state school of 16,000
My son in the Arts had a very specialized degree, Industrial Design, and only 15 in his major Fresh year.
He graduated 8 years ago and one Prof still contacts him . Last contact- wanted to include his design work in the Uni Newsletter in an article about Grads in the Design world.

 

[PatsGirl]

APD: I think you nailed it on the head. There is SO MUCH MORE to the college search than I think most people realize. I have heard horror stories about students not getting the classes they need to graduate on time, not from their own doing, but because the school doesn't offer enough or at times that work in that major. I have also heard horror stories about students having to transfer out because of lack of housing.

For example, I'm taking the advice of others here on the board about enlarging the search to bigger schools and thought, wth, I'll start with the UMass system and look at ULowell. Well, wasn't I excited to find out they offer a Chemistry/Forensic Science option which is originally what DD wanted but is extremely limited (same with criminology). The more I read the more excited I became that maybe, just maybe, we had a found a school she might like within the budget. Yup, its all good until you find out that only freshman are guaranteed housing and the next three years is a gamble. And not a very good one. I'm going to call admissions to find out about the honors housing but I'm not hopeful.

Then theres the 6 year graduation rate. What's up with that. Seems to be a trend now that students take only four classes and end up doing five years. Heck, we can't afford four years, never mind extending it.

Have fun with it? LOL, I'm Type A and this started out as an adventure. Its now becoming a stressor for my family. Anytime I shell out any real $$ I want to know exactly what I'm buying and that I"m getting the best value for my dollar. College shopping is no different. And yet, we push forward

 

[shelly3girls]

I wouldn't worry so much about housing until you talk to students at the school. Many schools have apartments close to or even on campus where the students live. At many schools the students actually prefer it.

 

[PlutoPony]

Then theres the 6 year graduation rate. What's up with that. Seems to be a trend now that students take only four classes and end up doing five years. Heck, we can't afford four years, never mind extending it.

My son's major is 134 hours, not the 120 that it typically thought of as the baseline undergrad degree requirement. That averages out to 17 hours/semester which is brutal is not impossible some semesters. Going for a summer term or taking more than 4 years is fairly common in some competitive degree programs, it's very difficult to avoid that in many cases. Add in a minor or even a 2nd major and 4 years can become unrealistic I'm afraid.

Not getting the classes you need is not unheard of with about all the kids my son knows at various schools. That can be especially true freshman year, especially if you come in with credit from high school and need upper level classes that upperclassman have priority on. It generally works out but can be a real juggling act.

We looked at schools in a 3 state radius - PA to NC and I can count on one hand the number of schools that guaranteed 4 years of housing. If nothing else there's just not room on campus to put up more dorms to house that many students. A majority of schools guaranteed housing first year only, honors students had a better chance of staying on campus longer it seemed.

Bottom line is your final choice is going to be a compromise, the perfect school that meets all your criteria doesn't exist (nor does it exist for most). As you do more research and visit more schools you will be able to better decide what you are ultimately willing to compromise on.

Good luck, hopefully this turns out to be an enjoyable adventure

 

[Denise W]

My older daughter graduated from UMASS Dartmouth with a degree in Illustration. She had no problem getting housing the whole time she was there.

At the time we lived in RI (we are in MA now) and were able to take advantage of the NE regional program (I hope it is still in effect). Because the RI state schools did not offer the major she wanted, she was able to attend another state school within NE and pay slightly over the state rate. So we were not MA residents but were able to send her to a MA state school for about $2000 a year more than the MA in state tuition rate. We saved a ton over paying out of state tuition. So you can look into this as well.

Denise

 

[christineann]

Just an FYI, when my daughter was looking at colleges and told a professor at an open house she was planning on majoring in a science, he asked which one and told her he was glad it wasn't Forensic Chemistry.....the TV shows have led to a flood of students wanting to major in that field, and there are more grads than jobs. Things may have changed in the past few years though - just something to think about.