Non monetary ways the economy is affecting you?

[Quiksilvr]

No question about that -- I'm not only considering and acknowledging it, I'm placing it in perspective. Perhaps folks joining in the discussion aren't coming along all the way down the path.

And as we've been discussing in the last dozen or two messages, that may be a permanent shift.

But that's the problem IMHO... if it is, as some of us has projected, that we're seeing (very logical) shifts in the economy, then thinking about them as "continu[ing] to be felt strongly ... for the foreseeable future] is unfounded. KnowwhatImean?

I see what you mean, but I'm not convinced that the shift is permanent. Booms and busts and inflating and deflating asset bubbles have been a part of our economy for a long time. I'm not ready to say "it's all different now," because I don't believe that the changes we're seeing now are long-run changes. That may be my view on the psychology of people, corporate America, and the federal government (and how the three intersect) than any real hard data-based conclusion, but it's my instinct.

In the large law firm world, people have spent the last two years talking about how "the world has changed forever" and we all better get used to it. I'm just not seeing it yet. I've seen changes made to deal with current difficulties, but I haven't seen a sea change that is actually going to change our business model completely (which many consultants predicted we would have to do to compete). We actually made more money in 2009 than in 2008, and in 2008 than in 2007. We're still billing by the hour. Our clients are still paying the bills.

This is not all to say that I'm not open to the possibility of a permanent shift; indeed, I think there is a significant possibility that it is a long-run shift. . .it's just that my personal view is that it isn't. Perhaps it should be.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

I never saw much of the recession here. I knew one person who lost his job and he found another. I saw one home get foreclosed, but I think that would have happened regardless of the economy. Home prices have levelled off and perhaps declined a few percent. I don't see any behavioral differences around here. The airpost was still a zoo over Spring Break like it is every year. I don't go into stores much, so I haven't noticed any difference there.

While the recession is over in a technical sense (GDP growth being positive now), it's not over in the sense of people feeling that the economy is on track. Unemployment, which almost always a lagging measure during a recovery, is still far higher than anyone in the US is comfortable with.

I suspect that the recovery will be quicker and better for knowledge workers and the well educated and slower and weaker for unskilled labor. I don't think that's because of the recision. I think that is because the value of knowledge workers has increased because of technology and competition for unskilled labor has increased because globalization has increased the supply of unskilled labor faster than it has for skilled labor. I suspect that the income gap in the US will widen over time for these reasons.

 

[Colleen27]

The old normal could not be sustained because it was based on a "ghost" economic system. We see it with main street, people lived off of money that they did not have (no not all). The market rebounding does effect unemployment, companies borrow and hire based on whether their stockholders are happy (not as simple as that) but main street is called a "lagging" indicator because it's always the last to recover. Many people have dead end jobs because we have not invested in new technologies, were still on the old "manufacturing" mind set. bottom line manufacturing jobs are not coming back. Remember when we were first in every thing? First in the space race, first in research and development, first in education?
The two owners of google (I forgot the gentlemens names) were just on tv saying how they can't find "American" students with the technology background to fill positions. take a look at who is filling the classrooms at MIT grad programs. China is leading the way in alternative energies (solar, wind, etc) which will be huge while all we think about is how to fill up our huge suv's. we are too short sighted.

I agree the old normal wasn't sustainable. I don't think it was ever meant to be... It was just meant to keep people happy long enough to get past a point of no return, where the people will have no choice but to accept minimum wage without benefits as a new normal. We as a nation actively sought this, by allowing and even encouraging the consolidation of industries and the outsourcing of so much of our economic base with no care for anything but the fact that it got us a flood of cheap goods. Now all that is left are the jobs that can't be sent overseas or replaced with non-human inputs, the McJobs selling the cheap stuff made in China or grown in Chile, and we're left with the realization that there's no going back and no real path forward from here.

And I know I'm in a minority here, but I don't believe education alone is the answer. According to the latest figures I saw, about 24% of the jobs in our economy require a degree and about 27% of the working-age population has a degree. There's some mismatch in skills, of course, too many English majors and too few IT majors, but the fact remains that a college degree is only a path to prosperity for a rather small share of the workforce. The other 76% of jobs are the problem; we can't have a healthy middle class driving a consumer-oriented economy based on only 24% of the workforce.

 

[DisneyFan32WI]

Wisconsin is known for a few things: Beer, cheese, and Harley Davidson.

Just this past week it was announced that Harley needs to cut wages and possibly pick up and move to another state for its production. This will be a HUGE loss to our state since so many people work there. We have already had many other large companies leave the area. I think things are affected differently depending on where you live.

People are still getting laid off/positions eliminated etc. around here.

 

[Jynohn]

Bingo - but according to those in the home of the so-called "Kennedy seat," the economy is booming and everything is roses.

Definitely not booming in my area of MA. My BIL owns a construction company and is struggling to stay afloat, friends have been looking for work for over a year, my parents have had their house on the market for over 6 months and the only offer they've had was for almost $100K under asking price, and we have three foreclosures in my neighborhood alone. Nope...no roses over here.

 

[Disney Doll]

And given some of our previous disagreements, it is a remarkable thing that we agree, so substantially, in this matter.

Yes it is. One of us must be getting smarter.

 

[mamacatnv]

To answer the original question:

The traffic getting to work has become non-existent. What used to take me 30 minutes to go 13 or so miles, now takes 10 minutes.

Long waits at the popular restaurants are no more. We were in Sacramento, Ca. on Friday night, went to a Spaghetti Factory that always always always has a long wait - it was dinner time, immediate seating and even when we left at 6:45 there were still plenty of open tables.
We drove home, over the mountains to Reno, on a Friday night with almost no traffic heading our way.

My neighborhood and many of those around me are becomming ghost towns due to foreclosures. Now the trend is the walk aways who can make their mortgage payments but have decided the loss of equity is not worth it. They are moving into the more upscale areas and renting for far less.

I know more and more people who are living somewhere else during the week (Vegas, Sacramento even the Bay Area) for work and coming back here on the weekends to be with their families where their homes are but they no longer can find work.

Costco runs out of the coupon book items on a regular basis.

The local schools are seeing drops in the enrollment numbers.

The local Univ. that DS attends has closed dorms due to kids living at home and not going away to school or the local kids who often would live on campus are staying at home and commuting to school.
DS's off campus student housing was 50% vacant this year, his townhouse that should have had 5 students in it has 2 students. The options for next year are wide open, there is lots to chose from.

Part time summer jobs for the teens and college crowd are pretty much non-existent. Several of DS's friends were going to stay here for the summer but they can't find jobs so they have to head back home to live with Mom & Dad.

Getting an appt. at our dentist used to take eons (several months for a check-up/cleaning), now, same week with a selection of appt. times.

My local Goodwill which has been my favorite place to shop for awhile now, is packed all the time! My favorite used book store has less selection since I am no longer one of the few who see the value in it! I've always been a bit frugal by nature and now the rest of the locals are catching on to my habits.

Whatever the symantics, the affects of the recession are far reaching and far from "over" not sure if they will ever really be over as we forever change how we do things, how we look at things etc. This is strictly the opinion of one looking out my very very small narrow window, not an educated economist, financial wizard or any other type that has an understanding of what truly defines recession and whether or not it is over.

 

[bicker]

I see what you mean, but I'm not convinced that the shift is permanent.

Fair enough. That we can surely agree to disagree about.

Yes it is. One of us must be getting smarter.

I'm too old (and stubborn) for it to be me.

 

[eliza61]

I agree the old normal wasn't sustainable. I don't think it was ever meant to be... It was just meant to keep people happy long enough to get past a point of no return, where the people will have no choice but to accept minimum wage without benefits as a new normal. We as a nation actively sought this, by allowing and even encouraging the consolidation of industries and the outsourcing of so much of our economic base with no care for anything but the fact that it got us a flood of cheap goods. Now all that is left are the jobs that can't be sent overseas or replaced with non-human inputs, the McJobs selling the cheap stuff made in China or grown in Chile, and we're left with the realization that there's no going back and no real path forward from here.

And I know I'm in a minority here, but I don't believe education alone is the answer. According to the latest figures I saw, about 24% of the jobs in our economy require a degree and about 27% of the working-age population has a degree. There's some mismatch in skills, of course, too many English majors and too few IT majors, but the fact remains that a college degree is only a path to prosperity for a rather small share of the workforce. The other 76% of jobs are the problem we can't have a healthy middle class driving a consumer-oriented economy based on only 24% of the workforce.

Oh heck no, I absolutely agree with you. You always give great points of views. We most definitely need a "all hands on deck" approach. education, retraining, job availabilities (sp?). I know one problem I see is that a lot of unemployed are in the boat I'm in. I'm middle aged, too young to retire, to old to start from scatch.

One thing that always makes me feel sad. You know how you go to Epcot and in every country you can buy authentic stuff from that country? Well that's in country except the american pavillion. I feel like writing a letter to Disney and saying "you mean in this entire country, you can't find one mom an pop operation to make some thing with a "made in America" label"

 

[yoopermom]

From a teacher's perspective (and one in MI, at that), I see closing of school (buildings), less electives being offered, class sizes getting smaller and smaller (as no one moves in, and those here choose not to have more), and a worry among staff and parents that the canyon between children in "good" schools and those in the rest of ours is growing.

And on a lighter note (somewhat) a Taco Johns opened in a nearby town and had over 150 applicants for 25 jobs. Who's working there and at most of the other fast food joints? Adults, NOT the teens who would have worked those jobs in years past.

Terri

 

[bicker]

One thing that always makes me feel sad. You know how you go to Epcot and in every country you can buy authentic stuff from that country? Well that's in country except the american pavillion.

The American Experience is not a national pavilion, like the rest of them are, but rather, instead, is the "host" pavilion. It presents The American Experience film, and has some colonial-inspired tchotchkes, but isn't intended to showcase America's greatest exports.

Walt Disney World, itself, does that.

One of America's greatest exports is entertainment, and Walt Disney World showcases the very best the United States has to offer in that regard.

I feel like writing a letter to Disney and saying "you mean in this entire country, you can't find one mom an pop operation to make some thing with a "made in America" label"

You really think that Helly Hansen is a "mom and pop" operation? or that Mitsukoshi is a "mom and pop" operation?

 

[Planogirl]

We aren't all entertainers though - that's the problem. I see the job market being squeezed and it's daunting for those of us with certain abilities.

 

[bicker]

Especially since many of the things we do other people are willing and able to do, just as well, for a lot less money.

 

[Jolly Ole Bert]

I suspect that the recovery will be quicker and better for knowledge workers and the well educated and slower and weaker for unskilled labor.

In my region, people with experience are getting the upper hand over those with college degrees. You'd think it would be the other way around. But a person with *some* college (no degree), with several years experience and people skills (preferably can speak multiple languages) is at a better advantage in the job hunt than somebody just out of college with a degree.

 

[Jolly Ole Bert]

Re-post. Sorry

 

[Carly_Roach]

Here's one huge non-monetary way the recession is affecting us:

http://www.wlns.com/Global/story.asp?S=12388399

Ingham County Votes to Eliminate Rural Patrols

Ingham County Commissioners are slashing through the county's budget to reduce a multi-million dollar deficit before 2011. Both township officials and residents from rural areas hoped to convince the board not to cut road patrols, but the decision has been made, next year thirteen rural townships will have to find new ways to pay for law enforcement.

Come 2011, many communities in the county that hosts our state representatives and our capitol won't have a police force. Some are saying they're going to try to get homeowners in those communities to pony up the dough for local police, but I'm betting those proposals which have to go up for a public vote will go down in flames.

And the hits just keep on hitting. This is the downside of lower wages and America becoming a service industry rather than a producing industry: services that depend on tax dollars don't get the tax dollars because people aren't working or they're underemployed, thus the tax dollars are fewer.

 

[bicker]

I think there are many examples of things that are or are going to be changing because of the shift in our economy (not necessarily "the recession"). Another example is Saturday mail delivery. Labor costs are up, and postal revenues are down. Nothing will get people to mail more letters, nor will anything make people happy about increasing postal rates again. Indeed, doing so will likely drive people to use USPS even less. So the remedy they're considering is simply dropping Saturday mail delivery.