No more virtual items on Ebay

[Xpdtion-futureWDI]

Does everybody agree here that you don't own the VIRTUAL items in VMK?

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but, you can't sell something you don't own right?(In the US, not sure about other countries) Hence the illegal part.

 

[mtlhddoc2]

Does everybody agree here that you don't own the VIRTUAL items in VMK?

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but, you can't sell something you don't own right?(In the US, not sure about other countries) Hence the illegal part.

Yes, technically you do not own the item, but if you read my post, you are also technically not selling the item. You are selling the transfer of the item. Since you are not removing the item from Disney property, there is no "sale" of said item, per se.

 

[mtlhddoc2]

Yes, "Agreement" is the word I was wanting to use, not "contract."

As for your comment about leaving the law to the legal eagles, I was not attempting to handle the law. I was trying to explain that just because something is not illegal, does not mean it is okay.

I would also like to add that I did not appreciate your comment. I am happily not a lawyer, but that does not mean that I do not understand the law. With many lawyers in the family, I have been a part of many discussions regarding legal issues.

Bottom line: We agree. Selling VMK items IS a violation of the user agreement and can be subject to consequences if Disney so chooses.

Thats great, but none of your posts sounded that way, it truly sounded as if you feel it is against the law, which it most certainly is not.

As for consequences: The only possible consequence is the banning from VMK, there are not others.

as for my comment, it was meant tongue-in-cheek (see the smiley after it?) I am not a lawyer either, but also have a few in the family. However, I do work EXTENSIVELY with copyright laws and property rights laws. This does not fall into either category, again, since there is no theft here at all. You do not remove anything from Disney, you do not copy anything from Disney. If I was to, say, download a Disney Wallpaper and put it on a CD and sell that, then that is a violation. but since nothing is leaving Disneys control, it does not fit. For example: You are in Walmart, you have the last Tickle Me Elmo in your hands. someone comes up to you and offers you $50 for it. You can take that money in good faith because it has not left the store and cannot leave the store until the other pseron checks it out. You "sold" it, sort of, but not really, what you "sold" was the right of the other person to hold it while in the store (and subsequently purchase it) - that is, in a nutshell, what is going on here. You are selling the right of transfer, not the actual item.

 

[Adventuredaz]

Does everybody agree here that you don't own the VIRTUAL items in VMK?

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but, you can't sell something you don't own right?(In the US, not sure about other countries) Hence the illegal part.

This argument does not work for a variety of reasons. I will try to simplify it in that, using that argument you also can not trade something you do not own. Everything in the game is virtual, both parties to a trade or sale have this understanding.

Generally selling something real you don't own would be theft and involve fraud and or obtaining property by false pretenses. These would be criminal offenses and enforcable. As stated anything involving the sale of virtual items would be civil, and damages are limited to actual provable damages. So to answer this, It appears we all agree selling your virtual items is against the TOS and that maximum penalty would be suspension of your account if you buy or sell if they were to chose to enforce this in this manner.

The resorces necesary to track down and punish the perpetrators of such heinous acts like selling virtual property would not be worth the damage it could create in bad will towards the company. VMK is essentually marketing and when marketing you always want to avoid having it turn around negtive against you. While I don't encourage it or participate, I do get a kick out of it and if people want to spend their real money on virtual items I say more power to them.

 

[Nanoer]

Future, I don't know if you know it but what your saying equally means that it's illegal to trade in VMK. Because your paying someone an item to acquire another item.

 

[Maleficent2]

Thats great, but none of your posts sounded that way, it truly sounded as if you feel it is against the law, which it most certainly is not.

As for consequences: The only possible consequence is the banning from VMK, there are not others.

as for my comment, it was meant tongue-in-cheek (see the smiley after it?) I am not a lawyer either, but also have a few in the family. However, I do work EXTENSIVELY with copyright laws and property rights laws. This does not fall into either category, again, since there is no theft here at all. You do not remove anything from Disney, you do not copy anything from Disney. If I was to, say, download a Disney Wallpaper and put it on a CD and sell that, then that is a violation. but since nothing is leaving Disneys control, it does not fit. For example: You are in Walmart, you have the last Tickle Me Elmo in your hands. someone comes up to you and offers you $50 for it. You can take that money in good faith because it has not left the store and cannot leave the store until the other pseron checks it out. You "sold" it, sort of, but not really, what you "sold" was the right of the other person to hold it while in the store (and subsequently purchase it) - that is, in a nutshell, what is going on here. You are selling the right of transfer, not the actual item.

Now that was a perfect example.

 

[mtlhddoc2]

Thanks Mal

Took me a while to get it out of legalese lol

 

[Disney Dreams]

... it truly sounded as if you feel it is against the law, which it most certainly is not....

Nope, I was trying to state that it is NOT against the law, but it IS a violation of an agreement that a player agreed to.

As for your example, again, agreed. It is the difference between selling a concert ticket and selling the bracelet for your spot in line to buy a concert ticket.

 

[4orm]

Also a minor (I myself am not) can't legally enter into a binding contract.

 

[Nanoer]

Also a minor (I myself am not) can't legally enter into a binding contract.

Well it depends on the contract really.. If your 13 and it's over the internet you can. If your under then your parents have to enter it.

 

[darkacre]

The law about you can't sell something you don't own.

You didn't answer the question. What law is that, exactly? Cite me a code section, a case, a regulation that applies here. Which law are you claiming?

Answer: it isn't out there.

Yes, there are contracts, but the law actually permits people to breach almost any contract, as long as you pay any damages caused by your breach.

Well it depends on the contract really.. If your 13 and it's over the internet you can. If your under then your parents have to enter it.

Actually, nanoer, a contract with a 13 year old is voidable by the child. You cannot enter into a binding agreement with a minor.

 

[Xpdtion-futureWDI]

I'm with everybody now that it isn't against the law..

You didn't answer the question. What law is that, exactly? Cite me a code section, a case, a regulation that applies here. Which law are you claiming?

Answer: it isn't out there.

So you're saying it's legal to sell something you don't own? Selling something you don't own is fraud. Fruad is illegal.

 

[eseller]

So far, ebay has removed a few hundred listings for VMK items in the last 24 hours, I suspect they will remove most of the rest of them shortly.

 

[darkacre]

I'm with everybody now that it isn't against the law..

So you're saying it's legal to sell something you don't own? Selling something you don't own is fraud. Fruad is illegal.

It can be legal to do what you might consider "selling" or something you might consider to me something I don't "own." Ownership, under the law, is nothing more than a bundle of rights that government affords a particular person regarding a particular thing. If I make it so that my bundle of rights to an object, be that the use of a game character, a card, or the secret to how you can save time playing a game, is suddenly available to you in exchange for me getting $X from you, I have not defrauded you, nor broken any law. So, for the third time, cite me a case, a statute, a regulation that says selling such things is illegal, and I'll admit that you are right. If you can't do that, please stop running around proclaiming what you think to be the law.

 

[darkacre]

So far, ebay has removed a few hundred listings for VMK items in the last 24 hours, I suspect they will remove most of the rest of them shortly.

They must be moving slowly, or only targeting certain kinds of listings, because as of noon today, PST, there were still over 250 VMK items on sale on eBay, including several that were "virtual only" (as in, no cards or pins).

 

[Goofy_Bob]

This may be somewhat off topic (and if so, please remove)... I don't see any real problem with selling VMK "things" on eBay, even knowing they aren't really things just the right to transfer use of said things (as doc so well explained in his Elmo analogy). I will admit I've spent a buck or three on a couple of VMK eBay items over the last 9 months. Mostly I wanted the cards, and I've spent the same amount on baseball cards in the past so I figure it's a fair deal. The fact that I get an unused codeis only icing on the virtual cake.

Again, let me say, a couple dollars seems ok to me. That's just my opinion. But what I find amazingly stoopid are the people who spend hundreds of dollars on things like Inferno, Stitch or even ten times that on Green Flips. I mean...

OMG!​

I also wonder on how appropraite it is for people to be selling something they don't have/that isn't even released yet, like in this auction.

 

[Nanoer]

You didn't answer the question. What law is that, exactly? Cite me a code section, a case, a regulation that applies here. Which law are you claiming?

Answer: it isn't out there.

Yes, there are contracts, but the law actually permits people to breach almost any contract, as long as you pay any damages caused by your breach.



Actually, nanoer, a contract with a 13 year old is voidable by the child. You cannot enter into a binding agreement with a minor.

Um... no it's not if it's an internet privacy one. lol.. Every forum, game etc. online makes you agree to it. The contract is that you don't hold the owner liable and you know what your doing by agreeing to it.

 

[mickey@dvc]

This is just turning into a useless arguement.

 

[PrincessDonnaT]

This may be somewhat off topic (and if so, please remove)... I don't see any real problem with selling VMK "things" on eBay, even knowing they aren't really things just the right to transfer use of said things (as doc so well explained in his Elmo analogy). I will admit I've spent a buck or three on a couple of VMK eBay items over the last 9 months. Mostly I wanted the cards, and I've spent the same amount on baseball cards in the past so I figure it's a fair deal. The fact that I get an unused codeis only icing on the virtual cake.

Again, let me say, a couple dollars seems ok to me. That's just my opinion. But what I find amazingly stoopid are the people who spend hundreds of dollars on things like Inferno, Stitch or even ten times that on Green Flips. I mean...

OMG!​

I also wonder on how appropraite it is for people to be selling something they don't have/that isn't even released yet, like in this auction.

The really amazing thing is that the seller who is selling a card that has not been released yet has had 19 negatives over the past 12 months and people are still bidding on her auctions... Wake up people! Feedback is there for a reason....take the hint from other buyers.

 

[Xpdtion-futureWDI]

It can be legal to do what you might consider "selling" or something you might consider to me something I don't "own." Ownership, under the law, is nothing more than a bundle of rights that government affords a particular person regarding a particular thing. If I make it so that my bundle of rights to an object, be that the use of a game character, a card, or the secret to how you can save time playing a game, is suddenly available to you in exchange for me getting $X from you, I have not defrauded you, nor broken any law. So, for the third time, cite me a case, a statute, a regulation that says selling such things is illegal, and I'll admit that you are right. If you can't do that, please stop running around proclaiming what you think to be the law.

Are you saying that it's legal to sell a car that you parents bought for you? Even though the title has their name on it and they own it? So, cite me a case, a statute, a regulation that says doing this is legal, and I'll admit that you are right.