NJ Supreme Court: Gays have same rights as Heterosexuals

Try thinking about it this way: this decision is genius. Here's why.

1. It's essentially unanimous. All seven justices agreed that depriving gays of rights associated with marriage is unconstitutional per the equal protection clause. Let there be no doubt: seven of the brightest legal minds in New Jersey agree that this is unequivocally the case.

2. So let's say that you're among the seven bright legal minds, and you heard the case last February and sat down to deliberate. It quickly becomes clear that all seven of you agree. All seven of you even agree on the legal framework underscoring the argument, which is nearly miraculous (as you know if you're a frequent reader of Supreme Court opinions). So since it's immediately apparent that you're going to be issuing a major, culturally significant, socially virulent policy change ...

3. You start talking about the right way to do it. None of them are immune to the "activist judges, legislating from the bench, jamming decisions down our throat" criticism. They may even agree with it, to some degree. They're also fully aware that while the argument associating equal protection with the rights associated with marriage is constitutionally sound, any argument about the word "marriage" - and its religious and social implications - is far grayer. It's extremely difficult to defend, constitutionally.

4. This is important: at least three of the seven justices feel that "marriage" is defensible from a legal perspective. In all likelihood, most of the other four personally feel that marriage *should be* the term that is used. That's the tacit agreement in the intellectual circles to which these people belong, and we tend to agree with our friends, yes/no? :) They just don't feel that the semantics around the word form an easily defensible point, constitutionally. Besides, they realize the obvious and they see an incredible opportunity.

5. The obvious: if their decision enforces marital rights AND the use of the term "marriage" to describe them, the conservatives, especially those in the New Jersey Assembly, will have a field day. From a PR perspective, this would be a gigantic win for them. They'd be licking their chops. This could literally become a presidential issue in '08. "Those activist judges are forcing you to accept a biblical sin ... this is not the America you want for your children ... galvanize! and vote to help us reduce the power of the judiciary ... show those hyperintellectual liberal snobs in robes that they can't touch the moral righteousness of Joe Bob, the working man ..."

6. The opportunity: if the decision enforces the marital rights BUT passes the semantic question of their name back to the Assembly, the following happens:
- The win is there. The rights must be granted. The assembly has to eat that.
- The sense that the legislature got to weigh in is there. It's a lot more difficult for the media to freak out about the activist judges.
- Every New Jersey assemblyman will have to go on record with a vote. "Are you pro or are you against?" It forces the legislature to play their cards. And in this state of a slight majority in favor of gay rights, it becomes very difficult to play politics.
- It'll keep the gay rights groups from exploding with joy over a major win and likely hurting their chances in other states with the resulting social backlash.
- It keeps the debate alive. It pours more fuel into public dialogue around "what is equal." Read the decision to see where the justices tell the Plaintiffs that 'their fight has just begun.' These justices want evolving social attitudes to eventually pull the trigger to call gay marriage what it is - marriage. It's OK if it takes 10 years, even 20 years, for the word to enter the common vocabulary, so long as the rights associated with marriage are there much sooner - within 6 months.

7. So here's the solution, they decide. We will write two essentially concurring opinions. The first will set forth the rights without the name. Four of us will sign that one, and our decision is in stone. The second will go further. It will expressly say that marriage by any other name is still marriage, that a rose by any other name is still a rose and eventually will be called for what it simply is - a rose. It will close with a powerful quote, and as telling will be the power of the three justices who will sign it: the Chief, who will retire two hours after the decision is announced and regards this decision as her kiss goodbye. The new Chief, a man of both compassion and religion, a graduate of one Catholic law school who then taught at another. And the best friend of the departing chief, female and fresh, the one who had the guts to ask the core question at the February hearing: "How is that a harm, a change in its meaning [marriage]?" Even better, all three were named to the court by a Republican governor. :)

The NJ Assembly is going to spend the next two months whipping itself up in a mighty frenzy over one simple word - marriage. By separating the rights from the term, the NJ Supreme Court has pulled the reason and the logic out of the moralistic morass and demanded that they become law. So the only fight that's left is about emotions and feelings surrounding a word, and the important debates that will ensue will help us identify which legislators are truly worthwhile.

It's genius.

They couldn't have done it better. If the gay rights groups are truly smart, they'll simply start calling it gay marriage. TODAY. Because the rose by any other name ---

I felt proud today to be born, raised, educated and employed in New Jersey. :)

P.S. Assemblyman Richard Merkt will lead the charge against the term "marriage." His daughter was my high school classmate. We all thought she was a lesbian, and fully supported her in that. This truly astounds us. It's sad.

P.P.S. This decision comes from the state capital, Trenton, also known as the birthplace of Antonin Scalia. HAAAAAAAAAAA
 
Uncle Remus said:
Congratulations!
Maybe the rest of the country will catch up in next 20-40 years :goodvibes

Could we begin with Washington State? I don't think I'd get married any time soon...but I sure would love to have the right to. :goodvibes
 
People all have the same rights already --

Any adult single man can marrry a woman.

Any adult single woman can marry a man.

Anyone who doesn't want to get married can stay single.
 
JoeEpcotRocks said:
People all have the same rights already --

Any adult single man can marrry a woman.

Any adult single woman can marry a man.

Anyone who doesn't want to get married can stay single.
:rolleyes:
 
Yes, I suppose in it's very heterosexist and narrow-minded point of view, it is technically true.

Just sad, and excludes many people from sharing the joys and legal benefits of marriage.
 
basas said:
What is there to role your eyes about?

Is it not true?

Ugh, 2 points:
A) How many times do we have to point out that a parallel argument justifies keeping interracial marriage illegal?

Everyone has the same rights:
black people can only marry people of their own race
white people can only marry people of their own race
etc, etc.

I think it's pretty obvious that if your argument justifies keeping interracial marriage illegal, then it's an argument that's got to go. Is this not obvious to anyone?

B) I'm just going to repost what I've posted before in response to this same old tired argument:

It sounds like this is a matter of thinking of equality as sameness. So, for instance, there was a supreme court case in which women were suing insurance companies which refused to cover pregnancy related expenses for sex discrimination. Renquist argued that there couldn't be sex discrimination because no one got pregnancy covered--not females and not males. So everyone had the same rights. So what were these women complaining about. Well I think it's clear what the women were complaining about. Similar logic would show that insurance companies need not cover gynecological exams, breast cancer, ovarain cancer, cervical cancer, etc and this would not be sex discrimination. What Renquist essentially said was "Men are normal. Insurance companies base their decisions of what to cover off the bodies of men. You are treated the same as a man (and the fact that you are obviously and undeniably different than a man doesn't matter)--sameness = equality."

Now I think it is clear that there is a huge problem with this understanding of what equality is. Women bodies on this understanding can get treated like sh*t and that can't be a violation of equal rights, because women's bodies are different than mens! Well who the heck decided men were the standard for human normalcy!? Now maybe you're not convinced by this example--maybe you think it really isn't sex discrimination for insurance to cover all problems unique to males and no problems unique to females.

Even if you think that's true, this example still shows that there is another way to understand equality, and anyone concerned about women AT ALL has good reason to understand equality in this other way. This other way has to say something like "when investigating whether things are equal we have to take into consideration how different groups are--by virtue of their membership of that group--differentially situated." The differential purpose and the intent of the law in question has to be investigated. So in Loving v. Virgina, I believe the court said that even though whites and blacks were being treated the same, the purpose of the law was to reinforce the supposed inferiority of blacks and the law had differential effects on blacks and whites--no one prejudices against whites were reinforced as a result of the law. And that was not equality.

Now you might not agree with the Loving vision of equality. But it exists and you have to admit that it not insane to think of equality that way given the pregnancy case. If anything, it seems insane to think of equality in the way the pregnancy case does (the "we can all marry one person of the opposite sex/same race; doesn't matter who we love or who we are attraced to".) So while you might not agree with Loving view of equality and you might want to argue against it, but you do have to acknowledge its existence and its legitimacy as one non-crazy way to look at equality.

So stop putting us on the defensive. If anything, we are employing the more sensible view of equality. Please explain to us why your version of equality is so great. Because a version of equality that results in racist and sexist results--that just doesn't seem like equality to me!
 
smartestnumber5 said:
I think it's pretty obvious that if your argument justifies keeping interracial marriage illegal, then it's an argument that's got to go. Is this not obvious to anyone?

Oooh, me! Pick me! It's obvious to me! :rotfl:
 
Don't let one or two right-of-Rush posters monopolize the thread. The good news: they are in the vast, vast minority. This world rewards authentic thinkers, not drivel-spewers. :)
 
Caradana said:
Don't let one or two right-of-Rush posters monopolize the thread. The good news: they are in the vast, vast minority. This world rewards authentic thinkers, not drivel-spewers. :)

How tolerant of you. :rolleyes:

Those who agree with you are "authentic thinkers".

Those who disagree are "drivel-spewers."
 
JoeEpcotRocks said:
People all have the same rights already --

Any adult single man can marrry a woman.

Any adult single woman can marry a man.

Anyone who doesn't want to get married can stay single.
But they don't have the same rights. Gay people do not have the right to marry the person that they love and heteros do.

If the law was that I had to marry a girl, because that's what most people liked, I'd be kinda ticked. I happen to like guys.

You have got to be able to acknowledge that the law isn't equal...even if you happen to like the law the way it is.
 
Just bumping to say hooray for New Jersey! :rainbow: Even if they do just end up calling it "civil unions" instead of the correct term--marriage--it's still awesome!

And nyah nyah nyah to those who don't approve. :p
 
Caradana said:
Don't let one or two right-of-Rush posters monopolize the thread. The good news: they are in the vast, vast minority. This world rewards authentic thinkers, not drivel-spewers. :)

::yes::
 
JoeEpcotRocks said:
People all have the same rights already --

Any adult single man can marrry a woman.

Any adult single woman can marry a man.

Anyone who doesn't want to get married can stay single.

It's a good thing you're not a lawyer, for that argument would get you laughed out of court.

As a heterosexual United States citizen, you are allowed to enter into a legally recognized relationship with a person you love that gives both partners in that relationship legal standing and rights. As a homosexual United States citizen, at present time in the vast majority of the country, you are not allowed to enter into a legally recognized relationship with a person you love that gives both partners in that relationship legal standing and rights.

Other posters reading Joe's remarks should never forget his answer when once pressed whether the bible or the Constitution takes precedence in this country;

"The Constitution, unless there is something specific that is contrary to the Word of God, then as a Christian, the Bible would have to take precedence."

Virtually all opposition to gay marriage is rooted in religious dogma and outright prejudice, and thankfully we live in a country where the Constitution trumps all, much to the apparent dismay of those who structure their lives under the misconception that their personal brand of discriminatory religious zealotry should apply to one and all.
 
I think that the NJ court handled it exactly the right way. Anything more would have taken the power away from the legislature, which is where law making should be. It's going to be an interesting 6 months around here as the politicians test the wind to see how they're going to vote. Gov Corzine has already said that he favors domestic partnerships over redefining marriage.

My religion opposes gay marriage, so the only thing I'm interested in is that Churches that oppose it continue to be left alone-no protest marches, no civil rights lawsuits. There haven't been any problems in MA, so there shouldn't be any here either.
 
Fitswimmer said:
I think that the NJ court handled it exactly the right way. Anything more would have taken the power away from the legislature, which is where law making should be. It's going to be an interesting 6 months around here as the politicians test the wind to see how they're going to vote. Gov Corzine has already said that he favors domestic partnerships over redefining marriage.

My religion opposes gay marriage, so the only thing I'm interested in is that Churches that oppose it continue to be left alone-no protest marches, no civil rights lawsuits. There haven't been any problems in MA, so there shouldn't be any here either.

Well said, and as a hetersexual proponent of gay marriage, I would fear for any sort of push to force a religious institution to perform a marriage that it was opposed to. That would be a blatant violation of Church and State.

In the two-plus years that gay marriage has been legal here in Massachusetts, the sun continues to rise and set each day and the very fabric of civilization continues unabated. Just as it will everywhere else in time, despite the cries of those who need to be dragged along kicking and screaming.

On a lighter note, perhaps the best thing about the court's decision is that they've now given everyone six months to plan their weddings!
 
Mugg Mann said:
In the two-plus years that gay marriage has been legal here in Massachusetts, the sun continues to rise and set each day and the very fabric of civilization continues unabated.
I can confirm Mugg Mann's observations. The sun really did rise this morning in MA. And heterosexual marriage hasn't been destroyed (despite the predictions of our governor) or even dented.

Nobody has been harmed by having the government recognize gay marriage. Lots of people are better off. For the life of me I can't imagine why anybody would oppose something that helps people while harming no one.
 
Mugg Mann said:
Other posters reading Joe's remarks should never forget his answer when once pressed whether the bible or the Constitution takes precedence in this country;

"The Constitution, unless there is something specific that is contrary to the Word of God, then as a Christian, the Bible would have to take precedence."

::yes::

As sadly he is not the only American that thinks that way. :sad2: Maybe his LCIC cult would be happier if they started another country with a new Constitution that puts the bible first.
 





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