NEW VGF Building

[CastAStone]

Maybe to state another way, yes this will make VGF as big as say an OKW or others for studios, but most of those units aren't fought over at 11 months because people buy OKW or SSR as SAPs. I don't think VGF points will be treated the same in *most cases*. Poly is probably more analogous here, and it appears to retain some value above other resorts because there are enough buyers who still care about avoiding the 7 months stress, even if there's evidence that says they can get in more often than not

None of the original owners but Old Key West or Saratoga Springs for sleep around points. And nearly all of those original owners are still owners. I believe @wdrl determined that even all these years later, 75% of Old Key West points are still owned by the original owners. Difficulty to book at 7 months is almost perfectly correlated to resort size, Polynesian is honestly the big outlier - It’s easier to book a studio there than you would expect based on resort size, and my guess is it’s because it has so many (it has a lot more than VGF will even after this)

I also think we will see a glut of DVC points that need to be used within the next couple of years. How will this effect availability?

I don’t think we need to speculate anymore, availability is horrendous right now.

 

[emmymac17]

Nope, not crazy at all! I have a 50-point contract to use for a few of nights at a time by banking/borrowing.

Good to hear that works out! We have plenty (i.e., 350 points) at Riviera for our 'big' family trips but think it'd be so fun to mix it up with a few studio nights for myself, a friend, maybe one other family member at a really fun time of year. I guess it'll depend a bit on prices, but for a small contract its not too big of a hit even if its pretty expensive out of the gate...

 

[davidl81]

By this logic, no one should buy any points direct in the O14. But instead...

April 2021
64,018 O14 points sold (42% of all points sold)

March 2021
50,096 O14 points sold (41% of all points sold)

Feb 2021
45,451 O14 points sold (39% of all points sold)

Jan 2021
36,586 O14 points sold (42% of all points sold)

O14 points have sold disproportionately well against the restricted points being sold today at Riviera. Back in 2018...

April 2018
23,206 Non-CCV/PVB points sold (15% of all points sold)

March 2018
32,495 Non-CCV/PVB points sold (14% of all points sold)

Feb 2018
22,079 Non-CCV/PVB points sold (10% of all points sold)

Jan 2018
26,413 Non-CCV/PVB points sold (11% of all points sold)

Without the restrictions people will certainly want to buy Disney’s sure-to-be-over-priced VGF direct anyway for all the same reasons they buy direct today.

And the biggest reason people will buy it will be the simple fact that it’s what Disney will be actively selling.

I wonder if this is a function of people just having extra cash during COVID and wanting to just add on to what they already have, or is this a function of the RIV restrictions/high point chart?

 

[CastAStone]

I wonder if this is a function of people just having extra cash during COVID and wanting to just add on to what they already have, or is this a function of the RIV restrictions/high point chart?

Or DVC having offers on Sold Out Resorts for the first time.

 

[davidl81]

Moreover, unless the point inflation we saw with the 2022 point chart is corrected, these additional units could confound those arguments. The new units will allow for more points to be added. If these new unit points are plopped ontop of the inflated points, then it compounds the inherent problems: Ownership dilution as the points reflect a percentage of ownership in a unit, likelihood for increased breakage, chart points that are not offset= greater points needed to reserve in 2022 as compared to 2021. The timing of the resort conversion to DVC and when the point charts may or may not be revised is very interesting.

I am confused about this 2022 point chart. My understanding is that DVC can never increase the total number of points needed to book at the resort. They can reallocate points (ie make a studio more points, but then decrease the 1BD etc), but at the end the total points needed to book the resort have to stay flat. They can also shift the amount of points needed to stay at a certain time of the year, but if they increase somewhere they must decrease somewhere else. It has to be a NET 0.

 

[OKW Lover]

You're correct @davidl81. There is a little wiggle room for number of days in a year (leap year) and the number of week days vs weekend days in a year.

 

[Leight19]

I am confused about this 2022 point chart. My understanding is that DVC can never increase the total number of points needed to book at the resort. They can reallocate points (ie make a studio more points, but then decrease the 1BD etc), but at the end the total points needed to book the resort have to stay flat. They can also shift the amount of points needed to stay at a certain time of the year, but if they increase somewhere they must decrease somewhere else. It has to be a NET 0.

Yeah this is how it’s suppose to work but this year they tried to get creative to justify adding more points in system (roughly 0.5% across all resorts). They got a ton of push back and current rumor is they will be releasing updated point charts for second half of 2022 to address.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

I am confused about this 2022 point chart. My understanding is that DVC can never increase the total number of points needed to book at the resort. They can reallocate points (ie make a studio more points, but then decrease the 1BD etc), but at the end the total points needed to book the resort have to stay flat. They can also shift the amount of points needed to stay at a certain time of the year, but if they increase somewhere they must decrease somewhere else. It has to be a NET 0.

You're correct @davidl81. There is a little wiggle room for number of days in a year (leap year) and the number of week days vs weekend days in a year.

Check out this thread: https://www.disboards.com/threads/dvc-point-balancing-2022-vs-2021.3820183/

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Back to the matter of VGF and possible resale restrictions... I certainly don't think DVC will do anything out of "the kindness of their hearts" but they do have to abide by their legal obligations. I absolutely think they will have their lawyers looking for the loophole that will allow resale restrictions on these new contracts, but I think they're going to have to get very creative to find one.

Given that they've already stated these new villas will be part of the original VGF association, I think they've painted themselves into a corner that can't include resale restrictions. There are some ways that they could impose resale restrictions, but I don't think any of them are an option legally if the new villas are part of the same association as the existing ones.

It will be interesting to see if they attempt to impose resale restrictions and, if so, on what basis (and if that basis is on shaky legal ground). Depending on how this is handled, I could see it being the catalyst for a legal battle. Owners have been somewhat resigned about Riviera resale restrictions (more on that below), but I think it would push a lot of owners over the edge to take action if they try it with the VGF expansion.

As I alluded above, I think a case could be made for Riviera restrictions being illegal. The justification for the restrictions is that Riviera didn't "join" the trading partnership of BVTC. That being the case, I think they could make the case for not allowing any owners to trade in or out of it. They could even make the case that future resorts can trade in and out with other "DVC II" resorts if they created a separate BVTC II.

But where they've muddied the waters is that direct Riviera owners CAN trade into the O14. And direct (and grandfathered resale) O14 owners CAN trade into Riviera and future resorts. If Riviera is not part of BVTC for trading, how can they allow trading for some owners, but single out a specific class of owners?

Then there are the other arguments about how the restrictions hurt direct owners as well because if/when they try to sell, the new owner will be subject to these restrictions.

If enough people challenge it, Riviera resale restrictions could possibly be overturned, not because of DVC's magnanimity, but because they are forced to drop them. Wishful thinking? Perhaps. But given the recent point chart challenges, and the possibility for VGF 1.1 to create further conflict, this could be the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of owners standing idly by and accepting the Riviera resale restrictions.

 

[Bjaiken77]

Back to the matter of VGF and possible resale restrictions... I certainly don't think DVC will do anything out of "the kindness of their hearts" but they do have to abide by their legal obligations. I absolutely think they will have their lawyers looking for the loophole that will allow resale restrictions on these new contracts, but I think they're going to have to get very creative to find one.

Given that they've already stated these new villas will be part of the original VGF association, I think they've painted themselves into a corner that can't include resale restrictions. There are some ways that they could impose resale restrictions, but I don't think any of them are an option legally if the new villas are part of the same association as the existing ones.

It will be interesting to see if they attempt to impose resale restrictions and, if so, on what basis (and if that basis is on shaky legal ground). Depending on how this is handled, I could see it being the catalyst for a legal battle. Owners have been somewhat resigned about Riviera resale restrictions (more on that below), but I think it would push a lot of owners over the edge to take action if they try it with the VGF expansion.

As I alluded above, I think a case could be made for Riviera restrictions being illegal. The justification for the restrictions is that Riviera didn't "join" the trading partnership of BVTC. That being the case, I think they could make the case for not allowing any owners to trade in or out of it. They could even make the case that future resorts can trade in and out with other "DVC II" resorts.

But where they've muddied the waters is that direct Riviera owners CAN trade into the O14. And direct (and grandfathered resale) owners CAN trade into Riviera and future resorts. If Riviera is not part of BVTC for trading, how can they allow trading for some owners, but single out a specific class of owners?

Then there are the other arguments about how the restrictions hurt direct owners as well because if/when they try to sell, the new owner will be subject to these restrictions.

If enough people challenge it, Riviera resale restrictions could possibly be overturned, not because of DVC's magnanimity, but because they are forced to drop them. Wishful thinking? Perhaps. But given the recent point chart challenges, and the possibility for VGF 1.1 to create further conflict, this could be the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of owners standing idly by and accepting the Riviera resale restrictions.

Why hire a bunch of lawyers when dropping the restrictions is just so easy? I’m dumb, and I can figure that one out.

 

[Bjaiken77]

But given the recent point chart challenges, and the possibility for VGF 1.1 to create further conflict, this could be the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of owners standing idly by and accepting the Riviera resale restrictions.

 

[Matty B13]

Imagine trying to be the sales guide that has to explain all the restrictions on resale contracts between O14, RIV, and VGF 2.0 if pressed by a educated buyer.

 

[zavandor]

Back to the matter of VGF and possible resale restrictions... I certainly don't think DVC will do anything out of "the kindness of their hearts" but they do have to abide by their legal obligations. I absolutely think they will have their lawyers looking for the loophole that will allow resale restrictions on these new contracts, but I think they're going to have to get very creative to find one.

Given that they've already stated these new villas will be part of the original VGF association, I think they've painted themselves into a corner that can't include resale restrictions. There are some ways that they could impose resale restrictions, but I don't think any of them are an option legally if the new villas are part of the same association as the existing ones.

It will be interesting to see if they attempt to impose resale restrictions and, if so, on what basis (and if that basis is on shaky legal ground). Depending on how this is handled, I could see it being the catalyst for a legal battle. Owners have been somewhat resigned about Riviera resale restrictions (more on that below), but I think it would push a lot of owners over the edge to take action if they try it with the VGF expansion.

As I alluded above, I think a case could be made for Riviera restrictions being illegal. The justification for the restrictions is that Riviera didn't "join" the trading partnership of BVTC. That being the case, I think they could make the case for not allowing any owners to trade in or out of it. They could even make the case that future resorts can trade in and out with other "DVC II" resorts if they created a separate BVTC II.

But where they've muddied the waters is that direct Riviera owners CAN trade into the O14. And direct (and grandfathered resale) O14 owners CAN trade into Riviera and future resorts. If Riviera is not part of BVTC for trading, how can they allow trading for some owners, but single out a specific class of owners?

Then there are the other arguments about how the restrictions hurt direct owners as well because if/when they try to sell, the new owner will be subject to these restrictions.

If enough people challenge it, Riviera resale restrictions could possibly be overturned, not because of DVC's magnanimity, but because they are forced to drop them. Wishful thinking? Perhaps. But given the recent point chart challenges, and the possibility for VGF 1.1 to create further conflict, this could be the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of owners standing idly by and accepting the Riviera resale restrictions.

Have a look at this thread:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...t-to-revert-dvcs-resale-restrictions.3747861/
Shortly after the resale restrictions were announced, that thread looked into the legalities. Conclusion was that the resale restrictions are probably illegal, but since everyone was grandfathered in, there weren't enough people motivated to enforce a rollback with a lawsuit (like we threatened to do with the 2020 charts). However at any moment resale purchasers of the O14 could still do it. When they buy, they get the same rights and obligations of existing owners, including the legal rights to enforce the POS.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Imagine trying to be the sales guide that has to explain all the restrictions on resale contracts between O14, RIV, and VGF 2.0 if pressed by a educated buyer.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Shortly after the resale restrictions were announced, that thread looked into the legalities. Conclusion was that the resale restrictions are probably illegal, but since everyone was grandfathered in, there weren't enough people motivated to enforce a rollback with a lawsuit (like we threatened to do with the 2020 charts). However at any moment resale purchasers of the O14 could still do it. When they buy, they get the same rights and obligations of existing owners, including the legal rights to enforce the POS.

Well most everyone, anyway. But more and more people will NOT be grandfathered in over time. And even direct Riviera owners are impacted by the restrictions.

It's mind-boggling to me that the response of the membership is that, yeah, those restrictions are probably illegal. Meh.

I think that just encourages TPTB to keep pushing the envelope with regards to what they can get away with. It will be interesting to see if they take a more cautious approach with the VGF expansion. If not, it could be a tipping point for many.

 

[Bjaiken77]

Imagine trying to be the sales guide that has to explain all the restrictions on resale contracts between O14, RIV, and VGF 2.0 if pressed by a educated buyer.

Imagine being a sales guide and encountering the non-educated buyer. Imagine the looks they get from the average person as they try to explain this stuff.

 

[Sandisw]

Back to the matter of VGF and possible resale restrictions... I certainly don't think DVC will do anything out of "the kindness of their hearts" but they do have to abide by their legal obligations. I absolutely think they will have their lawyers looking for the loophole that will allow resale restrictions on these new contracts, but I think they're going to have to get very creative to find one.

Given that they've already stated these new villas will be part of the original VGF association, I think they've painted themselves into a corner that can't include resale restrictions. There are some ways that they could impose resale restrictions, but I don't think any of them are an option legally if the new villas are part of the same association as the existing ones.

It will be interesting to see if they attempt to impose resale restrictions and, if so, on what basis (and if that basis is on shaky legal ground). Depending on how this is handled, I could see it being the catalyst for a legal battle. Owners have been somewhat resigned about Riviera resale restrictions (more on that below), but I think it would push a lot of owners over the edge to take action if they try it with the VGF expansion.

As I alluded above, I think a case could be made for Riviera restrictions being illegal. The justification for the restrictions is that Riviera didn't "join" the trading partnership of BVTC. That being the case, I think they could make the case for not allowing any owners to trade in or out of it. They could even make the case that future resorts can trade in and out with other "DVC II" resorts if they created a separate BVTC II.

But where they've muddied the waters is that direct Riviera owners CAN trade into the O14. And direct (and grandfathered resale) O14 owners CAN trade into Riviera and future resorts. If Riviera is not part of BVTC for trading, how can they allow trading for some owners, but single out a specific class of owners?

Then there are the other arguments about how the restrictions hurt direct owners as well because if/when they try to sell, the new owner will be subject to these restrictions.

If enough people challenge it, Riviera resale restrictions could possibly be overturned, not because of DVC's magnanimity, but because they are forced to drop them. Wishful thinking? Perhaps. But given the recent point chart challenges, and the possibility for VGF 1.1 to create further conflict, this could be the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of owners standing idly by and accepting the Riviera resale restrictions.

Which is why I think they purposely put out it’s the same association. They could have not and tried to find a way to make it new like CCV, but they did not.

That is why we won’t see resale restrictions. May have had to do more to do that vs, just adding it to VGF in its current form.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Imagine being a sales guide and encountering the non-educated buyer. Imagine the looks they get from the average person as they try to explain this stuff.

Still works.

 

[Lorana]

Back to the matter of VGF and possible resale restrictions... I certainly don't think DVC will do anything out of "the kindness of their hearts" but they do have to abide by their legal obligations. I absolutely think they will have their lawyers looking for the loophole that will allow resale restrictions on these new contracts, but I think they're going to have to get very creative to find one.

I am no lawyer, so I have no idea if this is actually legal. However, if you look at AKV, Jambo and Kidani are actually SEPARATE ownerships. Your contract is points at one or the other and specifies which resort you own at. I feel that the new VGF Big Pines building could fall into this - it's in the existing condo association the way Jambo and Kidani are both part of the same, but is a distinct ownership and thus could have its own contract terms -- including resale restrictions.

I also fall into the camp that expects that DVC will create new categories for these studios, and expect them to be more expensive given the larger size for them.

 

[Lorana]

As I alluded above, I think a case could be made for Riviera restrictions being illegal. The justification for the restrictions is that Riviera didn't "join" the trading partnership of BVTC. That being the case, I think they could make the case for not allowing any owners to trade in or out of it. They could even make the case that future resorts can trade in and out with other "DVC II" resorts if they created a separate BVTC II.

But where they've muddied the waters is that direct Riviera owners CAN trade into the O14. And direct (and grandfathered resale) O14 owners CAN trade into Riviera and future resorts. If Riviera is not part of BVTC for trading, how can they allow trading for some owners, but single out a specific class of owners?

Then there are the other arguments about how the restrictions hurt direct owners as well because if/when they try to sell, the new owner will be subject to these restrictions.

If enough people challenge it, Riviera resale restrictions could possibly be overturned, not because of DVC's magnanimity, but because they are forced to drop them. Wishful thinking? Perhaps. But given the recent point chart challenges, and the possibility for VGF 1.1 to create further conflict, this could be the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of owners standing idly by and accepting the Riviera resale restrictions.

These are all excellent points, and things that had been niggling in the back of my head and had me wondering if it was illegal or not (as a resale owner who falls under the restrictions and who read the POS and was confused as to how restrictions could be done with the original agreements; obviously, the POS of Riviera seems to have been written to allow it). But I also hadn't researched FL Timeshare law (nor am I a lawyer or asked a lawyer). But I hadn't realized this had been discussed and generally shrugged off. I suppose it shouldn't surprise me given the initial general reaction to the point inflation that happened in the 2022 charts (as well as the response to 7 seasons) until enough people had done enough research and had enough conversation that enough people realized there was a problem.

But back to VGF... I am very curious to see at what price point these will go on sale, and what the point chart will look like. Do they release the points charts when sales start so we can see what it's like? I'm not sure I want to own at VGF over, say, more CCV points or buying into Poly, but I also can be convinced if the price point is low enough. But I feel that they probably won't offer incentives on small contracts, and I'm not necessarily interested in 100+ points. Unless, again, the point cost is low enough.

But if this makes studio availability better, it's more of an argument for me to add on points elsewhere with the hope that at 7 months I can, on occasion, stay at VGF. Especially as we've been debating slowly converting some of our resale points to direct points, just so we CAN use our points at Riviera (where we own) to upgrade or extend trips, and at future resorts. For example, with incentives currently offered on SSR, we are debating if now is the time to sell our resale contracts and buy SSR direct. BUT, if WDW may back away from resale restrictions when they release the new VGF points, maybe we might want to switch to VGF as our SAP points if the price is low enough. Decisions, decisions!