New Owner Info form asks for SSN

[Muushka]

"Have you run a criminal background check on each employee here that will have access to this form after I complete it?"

That is a great question to ask! I will use it too, thanks!

I had to take an on-line course of a FEMA managment study because I work for the state of NC. In order to complete the course I had to give my SSN.
I used the old favorite 999-99-9999, and it got booted out. I emailed them refusing to give the information. About 2 weeks later I got an email from them giving me a SSN for this use only. The number was 000-00-1932.
Looks like there were at least 1932 of us who refused to play that game.

If we refuse, they can work around it.

 

[T.E. Yeary]

"Have you run a criminal background check on each employee here that will have access to this form after I complete it?"


What a great question to ask!

I'm filing that one in my somewhat limited brain space and hope I have the presence of mind to use it at the right time! Thanks nono!

Tom

 

[LisaS]

This is interesting - especially to me as we don't have SSNs in the UK so even if I wanted to give them mine I couldn't? I'm sure this applies to most of the overseas DVC owners as well.

Excellent point! If DVC needs some way to confirm an owner's identity over the phone, they must be using something other than the last four digits of the SSN for owners outside the US! So they ought to be able to do that for anyone else who prefers not to provide their SSN.

I would think that if they need it for other reasons (such as to report transactions greater than $10K) then that reason would be mentioned on the form. Plus, I would think the responsibility to report that transaction would rest with the company handling the money, and that would be TCS in my case. A side note here, I always thought that the law about reporting transacations greater than $10K applied only to cash transactions, where the buyer is paying with currency, since there is no paper trail in that case and it could involve money laundering. I'm paying with a cashiers check from my bank, so I wouldn't think this law applies in my case.

 

[Muushka]

Excellent point! If DVC needs some way to confirm an owner's identity over the phone, they must be using something other than the last four digits of the SSN for owners outside the US! So they ought to be able to do that for anyone else who prefers not to provide their SSN.

We are here in NC and they do not have our SSN and they just ask our address and telephone number (and membership number) as ID.

 

[disneyberry]

[SIZE=+0]Just wanted to also chime in to say that the part on the form asking for SSN is nothing new. They were definitely asking for it 3 years ago when we joined DVC.

It shouldn't be a problem to leave it blank though. The only thing is, I know that if you live in a state where the referral incentives can be earned, and you earn above the amount where DVC is required to report it... I'm not sure how they would send a Form 1099 if there was no SSN.[/SIZE]

 

[robinb]

We paid cash for our DVC, in excess of 10K. We did not provide our SSN.
When we call to make a reservation, they don't even ask for it now (it took about 2 years of 'I do not give out that info').

Me too. I give them my address when I call. They don't need your SSN. They just want to use it as a National ID.

 

[goldilocks_63]

I didn't want to give my SS#, because I am concerned about theft. I told the TSS rep that I didn't want to give it, and she said well, disney might then exercise ROFR.

I asked her to call Disney and find out why they needed it... but she wouldn't take the time. I was busy at work, so just gave in and faxed it in on the form, but really am still not very happy about having done it....

TSS, can you please look into this for others....

GOldi

 

[Sammie]

I want to preceed this comment by saying I know nothing about the IRS, taxes, and 1099 Forms.

My thought is that maybe the monies received from renting points is going to have to be reported to the IRS for tax purposes.

And why would anyone think that rental income would not be reported to the IRS???? It is income.

 

[T.E. Yeary]

I do know every title company we've ever worked with has asked for the SS# but to be quite honest, I don't know why.

Now I feel really dumb for even opening my big mouth in an earlier post! However those were my true feelings on the subject and I will contact the owner of TCS to find out why they want us to supply that information in our paperwork to them.


Tom

 

[LisaS]

And why would anyone think that rental income would not be reported to the IRS???? It is income.

Yes, rental income is income but DVC isn't involved in collecting the rent from the renter and disbursing the funds to the owner, so I can't see how they would have any obligation to report it to the IRS and issue the owner a 1099 since the money doesn't pass through their hands. And they don't know what you charged per point so they wouldn't know what to tell the IRS. You may have received $10-$11/point or you may have donated the points as a gift to someone.

 

[goldilocks_63]

I'd like to know why they say they need it....

I was thinking maybe I could just give them the last 4 digits for verification purposes....

Goldi

 

[Doctor P]

There is absolutely no question in my mind that they now need the SSN. As former chairman of the board of a financial institution that was sanctioned by the federal examiners for not reporting transactions, including CHECKS WRITTEN FOR VEHICLE LOANS to dealers by the institution, that exceed $10000, and the type of information that I know was required on the reporting forms BEFORE the Patriot Act, it seems like this information is now a requirement. Keep in mind, also, that until the price of points rose above $70 per point, a 150 point purchase basically would not have triggered the racketeering law. In addition, since DVC makes loans (or are an agent for someone who does), they will also be bound by the Patriot Act requirements for ID'ing people.

 

[LisaS]

There is absolutely no question in my mind that they now need the SSN. As former chairman of the board of a financial institution that was sanctioned by the federal examiners for not reporting transactions, including CHECKS WRITTEN FOR VEHICLE LOANS to dealers by the institution, that exceed $10000, and the type of information that I know was required on the reporting forms BEFORE the Patriot Act, it seems like this information is now a requirement. Keep in mind, also, that until the price of points rose above $70 per point, a 150 point purchase basically would not have triggered the racketeering law. In addition, since DVC makes loans (or are an agent for someone who does), they will also be bound by the Patriot Act requirements for ID'ing people.

But I am not purchasing directly through DVC. The check is written out to Timeshare Closing Services, Inc. So wouldn't they be responsible for reporting the transaction? The only money Disney sees from this transaction is the transfer fee.

You mentioned that your financial institution was sanctioned for not reporting when they issued checks for over $10K. I did get a cashier's check from my bank but I believe they already have my SSN, and if they don't have it, I wouldn't have a problem giving it to them. Timeshare Closing Services, Inc. who is receiving the check might need to report the transaction (as the receiver of the funds), but the form states that it's DVC who wants my SSN and I can't see how they would be the ones responsible to report the sale.

 

[Doctor P]

Then it could be Patriot Act. Owning real estate is a triggering event as I recall under the Patriot Act. Or...?????

 

[bongo59]

Dr P............the 10000 dollar rule goes back alot befroe the patriot act...........it goes bank to the 20's banking laws...........for IRS purposes to stop fraud and money laundering from the IRS cofers.............it also helps deter off shore scams..............the patriot act just tightens all the loopholes that the bank and trust law left open

 

[CarolA]

Well, if you would like to take the tax deducation for the loan and/or any property taxes you will have to give them you SS#. The IRS wants a TRAIL and the IRS uses your SS# as the trail. In other words, should you be audited the IRS can call Disney and say... does Jane Doe ss# 123-33-2222 own DVC and was her property tax share XXX. If the IRS can't do it, your deduction will be disallowed. (And if they find ONE thing to disallow, it makes them more interested!)

Disney is also getting the $10,000 check... once again we are back to the trail concept. It has to be reported, first by your closing office and then by Disney who will indicate that it came from the closing company on behalf of Jane Doe.....


Also as several folks have noted... protecting your SS# alone really does not protect you. The bigger risk comes from someone accessing your CC and changing the address.... and off they go!

 

[rocketriter]

Has anyone called MS lately and asked 1) the current policy and 2) the reason for it?

 

[T.E. Yeary]

Sonja Merritt was kind enough to E-Mail this letter to me to share with everyone concerning the SS# situation we have been discussing!

Please address questions regarding why TCS needs buyers/sellers social security numbers as follows: (TCS, this applies to all properties, Disney as well as other properties)

We are all keenly aware of the need for concerns for identity theft. In this electronic age, we have to be vigilant about protecting ourselves. TCS requests social security numbers for two reasons only.

1. The IRS requires that we report all real estate transactions to them. Most timeshare qualifies as real estate. We provide the seller with a 1099-S regarding the proceeds of the sale and we also send the IRS records of the transactions.

2. Most resorts (and Disney is one of them) require buyer's social security number as well. While the resort may have a number of reasons why they want it, I can tell you that a big one has to do with reporting any rental income to the IRS should they be asked to rent on the owners behalf.

TCS wants to provide the resort with every possible amount of required information to facilitate the transfer of records in their system so that a new owner can be registered without delay.

Through experience, we have learned that a clerk at a resort will hold up a transfer over the most trivial items. So we take a very proactive approach to get them everything they need. That being said, there exist NO federal laws requiring release of your social security number for these matters.

Just keep in mind that it may create conflicting information with the IRS and it could delay the resort in allowing you access to your account.

TCS regards all of the information we collect as highly confidential. However, we kindly ask anyone who feels that the risk is too great to bear, to simply write on the document requesting the info "unwilling to disclose."

If anyone has questions, feel free to direct them to Nancy or Karen.

We at TCS really appreciate your business and try to provide the very best service possible. If you have any suggestions you feel will be helpful in the closing process, please pass them along to us. We are so grateful for the many kind remarks that Tom has passed along to us as well as the comments that are not so complimentary. That is how we learn to improve our service. The DISboard members have been so generous in passing along their ideas. The communication helps us to make improvements for all of the future DVC purchasers and sellers. So, keep your comments coming and we will try to incorporate your suggestions to the best of our ability.

Thanks for your patience and understanding,

Sonja Merritt
Timeshare Closing Services, Inc./Owner
www.timeshareclosingservices.com
________________________________________________________________
I really appreciate Sonja Merritt responding so quickly to answer my request about the SS# situation. When I spoke to her she shared the very same reservations about giving out the key to the "vault". I suppose there are some government mandated issues(IRS 1099S) that we will not be able to change, but perhaps some of the others, we could address. If Disney wants our SS# to make sure we are the owner when calling, the answer might be to simply put the last 4 digits of our # for identification. That way everyone can feel a little bit safer.

Sincerely,
Tom

 

[LisaS]

Well, if you would like to take the tax deducation for the loan and/or any property taxes you will have to give them you SS#.

I agree that people who purchase directly from DVC and finance part of their purchase should expect to provide their SSN. I'm buying through a reseller and paying cash, though. The property tax issue is an interesting one I hadn't considered. I do plan to deduct the property taxes. I wonder if DVC provides the IRS with a list of the property taxes paid by each owner every year. If they do that, then that is a valid reason for asking me to provide them with my SSN, and I don't have a problem with that.

Disney is also getting the $10,000 check... once again we are back to the trail concept. It has to be reported, first by your closing office and then by Disney who will indicate that it came from the closing company on behalf of Jane Doe.....

This has me confused. Why would Disney be getting the check? I send the check to the closing company who holds the funds in an escrow account until after the closing. The closing company sends a check to the seller (minus the sales commission and any outstanding mortgage balance owed to Disney) once closing is completed. If the seller had purchased directly from DVC with financing and has an outstanding balance on their mortgage, then DVC would receive a check from the closing company to pay off the mortgage from the proceeds of the sale. But that's the only case I can think of where Disney would be getting a check, but it would be from the closing company.

Also as several folks have noted... protecting your SS# alone really does not protect you. The bigger risk comes from someone accessing your CC and changing the address.... and off they go!

If they get hold of your SSN they can apply for lots of new credit cards, and have them sent to whatever address they choose, a box office box for instance. You won't even know that it has happened until creditors start to call months later. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I saw a program just recently about identity theft where a woman had her SSN stolen by a co-worker who applied for 20 credit cards and went on quite a spending spree before she was caught.

 

[LisaS]

Tom -
Thanks very much for contacting Sonja and reporting back on why TCS asks for the SSN. It's interesting that she says:

Through experience, we have learned that a clerk at a resort will hold up a transfer over the most trivial items. So we take a very proactive approach to get them everything they need. That being said, there exist NO federal laws requiring release of your social security number for these matters.

I sent my signed closing docs via Fed Ex earlier today and I opted not to provide my and my DH's SSNs on the "new owner set up" form. I hope that does not cause DVC to hold up the transfer. My phone number is listed on the form, so hopefully DVC will contact me (or TCS) rather than just hold things up.

If Disney wants our SS# to make sure we are the owner when calling, the answer might be to simply put the last 4 digits of our # for identification. That way everyone can feel a little bit safer.

For that matter, just let me specify a 4-digit PIN of my own choosing. That would be even safer because it doesn't disclose part of my SSN and it's a number that only I would know. Even those who happen to have access to my SSN wouldn't know my DVC PIN number!