new blog: DOJ: WDW Must Permit Segways in Theme Parks

[LeahZ]

http://www.disunplugged.com/2011/02/06/doj-wdw-must-permit-segways-in-theme-parks/

 

[dclfun]

What a shame. I can only imagine the first time someone with a Segway ( using a "credible" verbal assurance that they are disabled and know how to use one) runs into a child in the exit crowds leaving the parks. Just like the airlines allow fake service dogs due to "credible verbal assurances" by people who feel entitled to bring Fifi on the plane and avoid fees. What a mess. ---Kathy

 

[LockShockBarrel]

Here we go

I'll be very interested to see how this progresses. I guess my immediate question is are they going to be required to make them available to rent or will it be if someone already has one? And then should we hope/assume that if someone owns one, they'll know how to use it?

 

[Cheshire Figment]

I have read the Federal Register discussing the revised ADA Regulations effective March 15, 2011. There are six full pages discussing Segways. The upshot is, unlike a wheelchair or ECV designed primarily for use by people with disabilities which must be allowed, the Segway is considered "An other mobility device" which may be allowed. And where a company cannot ask for proof of a disability for a wheelchair or ECV, a company may require proof of disability as well as set other restrictions.

And reading the blog all the way through, this does not actually require allowing Segways at this time.

 

[cmwade77]

Honestly, I would think Segways would be safer than ECVs (for those that they would work for), they have a smaller foot print, are more maneuverable and generally the people riding them would be better at using them than ECVs, because they wouldn't be rented, they would be used by experienced riders. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against ECVs, but I am just saying that I don't see the safety issues. CMs (Disneyland Resort) use Segways even when the parks are extremely crowded and their walkways are a lot smaller than WDW and there hasn't been an accident yet. I do think they should have to pass a safety course (but I also think that those using ECVs and Wheelchairs should too). This could be done once and a card issued for AP holders, so that they wouldn't have to do so every time they come into the park.

 

[SueM in MN]

Honestly, I would think Segways would be safer than ECVs (for those that they would work for), they have a smaller foot print, are more maneuverable and generally the people riding them would be better at using them than ECVs, because they wouldn't be rented, they would be used by experienced riders. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against ECVs, but I am just saying that I don't see the safety issues. CMs (Disneyland Resort) use Segways even when the parks are extremely crowded and their walkways are a lot smaller than WDW and there hasn't been an accident yet. I do think they should have to pass a safety course (but I also think that those using ECVs and Wheelchairs should too). This could be done once and a card issued for AP holders, so that they wouldn't have to do so every time they come into the park.

They are more maneuverable and have a small footprint than a wheelchair or ECV or wheelchair, but those when standing still have at least 3 wheels so they are self supporting. Segways have only 2 wheels, so are not self supporting. They can also go faste than ECVs or walkers.

They also wouldn't necessarily be ones owned by the rider. Once they are allowed in, Disney would have to let anyone bring one in as long as the person says it is for a disability. I have no doubt that companies would spring up to rent them to anyone who wants one.

 

[Mrs.Malone]

Honestly, I would think Segways would be safer than ECVs (for those that they would work for), they have a smaller foot print, are more maneuverable and generally the people riding them would be better at using them than ECVs, because they wouldn't be rented, they would be used by experienced riders. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against ECVs, but I am just saying that I don't see the safety issues. CMs (Disneyland Resort) use Segways even when the parks are extremely crowded and their walkways are a lot smaller than WDW and there hasn't been an accident yet. I do think they should have to pass a safety course (but I also think that those using ECVs and Wheelchairs should too). This could be done once and a card issued for AP holders, so that they wouldn't have to do so every time they come into the park.

This is the first I've heard of the Segway issue.
I was thinking the same thing (that the Segways might be more safely operated in general because would all be owned rather than rented)--but am I missing something? Would the offsite rental companies not see this as a huge potential moneymaker and start renting Segways to anyone who asks?

One day, my three-year-old, standing just a couple of feet away from me in a very uncrowded area, was slammed facedown to the ground by an ECV that came around a corner way too fast. Luckily he was not hurt (though very, very frightened), but that moment has stayed with me and I am really wary of the possibility of even MORE of these types of vehicles being operated by inexperienced "drivers" in the parks.

Editing: Sue and I posted at the same time. I guess it does seem that the rental companies would indeed be eager to offer Segways.

 

[Cheshire Figment]

Originally Posted by cmwade77
Honestly, I would think Segways would be safer than ECVs (for those that they would work for), they have a smaller foot print, are more maneuverable and generally the people riding them would be better at using them than ECVs, because they wouldn't be rented, they would be used by experienced riders. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against ECVs, but I am just saying that I don't see the safety issues. CMs (Disneyland Resort) use Segways even when the parks are extremely crowded and their walkways are a lot smaller than WDW and there hasn't been an accident yet. I do think they should have to pass a safety course (but I also think that those using ECVs and Wheelchairs should too). This could be done once and a card issued for AP holders, so that they wouldn't have to do so every time they come into the park.

There are a few difficulties with your concept.

Those of us who have our own ECVs know how to handle them. The great majority of people using ECVs at WDW are using rentals and do not normally use them.

I work at WDW, as well as visit on days off. When I am driving my ECV I am paying close attention to the pedestrians near and ahead of me. I am not looking at the buildings and/or landscaping, or other things. Unfortunately most people driving an ECV at WDW are looking at what entertains them and not where they are driving.

Third, in an ECV I am at a low level and can see and avoid children. Someone in a Segway is not only standing, but is on a platform more than six inches above the ground. Couple this with an unfamiliarity with the Park and this is a potential recipe for disaster.

And last, there used to be a company in the WDW area (and still has branches in other cities) which would advertise to "use an ECV in the Parks all day and then dance all night". This was aimed for non-disabled people to use an ECV to save their energy for at night. I can just see that for Segways; the thought scares me.

And, as I mentioned earlier, this is not effective immediately, and the new Guidelines published by DoJ will allow a company to require proof of disability prior to letting someone use a Segway on their private property. And the primary recommended proof of disability, as published in the Federal Register, is a state-issued disabled parking placard issued to the individual.

 

[cmwade77]

I still maintain that they would be safe, but like I said, make the all (and ECV/wheelchair drivers) take a safety test before entering the parks for the first time (and at least once every 6 months thereafter). Believe me, I have been on both ends of having people in my party needing an ECV/Wheelchair and having ECVs/Wheelchairs hitting me, even when I am moving out of their way or when they are coming up behind me where I couldn't possibly see them. This is why I say there needs to be a safety test. Other guests need to do a better job of watching out for wheelchairs and ECVs. Honestly, I have seen many people that own Segways and they are very courteous, especially those that need to use them for various reasons and not jut for recreation. I honestly think this is one of those being afraid of change things and that needs to be put to a stop.

 

[cm8]

There are a few difficulties with your concept.

Those of us who have our own ECVs know how to handle them. The great majority of people using ECVs at WDW are using rentals and do not normally use them.

I work at WDW, as well as visit on days off. When I am driving my ECV I am paying close attention to the pedestrians near and ahead of me. I am not looking at the buildings and/or landscaping, or other things. Unfortunately most people driving an ECV at WDW are looking at what entertains them and not where they are driving.

Third, in an ECV I am at a low level and can see and avoid children. Someone in a Segway is not only standing, but is on a platform more than six inches above the ground. Couple this with an unfamiliarity with the Park and this is a potential recipe for disaster.

And last, there used to be a company in the WDW area (and still has branches in other cities) which would advertise to "use an ECV in the Parks all day and then dance all night". This was aimed for non-disabled people to use an ECV to save their energy for at night. I can just see that for Segways; the thought scares me.

And, as I mentioned earlier, this is not effective immediately, and the new Guidelines published by DoJ will allow a company to require proof of disability prior to letting someone use a Segway on their private property. And the primary recommended proof of disability, as published in the Federal Register, is a state-issued disabled parking placard issued to the individual.

That sounds like a great plan, but would the person be required to bring in the Placard in order to rent one( if you park in handicapped parking your placard or tag must be displayed) I supposed they could just use their ID card issued with the placard ( at least then new ones here in SC comes with a card for your wallet that shows your info and what type of placard you have been issued).

Does anyone know if WDW would be mandated to make room for Segways on the buses if they are the vehicle of choice for the guest using them?

 

[bookwormde]

An excellent ruling by the judge since the class action was way to broad.

Now there can be a substantive framework created as to where and by whom they can be safely used.

There will be rulings or agreements as to where and under what conditions they must be allowed. In the mean time the questions related to the disability are limited to those that impact the safety, ability to operate and determination of equivelency. My understanding is that Disney will still not be able to require proof of a disability since they an not providing an additional financial benefit to the individual.

Safety is paramount, so my guess is that some type of speed limitation (full gate walking pace) will be the primary restiction (hopefully done elctronically). My guess is that Segway may well reconsider getting formal mobilility device certifications with the broader definition of a disability under ADA 2009.

bookwormde

 

[SueM in MN]

That sounds like a great plan, but would the person be required to bring in the Placard in order to rent one( if you park in handicapped parking your placard or tag must be displayed) I supposed they could just use their ID card issued with the placard ( at least then new ones here in SC comes with a card for your wallet that shows your info and what type of placard you have been issued).

Does anyone know if WDW would be mandated to make room for Segways on the buses if they are the vehicle of choice for the guest using them?

I did not read the entire Federsl Register this time, but did read it previously and read the blog. My understanding is that the proof of disability can include verbal assurances (i.e. The person could be asked "are you disabled. Are you using the Segway because of your disability?").
If the answer is "yes", that is the credible verbal assurance. That is the way it is with dogs and we have just been debating how messy that situation is.

As far as Handicapped Parking permits, I don't know about all states, but Minnesota does not also give a wallet card along with the placard, so if needed to use a permit to show our DD was disabled, we would need to bring our placard with us and not park in the handicapped parking.

And, yes, that would include buses and all the other means of transportation.

Honestly, I would think Segways would be safer than ECVs (for those that they would work for), they have a smaller foot print, are more maneuverable and generally the people riding them would be better at using them than ECVs, because they wouldn't be rented, they would be used by experienced riders. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against ECVs, but I am just saying that I don't see the safety issues. CMs (Disneyland Resort) use Segways even when the parks are extremely crowded and their walkways are a lot smaller than WDW and there hasn't been an accident yet. I do think they should have to pass a safety course (but I also think that those using ECVs and Wheelchairs should too). This could be done once and a card issued for AP holders, so that they wouldn't have to do so every time they come into the park.

I agree that there should be more instruction for guests using ECVs. When my FIL rented one in the parks, the rental CM did do a quick rundown of rules and operation.
Only one of the offside companies does this with ECVs that I am aware of - Randy's requires a personal delivery so their staff can go thru those things in person with the renter. The majority of offside rental ECVs ate just left at Bell Services or the front desk for the guest to pick up.
If we had $1 for every guest that my DH had showed the speed control on rental ECVs, we would not be rich, but could buy lunch. That's pretty basic, just to know it exists and that "the turtle is your friend".

People have mentioned many times "the CMs ride Segways" as proof of safety for guests to use them, but there are several important differences that Cheshire Figment brought up:
1) The CMs using them are all familiar with the parks, so they are not on the Segways sightseeing in an unfamiliar location.
2) The CMs using them have gone thru training and passes proficiency before going out in the parks.
3) The CMs are riding them in open spaces, not in lines or buildings.
3) The CMs are staying on them, not repeatedly mounting and dismounting.

The open space part is important. If Segways are allowed in any areas open to pedestrians, that means anywhere. In all buildings, in restaurants and shops. In lines and attractions. I know there are some lines that are wheelchair accessible, but not ECV accessible. I think the argument will be made that since a Segway has a smaller footprint and is more manouverable than an ECV, Segways should be allowed where ever wheelchairs are.
I can personally see it might work out well for people using Segways in shopping malls, zoos and museums because, in general, there are well established traffic patterns ( most people operate in shopping mall walkways like they do on roads) and also the activity is moving from place to place to see the zoo animals, store windows, etc not getting on and off rides like at WDW.
Doorways into shops are mostly wide and tall, so no stooping would be required to clear the doorway. This would not be the case in all places at WDW, where things are themed to look like old buildings or more 'human scaled'. I've been shopping at Mall of America during very busy Christmas season, and even then, someone using a Segway could probably operate safely at Mall of American because of the traffic flow and space - I, at least, have never seen a 'can't reach your arm out away from your body' crowds at the malls like are commonly encountered at Disney parks ( and not necessarily even at busy times).

The last point is mounting and dismounting. When this subject first came up several years ago, there were quite a few videos on YouTube showing people with disabilities mounting and dismounting Segways. Many involved devices like a bar on the wall or another person to hold the Segway steady while the user mounted it. Interestingly, I can only find a few videos on youtube now and most involve a seat placed on the Segway so the user can sit. (This brings up another point, since the Segways with sears operate by placing something on the standing platform, which falsely tells the Segway that someone is standing with both feet on the Segway. This sensor is a safety device, which normally shuts down the Segway if the user does not have 2 feet on the platform, so the seats allow one of the safety devices built into the Segway to be circumvented.
In the event of an emergency shutdown, users need to be able to safely get off the Segway and have 10 seconds to do it, according to the Segway manual and the Segway tour classes I've taken. For people who are using other things (another person, a wall, a bar) to get off their Segway, how would that be available and where, just moving around, but also for attractions where a transfer to a ride seat is needed?
Even if a person can get off completely unaided, the Segways still need to be stored while the person is one the ride ( space is already a consideration at most attractions) and it has to be where it can't be knocked over ( unlike wheelchairs and ECVs which are on more than 2 wheels.

As I mentioned, I can see that there are certain places where a Segway might be safe to use, I just don't agree that a theme park is one of them. And it basically has much more to do with the device itself, rather than how they are used. Having been on the Epcot Segway tour 3 times, I can certainly understand the feeling of freedom that gliding along can give. The freedom just needs to be used with common sense.

 

[Bete]

and let me tell you it's not easy. Why do you think on Disney's Segway tour that they have a learning session with it? Why do you think they do the tour early in the morning (no crowds)? Try this yourself at Innoventions and you will understand.

Also, let me tell you I played varsity volleyball and softball; so, I feel I'm coordinated enough to handle a segway. Anyway, I find this difficult. I'm not experienced at it, but I tried twice at Epcot Innovention and it did not get that much better the second time for me. I'm on the shorter side and I think that does hinder me with it. Believe me they do go faster than an ECV and you have to learn how to balance yourself on one. Also, I think they are harder to stop than an ECV. I will say I'd be more understanding with a four wheel version segway with front and back wheels.

I think there's too much opportunity to wreck a Segway using one and hurt someone else even moreso than an ECV if anyone gets into renting them. You have to learn how to balance yourself on one. It takes more concentration in my opinion in a park enviroment than driving a car on the road. It's not that easy to go straight with one. The slighest bump or debris can send you off some in a slightly different direction. Unless, they have some kind of certificate of knowledge for one (like a license) this is an open door to law suits. Even with a license, they will have to mocify the speed for park use. The horriffic side to this is a child hitting the concrete and getting brain damage from a Segway user. The impact would be much worse with a Segway. I could see the weight of a Segway user on top of a child with the Segway, as well. You could crush a child. I don't think there's been any episodes with someone driving over a child with an ECV at Disney.

Can you imagine how it will be to take a Segway on and off Disney transportation? How far they will go with this is anyone's guess. The old saying is you give an inch than you want a mile.

This has actually convinced me to take a trip to WDW sooner than later. I don't want to be there when this starts if it gets that far with the Disney Parks.

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

Honestly, I would think Segways would be safer than ECVs (for those that they would work for), they have a smaller foot print, are more maneuverable and generally the people riding them would be better at using them than ECVs, because they wouldn't be rented, they would be used by experienced riders. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against ECVs, but I am just saying that I don't see the safety issues. CMs (Disneyland Resort) use Segways even when the parks are extremely crowded and their walkways are a lot smaller than WDW and there hasn't been an accident yet.

Ehm................. there has not been "an accident yet" accordingly to Disney, apparently. I can tell you there have been accidents. I've seen them happen and actually myself have been run into by a CM driving a Segway that apparently "uses them very regularly on the tours". That CM must have been legally blind to run into me at full speed at a rather empty World Showcase and with me standing still as I already noticed the CM being rather.....incapable of safely driving said Segway and me thinking it would be safest for me to be a standing still object to avoid getting hit. Boy, I'ld better have run for my life! Literally. I still am boggled to think how he was able to hit me full on in such an empty space and with me being very noticable in a large and high up powerchair. Let alone the look I had when noticing he made a "last minute" turn to go right into me as if he was a dart being thrown to the bulls eye.

I'm not getting myself any further involved in the discussion as what should or should not be allowed, but had to speak up when reading the bogus "no accidents have happened" quote in the blog, let alone when it gets repeated on here.

 

[rhettreaux]

I'm not sure "faster" is a drawback. Waiting on a disney bus for two ECVs to park and get locked down seems to take forever. I think getting a segway on and off would be easier.

 

[bidnow5]

I was hit by a CM in Epcot I wasn't hurt bad but had a bruised arm. My wife and I always go to the countries when they open in the morning in Epcot and I can tell you they do have accidents we witnessed several over the years as they are ending the tour none got hurt bad but they do crash

 

[SueM in MN]

I was hit by a CM in Epcot I wasn't hurt bad but had a bruised arm. My wife and I always go to the countries when they open in the morning in Epcot and I can tell you they do have accidents we witnessed several over the years as they are ending the tour none got hurt bad but they do crash

I have been in the Epcot Segway tour and each time there has been at least one accident, where someone runs into someone and one where someone falls off. Most have been minor things with skinned knee or scraped hand, but these were in the outside portion of the tour after an hour of inside instruction.
On each of the tours, there has also been at least one person who lost control and sped up either going ip or down a hill ( if you lean too far forward or back, the Segway will speed up and you will go faster than intended).
Before going out of the indoor education room on each tour, we were also instructed that we must keep both hands on the steering column at all times, no pictures unless we were stopped at a designated picture spot and no 'showboating'. We were told there would be CMs along on the tour just to monitor, one warning and if it happened again, the offender would be told to get off the Segway and their tour would be over.
Despite this, on each tour, there was at least one person who got a warning and on the last tour, one guy was repeatedly doing all the forbidden stuff ( including driving with no hands while he took pictures of his girlfriend riding next to him). He nearly plowed into other guestson the tour several times, other tour participants were complaining about him and basically all the CMs did was kept warning him ( they said they would monitor him better, but didn't want to kick him out because other members of his group were not problems).
Despite this

 

[Bete]

would be agreeable to me, but not the standard one. It would have to have 4 wheels, two in front and two in back. There would need to be a base that's like a platform; the blog shows one that looks ok.

Until you ride one you just don't know how tricky a segway can be.

 

[KPeveler]

I still maintain that they would be safe, but like I said, make the all (and ECV/wheelchair drivers) take a safety test before entering the parks for the first time (and at least once every 6 months thereafter).

No.

Sorry, but that is the answer. No.

I flatly refuse to prove that I know how to use my wheelchair. I use it all day, every day. Would my wife also have to be "certifed" to push me? Would my sister? How would I schedule it? Would I have to pay for park admission? Who would judge? Because the CMs I encounter have NO IDEA what my chair is. In fact, most think it is an iBOT wheelchair (it is not, it is a Quantum Q600).

I will not prove that I know how to use my wheelchair, and unless I actually cause problems, I dont think they can make me.

I will be happy to prove I am "safe" so long as every guest entering the park passes a similar safety course. And I mean everyone - walking, running, wheelchair, scooter, etc.

But I have the right to use my wheelchair without having to prove my disability, and I am pretty certain no one can make me pass a class to be able to use it in a setting open to the public.

 

[Cheshire Figment]

I still maintain that they would be safe, but like I said, make the all (and ECV/wheelchair drivers) take a safety test before entering the parks for the first time (and at least once every 6 months thereafter).

The updated ADA Regulations, which go into effect March 15, 2011s, make a distinction between "wheelchair" and "other mobility device".

A "wheelchair" can include any wheelchair or power chair or ECV which is primarily manufactured for people with mobility/stamina related disabilities. The regulations require that these be allowed, basically without any restrictions and without questioning a person's need for it.

An "other mobility device". which the Segway is specifically designed as, can be restricted in use by any venue and also the venue can require proof of disability.

And, as I mentioned in an earlier post, there is a major difference between a person who uses an ECV regularly and a renter. And also there is a major difference between a Park Regular (such as me) and someone who is not used to the Parks.