new blog: DOJ: WDW Must Permit Segways in Theme Parks

In my personal opinion.....Anyone who carrys a copy of a law in their pocket is just looking for someone to sue or media attention.

Again, that is just my personal opinion.
 
In my personal opinion.....Anyone who carrys a copy of a law in their pocket is just looking for someone to sue or media attention.

Again, that is just my personal opinion.

Does this include me carrying a copy of the constitution in an iPhone app?:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
 
Does this include me carrying a copy of the constitution in an iPhone app?:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:I refuse to answer without an attorney present.:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Seriously though, just to clarify....I meant something like the ADA.

Jack....I love ya, Man
 
I beg of you....

Spend a crowded day in any Disney park riding an ECV and tell me you feel that those riding a Segway or those walking in front of a Segway will be safe.

People who can stand, but not walk, already have options. Wheelchairs and ECVs stop and allow guests to stand at will.

This will all change when people riding Segways are injured because of idiots that jump in front of them or when the idiots that jump in front of ECVs and Segways are injured.

In my personal opinion....that second part is just thinning the herd.

Very well said, Kevin!!! :thumbsup2

The Pro Segway people tout the fact that there has never been an accident in a theme park caused by a disabled person using a Segway. That is true. HOWEVER, the reason for that statistic is that the the general public has not been allowed in the theme parks.

It will only take one accident! WHEN that accident does happen, people will alert the media.

How many people who can stand, but not walk have the reflexes to stop the Segway when a child steps in front of them?

As Kevin mentioned, people often step in front of wheelchairs and ECV's. An example of this can be seen in Part 1 of Bob Varley's video of the Magic Kingdom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON9WiXCoGE0

Notice the little girl in the white at the 1:29 mark of the video

Page 83 of the Segway manual states:

Always perform a controlled stop. Avoid abrupt stops.
Come to a controlled stop by gently shifting your weight
away from the direction of movement.

Page 107 also states:

When riding with other Segway PT riders, maintain a safe
distance, identify hazards and obstacles, and do not ride side-byside
unless there is plenty of room left for pedestrians.

Is it possible to leave "plenty of room left for pedestrians" on a crowded Main Street USA or the like?

http://www.segway.com/downloads/pdfs/Getting_Started_Manual.pdf

Also, since the ADA does not allow business to require proof of disability, anyone could bring a Segway in. I continue to question the NEED for a Segway, but need is now a moot point. Anyone can say "Hey Man....I'm disabled." This just increases the problem!

Now that devices must be allowed, "whether or not they are designed primarily for use by individuals with mobility disabilities for the purpose of locomotion," why do wheelchairs and the like need to go through trials to be classified as Mobility Devices. I mean now that anyone can use an off-the-shelf device.....why do we have the approval process??????????? I personally feel that the approval process should be an all or nothing deal. Require approval for all mobility devices or none at all. With the new regulations in place, do we need an approval process? Why are off-the-shelf devices even considered?

Another argument for Segways has been that people cannot sit for a long period of time. Will Segways be parked outside of "Ellen's Energy Adventure?" Ellen requires guests to sit for 43 minutes. An ECV user is able to go from attraction to attraction in less than 43 minutes. What do Segway users do if an attraction says "Please remain seated at all times." If a Segway user is able to experience such an attraction, why cant they use an ECV? Nobody is "glued" to an ECV. People can get off the ECV and stretch/rest when needed.

I certainly do understand why people PREFER to use a Segway, but I still have not been able to understand the NEED for a Segway when ECV's and wheelchairs are available.

Personally, I do not like the new ADA regulations. Whether we agree or disagree with the new regulations and policies...what's done is done. We just have to wait and see what WILL happen. The only question that remains in the Segway Saga is the one that I've had since the day I wrote the first letter to Pete:

WHY??????
 

For those who may be interested, the Federal Register of September 15, 2010 published these rules. Here are the links to the particular sections.

Justice Department ,
56236–56358 [2010–21824] {TEXT} {PDF}
56164–56236 [2010–21821] {TEXT} {PDF}

Note that this is almost 200 pages long. Pages 56164-56236 deal with all levels of governmental agencies while pages 56236-56358 deal with the private sector and non-profit organizations.
 
So does anyone know of any attempts to use a Segway in the parks on or after 3/15/2011. I figured the pro Segway crowd would be lined up at the turnstiles and then promptly sue but no lawsuit has been filed that I have seen.

Under the new Federal Regulations Disney is protected from any lawsuit. If you read the section on Segways (which starts on Page 56259) you will see that a Seqway is consider an "other mobility device" and not a "wheelchair". And the rules specifically allow any organization to set specific standards for allowing the use of an "other mobility device" on its property.

In the Disney Notice I quoted in Post #18 they also had some FAQs. There are two of them which pertain to this question:

4. According to the new Department of Justice Rule, effective March 15, two-wheeled vehicles, like Segways, must be allowed at the Walt Disney World Resort. Why aren't you permitting us to use them?
WDPR policy does not allow guests to operate Segways on our property for safety reasons. We have performed a safety analysis considering the factors set forth in the Department of Justice rule and determined that unrestricted Segway use is not safe within our environment, enabling our existing policy to remain in effect.

5. Isn't Disney breaking the law?
We have performed a safety analysis considering the factors set forth in the Department of Justice rule and determined that unrestricted Segway use is not safe within our environment, enabling our existing policy to remain in effect.

So if anyone were to sue Disney the burden would be on the plaintiff to have Disney's safety analysis examined and prove that the analysis is flawed.
 
So if anyone were to sue Disney the burden would be on the plaintiff to have Disney's safety analysis examined and prove that the analysis is flawed.

It seems that the pro Segway folks have a different take on things. In post #20, I posted a link to a letter on the DRAFT website. Part of that letter states:

On a positive note, our position is far far stronger than it has ever been in the past. The new category concerning the Segway in theory should put to rest many of the excuses used to deny accessibility in the past.

But there will still be those that try to use the same old arguments and insist that the burden of proof of safety lies directly on us when in fact it now lies directly on them.

http://www.draft.org/DRAFTForums/tab...c/Default.aspx
 
Does this include me carrying a copy of the constitution in an iPhone app?:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Me too. :) I also found a free version of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, Federal Rules of Evidence and Federal Rules of Appellate Procedure for my Droid. Most useful the have around when since the books weigh too much.
 
Me too. :) I also found a free version of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, Federal Rules of Evidence and Federal Rules of Appellate Procedure for my Droid. Most useful the have around when since the books weigh too much.

Well, I wasn't going to go so far as to admit to this. ;)
 
Me too. :) I also found a free version of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, Federal Rules of Evidence and Federal Rules of Appellate Procedure for my Droid. Most useful the have around when since the books weigh too much.

Well, I wasn't going to go so far as to admit to this. ;)

These are perfectly understandable.

In the earlier post, I was refering to something I had read. :)
 
Skip and I are in the uncomfortable position of, for once, siding with DRAFT. Let me be clear, it is insanity to think a Segway can be safely used in a crowded theme park. (I'm more intrigued by the situation where an individual with a disability shows up on a day when the park is "deserted.")

But, like Skip, I can't entirely agree with the statement that "the burden would be on the plaintiff to have Disney's safety analysis examined and prove that the analysis is flawed." My views don't count and I could care less about DRAFT's views. But in this instance they do reflect the position taken by the Justice Department both in the regulations (DOJ cites pages 56,255 and 56,298) and in the brief it filed with the court in late January (a copy of which i will send to anyone who PM's me). But burden placement only matters when the evidence is evenly divided and arguing over who has it when the evidence is not equal is a distraction.

The more interesting points are how does a court review a decision that permitting a segway in a theme park is not safe. Does it really further the interests protected by the ADA to allow a court to freely second guess whether WDW has accurately evaluated the safety issue? Some courts have said no in a similar context, explaining that a court should limit its role to ascertaining whether the party "reasonably considered and relied upon sufficient evidence specific to the individual and the potential injury." This is not without teeth, as Chattanooga found several years ago when its physician decided someone who was HIV positive was automatically unqualified to be a police officer.

And there is, in the DOJ's mind, a serious question whether WDW has adequately "performed a safety analysis considering the factors set forth in the Department of Justice rule." The DOJ minced no words in their brief, calling WDW's safety concerns “bland and unsupported.” (Of course, I'm sure they would not have said this if WDW had called Skip and Kevin as witnesses.)

But sadly, I wasn't at the hearing and can only go by what was said in the briefs (which I have previously said are not that helpful).

The only sure thing, I guess, is that the fat lady hasn't even started getting warmed up on this issue.
 
Skip and I are in the uncomfortable position of, for once, siding with DRAFT. Let me be clear, it is insanity to think a Segway can be safely used in a crowded theme park. (I'm more intrigued by the situation where an individual with a disability shows up on a day when the park is "deserted.")

But, like Skip, I can't entirely agree with the statement that "the burden would be on the plaintiff to have Disney's safety analysis examined and prove that the analysis is flawed." My views don't count and I could care less about DRAFT's views. But in this instance they do reflect the position taken by the Justice Department both in the regulations (DOJ cites pages 56,255 and 56,298) and in the brief it filed with the court in late January (a copy of which i will send to anyone who PM's me). But burden placement only matters when the evidence is evenly divided and arguing over who has it when the evidence is not equal is a distraction.

The more interesting points are how does a court review a decision that permitting a segway in a theme park is not safe. Does it really further the interests protected by the ADA to allow a court to freely second guess whether WDW has accurately evaluated the safety issue? Some courts have said no in a similar context, explaining that a court should limit its role to ascertaining whether the party "reasonably considered and relied upon sufficient evidence specific to the individual and the potential injury." This is not without teeth, as Chattanooga found several years ago when its physician decided someone who was HIV positive was automatically unqualified to be a police officer.

And there is, in the DOJ's mind, a serious question whether WDW has adequately "performed a safety analysis considering the factors set forth in the Department of Justice rule." The DOJ minced no words in their brief, calling WDW's safety concerns “bland and unsupported.” (Of course, I'm sure they would not have said this if WDW had called Skip and Kevin as witnesses.)

But sadly, I wasn't at the hearing and can only go by what was said in the briefs (which I have previously said are not that helpful).

The only sure thing, I guess, is that the fat lady hasn't even started getting warmed up on this issue.

I do not like what DRAFT is doing. Nor do I like the new regulations. Rules are rules until an accident does happen. It is just a matter of time.

With that said, I do not want anyone to lump me in the DRAFT people. I see all this as a very bad thing! This whole Segway mess is just plain wrong. I just posted the link to DRAFT's letter in the interest of fairness. I do not agree with their agenda at all. If the rules favor them, I can just shake my head.

I love Disney with all my heart. My life is what it is today because of the care and effort the Disney puts into accomodating a wide variety of disabilities. I have friends and a purpose. Things would be very different if Disney did not do as much as they do for disabled guests. Today, I am in school in Florida. Also, Orlando is home to some very special people in my life. :love: That is all made possible because Disney cares about disabled guests.

Disney cares more about disabled guests more than any other company or government entity!!!!! I trust Disney's access more than any other!!!!!!!!
 
Yeah, being perceived as agreeing with anything DRAFT says about Segways leaves a pretty bad taste for me, too.

As to the regulations, agencies don't realize that imposing unreasonably stringent requirements (such as the Segway rule) tends to have the effect of decreasing voluntary efforts to help individuals with a disability. Oranizations only have a finite amount of resources and having to focus on the "extremes" limits how they can be pro-active on other areas. It may not necessarily affect WDW but it will a smaller organization.
 
I love Disney with all my heart. My life is what it is today because of the care and effort the Disney puts into accomodating a wide variety of disabilities.

Disney cares more about disabled guests more than any other company or government entity!!!!! I trust Disney's access more than any other!!!!!!!!

:thumbsup2:thumbsup2:thumbsup2
 
I think they should give anyone involved in making this decision a Segway, give them proper training and practice and then put them out in the Magic Kingdom during spring break.
 
I think they should give anyone involved in making this decision a Segway, give them proper training and practice and then put them out in the Magic Kingdom during spring break.

The general Segway public may or may not have trainibng and practice. Anyone can just go buy one. No training required.

I like this idea, but they will need people with different skill sets and abilities to make it an accurate test.
 
As an aside, I have a somewhat interesting question which I wonder if some of the people FOR allowing Segways in a crowded Disney park have considered.


If a Segway exec... who you would assume has had a lot of experience and training in riding Segway devices, can go riding in an environment by himself (which in theory he can control, see all potential obstacles, an act accordingly), and get himself killed...


Can you really expect anybody to ride safely in an environment like a crowded theme park where you can have people coming at you from all angles, or even accidentally bumping into you (and causing a weight shift) while trying to squeeze thru the crowds?



And before someone makes the "SUV" comment about being put in a position which allows you to see over a larger part of the crowd, and thereby seeing potential hazards easier than someone on ground level, Let me put this out there for you.

i'm 6'6" tall.... so I'm close to, if not a similar height as many "average" height people on a Segway. I will freely admit to being able to see over crowds which can sometime make it easier to chart my way thru the sea of people. However, I also know that I often cannot see objects closer to the ground... be it kids, strollers, wheelchairs/ecv's, etc. When at a busy park, there have been numerous times where I'll either have to stop short, or end up having to make an evasive maneuver in order to avoid tripping over someone or something. I'm also someone who has spent a good portion of my life at this height and am aware of the issues things below my normal sight line can cause. i'm also going to be more capable of stopping short or making that quick move than ANY type of motorized vehicle. (and I don't hurt as much if I accidentally bump you.)
 
I don't know about the statement that there has never been a Segway accident in an amusement park. We saw the aftermath of a Segway crash inside EPCOT. I'm not sure if both were on Segways but the lady was saying she was hurt and the man was saying that he was sorry. He was wearing a helmet.
 
if someone riding a segway in a disney park falls and gets hurt - is disney then liable for compensation of the segway rider? since he fell and was hurt inside the park?

segways are very susceptible to falling over when their tires are hit...
with so many people around...not to mention strollers...one would think there is a lot of potential for segways falling over....and when they fall over, the rider is at risk of injury (just recently, on a segway tour here - a general fell over on a segway when someone accidentally bumped into his segway tire - he broke his arm when he fell).

anyway....if the rider breaks his arm inside the park, can he sue?
of course he can sue....people always sue ...the question is will disney be found liable......even if not, they still have the hassle of the legal proceedings over something they didn't even want in their park...
 












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