New AP info I heard today!!

[CrazyDuck]

So no more than 65,000 AP's in the park eh? I've seen that number before... Isn't 65,000 one of the capacity points where they close the ticket booths or something like that? With all the people who travel there (on-site hotels, good neighbor vacation packages etc...), wouldn't those people + 65,000 APers put the park at "Fire Marshall" capacity anyways?

 

[HydroGuy]

I was a WDW AP holder, but when it comes to DLR, I'm definitely a newbie/outsider. That being said...here's why it's important:

All this talk about how many APs are out there and how the parks get slammed? It scares me. (Not in the sense that I want my Mommy...but hopefully you know what I mean ) I try not to visit WDW during holidays or even Summer because of crowds. I specifically chose March for our trip, not close to Easter, so we'd avoid crowds. Hearing how many APs there are makes me re-think wanting to come to Disneyland and exactly what we'll experience. Therein lies the problem for Disney. Per day, tourists pay more than locals and/or APers. If they have a problem with crowds because of the AP, then they're not selling those more profitable park hoppers. Disney's challenge is to now find a way to lower the amount of APs without upsetting people so that those that are buying them for a few days of fun will revert to buying the more profitable park hoppers instead.

So it's not that they don't want people with APs at the park, it's that they want more of those people to have park hoppers. Because let's face it, if it's super crowded when I go, it'll probably be a good long while before I think about going back....and that's money down the drain!

All of your concerns are valid and, I think, understood by Disney. They are trying to grow the AP program, make it more profitable, and grow the parks and other higher spending tourists. That is why there is so much new stuff going into DCA - and new things planned for DL. DLR needs people eaters - another word for more attractions and shows for people to be inside of so they are not crowding walkways and the Space Mtn line.

Eventually over the next 10 years, if profitability grows, DLR will have more hotels and a third park - more places to put people with money to spend.

 

[nunzia]

Thank you! I am a business owner myself and find it a bit humerous when folks around here seem shocked, SHOCKED!, to realize that Disney is a business. And, most shocking of all, they want to make a profit!

That is what businesses do.

Well, yes, or course..but good businesses also find ways to keep their customers happy or they will go away. A constant crush of people will, in the long run, have unexpected consequences. Didn't I read that guests were up but spending was down? They do not want to run off tourists, high end hotel guests, PAP buyers, and locals that don't like dangerous packed conditions anymore than anyone else. I hope they find a way to have balance, or DLR could turn into more of a local hangout than they want.

 

[jtl2411]

So far I haven't recieved any "letter" like the OP CM talked about. What I thought was funny was my mother-in-law actually got a postcard to remind her to renew. Hers expires at the end of the month, the postcard actually promotes the new payment plan.

As for the debat regarding SoCal AP holders, were all PAP, I can tell you from personal experience. There is a big difference, even from last year during the off season. This past Friday 1-8-10, by 6pm the park was swamped. Buzz Lightyear had a 50 min wait, even Star Tours had a 40 min wait time at night. And at 8pm, the Matterhorns line must have been atleast 90min wait. I haven't seen a line that long for it, even during Halloween or Christmas.

Honestly I don't see Disney discontinuing their monthly plan payment system. Though I think they should increase the lower tier prices. But I don't see th doing that either, especially when other SoCal parks like Knotts or Universal always seem to have special deals going on for SoCal residence. I know last month both of those parks had buy a day get a year free.

 

[sonnyjane]

In addition to none of us getting letters, I'd also think that a change this big would warrant SOME type of update on the AP site, which I haven't seen yet, although the "News" part is not loading for me right now, so, who knows?

 

[Disney Dreams]

..All this talk about how many APs are out there and how the parks get slammed? It scares me....

There's no reason to be scared. You're going to Disneyland. Now, I understand not wanting it to be crowded, but I doubt you expected to have the Park to yourself. So, there will be people there. That's ok. They love Disney just like you do.

..I specifically chose March for our trip, not close to Easter, so we'd avoid crowds.

This was a fallacy in logic though. I don't know when in March you are coming, but if you look at college spring breaks for 2010, there are many throughout the month of March. I know of at least one local HS that has their Spring Break the last week of March.

Forget AP holders for a moment. March will be a busy time. This is not meant to scare you, but to give you realistic expectations - and to understand the AP holders are not the culprits.

As for AP holders, not all of them are going to descend upon Disneyland during March all day, everyday. Also, the 2 lowest level APs are blocked out many days during March.

HTH,
Dreams

 

[HydroGuy]

Well, yes, or course..but good businesses also find ways to keep their customers happy or they will go away. A constant crush of people will, in the long run, have unexpected consequences. Didn't I read that guests were up but spending was down? They do not want to run off tourists, high end hotel guests, PAP buyers, and locals that don't like dangerous packed conditions anymore than anyone else. I hope they find a way to have balance, or DLR could turn into more of a local hangout than they want.

Since all of us are consumers there is no lack for consumer perspective on this forum. I agree with you, and would add that what you are saying is said many times every day on around here. What is not said as often is that Disney needs to make a profit to continue its operation. And the more profit they make the more they will reinvest into DLR to make even more profit.

As any business, Disney needs to listen to its customers and its shareholders. But for any business the shareholders are more important. They own the company.

 

[jory29]

Well, yes, or course..but good businesses also find ways to keep their customers happy or they will go away. A constant crush of people will, in the long run, have unexpected consequences. Didn't I read that guests were up but spending was down? They do not want to run off tourists, high end hotel guests, PAP buyers, and locals that don't like dangerous packed conditions anymore than anyone else. I hope they find a way to have balance, or DLR could turn into more of a local hangout than they want.

I agree. All valid points. This is a good discussion.

This reminds me of one of those SIMS amusement park games - at first, it's great fun to get everything up and running, and see the crowds of people start to flock to the park - but a few wrong moves here and there in the game, such as allowing the park to be too over crowded, and too lined up, and well - it's game over...

That is to say, in the video game it's game over, but in the real world - (Disneyland) - nunzia is right... unexpected consequences for Disneyland could occur, (such as people leaving the park in droves after all, due to the intense gridlock of the over-crowded parks.)

Profit can only be had when all who participate are happy. Or at the very least, it should only be celebrated when such is the case.

IMO, Disneyland has a problem on their hands whether they as business people making profit want to believe it, or not. (Hydroguy, this is not directed at you!! I love you on the boards and really appreciate all of your input! I have a hunch you yourself may be in a business that makes profit but only profit that is created by making sure that your clients are 100% satisfied with your service/products.) Currently, Disneyland is not quite fitting the criteria to ensure all are happy because it's too crowded. I do see profit being made now at Disneyland and truly am happy for them, but no changes with all of this profit (seem to) have been done to help the situation; more staff to run smoother lines, for example, would be nice.) I guess they might be sinking their profits into the renovations?

I hope Disneyland will be able to overcome this because as much as my sentiments may make one think that I am irritated by it all - well, I am, lol, but I do also see the magic and fun in Disneyland and California Adventure Parks. I would love to see this problem resolved, because I do so love Disneyland, as do the rest of you.

Disneyland, are you there?

 

[DDhunter]

Based on recent news, they are going to do something about crowds. They are looking at several new E-ticket rides. Obviously it isn't going to solve tomorrow's crowds but in the end its win/win. Disney makes higher profits and we get a bigger, better park.

Even on the craziest, busiest day I have been to the park, it is still a great day. I think some of this "crowds are driving out the tourists" is a vast conspiracy of the locals to discourage tourists from coming so they can have the park all to themselves again in the off-season (well maybe not, but you never know...)

 

[TravelingJen24]

I definitely hope that it turns out to only be a rumor. I'm sure that it will. I just thought I would bring it to the attention of those that are really vested in this type of information. I will say that this topic has opened up some very interesting conversation. I hope that other posters have enjoyed reading it as much as me.

 

[Eeee-va]

AP holders are NOT free admissions. They DID "pay money to get in. Disneyland's AP holders are a key element to the economic cycle of DLR. Looking at short-term financials, and long-term, AP holders do a LOT for Disneyland. That's why there is so much offered to them. Hotel rates, exclusive pins, exclusive dining offers, and on and on and on.

APs (minus payment plan) are basically pre-paid admissions and Disney gets no (gateside) additional income from AP-holders entering the park which is all I was referring to. Whether I use my AP for 200 days of admission or 5 days, Disney gets the same gate revenue (though very different amounts of in-park spending). I was just saying that IF the park is going to hit capacity, I imagine Disney's accountants might prefer that pre-paid/payment plan AP-holders would stay home and make way for people who are paying more on average per day of admission.

That said, contrary to some theories, I'm not certain that AP-holders spend less than the average visitor. On average I would guess they PROBABLY spend less than the average tourist, but one AP-holder buying a $1000 lithograph might have just given Disney more money than a small family staying off-site and bringing their own meals. And some locals buy discounted admission and visit for a day or two; those people might spend less than AP-holders--psychologically, I felt a little better spending money on my last trip knowing I got in "free", even if, as rightly pointed out, I'd really just prepaid my admission.

Anyway, AP-holders, tourists, and locals on discounted passes are all valuable parts of Disney's strategy to maximize profits, and Disney will try to balance those as best they can.

 

[azdisneylover]

Disney needs to rethink their perks to employees and drop the number from each employee able to get 3 people in free, per day, down to 1 or 2, or better yet, have them able to get those 3 people in for $10.00 per person instead of free. That would generate plenty of income and/or keep the attendance through this perk down a bit.

 

[Albort]

Disney needs to rethink their perks to employees and drop the number from each employee able to get 3 people in free, per day, down to 1 or 2, or better yet, have them able to get those 3 people in for $10.00 per person instead of free. That would generate plenty of income and/or keep the attendance through this perk down a bit.

now thats mean, CMs work their butts off, thats one of the few perks of being a CMs. besides, CMs are blocked out on major high crowding days.

Its simple, Disney just isnt big enough to hold a lot of ppl. what i think will be a good solution, build the 3rd park. as for AP blocked, Disney will block ticket sales WAAAY before it hits the peak.

 

[jory29]

APs (minus payment plan) are basically pre-paid admissions and Disney gets no (gateside) additional income from AP-holders entering the park which is all I was referring to. Whether I use my AP for 200 days of admission or 5 days, Disney gets the same gate revenue (though very different amounts of in-park spending). I was just saying that IF the park is going to hit capacity, I imagine Disney's accountants might prefer that pre-paid/payment plan AP-holders would stay home and make way for people who are paying more on average per day of admission.

That said, contrary to some theories, I'm not certain that AP-holders spend less than the average visitor. On average I would guess they PROBABLY spend less than the average tourist, but one AP-holder buying a $1000 lithograph might have just given Disney more money than a small family staying off-site and bringing their own meals. And some locals buy discounted admission and visit for a day or two; those people might spend less than AP-holders--psychologically, I felt a little better spending money on my last trip knowing I got in "free", even if, as rightly pointed out, I'd really just prepaid my admission.

Anyway, AP-holders, tourists, and locals on discounted passes are all valuable parts of Disney's strategy to maximize profits, and Disney will try to balance those as best they can.

Or rather, let's hope that Disney will try to balance those as best as they can. Maybe they are working on something as we speak - I hope so, too. It's so hard to see where they are coming from without any feedback from Disneyland, directly. (maybe DL will PM me to let me know.)

You are right, spending of each person is hard to figure out -and each person in the park should have the same rights as anyone else, I believe. I just long for the first couple of years when we went, before the 'recession' hit - and many of the rides were walk-on during low-season. Or perhaps 15-20 min. waits, 30 min. at most. Maybe that spoiled us, but I wish all rides would have 30 min. or less wait. That would ideal, I think.

We tend to spend less than $100 on souvenirs for a family of 4 when in the parks for 6 days or so. For us, the experience, the memories, and the photos - are souvenir enough. We purchase 1 -2 full meals in the park for our family per day, but do share 3 meals between 4 people when we purchase a meal. We buy snacks (3 churros for 4 people) once or twice a day. We ask for extra cups to split sodas. It still all adds up.

We spend sooo much money to get there, that it's a good idea for us to cut corners where we can.

____________________________

 

[sonnyjane]

now thats mean, CMs work their butts off, thats one of the few perks of being a CMs. besides, CMs are blocked out on major high crowding days.

Its simple, Disney just isnt big enough to hold a lot of ppl. what i think will be a good solution, build the 3rd park. as for AP blocked, Disney will block ticket sales WAAAY before it hits the peak.

So Albort, I know it's not your area of expertise, but have you heard anything about limiting the number of AP holders? I still don't think it's true Or at least don't want to

 

[Albort]

So Albort, I know it's not your area of expertise, but have you heard anything about limiting the number of AP holders? I still don't think it's true Or at least don't want to

i think they wont limit the # of APs but rather try to discourage ppl from buying the top 2 tier APs. But they do believe with the opening new DCA attractions, im sure it should be fine with all the new APs.

 

[Disney Dreams]

People comment here on DIS that they spend thousands on a vacation for a few days, which AP holders don't. However if we were to tally the posts asking about:
- Hojos (and other off-site h/motels)
- IHOP (and other off-site restaurants)
- groceriy stores that deliver to DLR hotels all sorts of items that are sold o-site
- ideas for self-brought snacks and drinks
- off-site locations to buy Disney pins
- off-site locations to buy Disney clothing
it becomes easy to see very fast that short of tickets, so many are not spending the money Disney's direction. NONE of those dollars go to Disney.

...I imagine Disney's accountants might prefer that pre-paid/payment plan AP-holders would stay home and make way for people who are paying more on average per day of admission.

That said, contrary to some theories, I'm not certain that AP-holders spend less than the average visitor.

Obviously I can't speak for others, but I know that in the 7 years that my DH and I have had APs, we have spent more money at DLR than we care to add up. Our friends with APs are just like us in that regard. We all love to dine at various DL restaurants. A Mickey ice cream is a great evening snack when meeting friends at the Park after a busy day at work. Getting an AP exclusive pin is on the monthly to-do list. We go to Disneyland specifically to shop for gifts. And on and on and on.

The stereotypes that so many here on DIS have against AP holders is very eye-opening. I think it's also important to realize MANY AP holders are not locals. Those are not interchangeable words.

Admission is soooooo only a tiny part of the picture when comparing APs and non.

- Dreams

 

[nunzia]

Since all of us are consumers there is no lack for consumer perspective on this forum. I agree with you, and would add that what you are saying is said many times every day on around here. What is not said as often is that Disney needs to make a profit to continue its operation. And the more profit they make the more they will reinvest into DLR to make even more profit.

As any business, Disney needs to listen to its customers and its shareholders. But for any business the shareholders are more important. They own the company.

Yes, yes, I'm a shareholder too and enjoy them making a profit. I've owned a business and of course that's why we are in business. And yes, we all say this over and over, that DLR is different than it used to be (seems they had alot of profits back then..my stock split 4 times in a relatively short period), and something must be done about the crowds. Crowds are good from a money standpoint, but you can't give the store away. iIdon't want DLR to become the WalMart of the theme park world. Big machine, lots of guests, nice profit, low respect. And we have all said that Disney is recognizing this and will work to create the balance. I don't think raising So Cal APs $25 will do it. The talked about expansions will certainly help, but will then draw in more, not just maintain the same crowd level. My DH works with a vet practice. They constantly overbook to get MORE..stress all around and who knows how many people can't stand the waiting time and go elsewhere. I've always had a great time at Disney and not felt the crowds were intolerable, but from many posts this isn't the case for many. Over time that could dilute the whole appeal of DLR no matter what pretty bells and whistles they put in. Plus, when you always have everything on 'sale' that's what people want all the time. Who on earth wil shop Penneys except for every other wekend when they have the 'sale of the century!'
I totally get what you're saying, but I don't think Six Flags planned when they started to have their park turn into a yucky teen hangout.

 

[mom2rtk]

You know, I'm not an AP holder, and haven't been to DL in several years. But we're thinking of coming out this summer so I jumped on the DL boards and came across this thread.

We've been going to the world. And the deals that they have been offering have packed the parks there too, even during their traditionally slow times.

I was just struck by the fact that both resorts seem to be having the same issue, albeit for different reasons. It makes me think "packing the parks" was their answer to the downturn in the economy.

 

[HydroGuy]

Yes, yes, I'm a shareholder too and enjoy them making a profit. I've owned a business and of course that's why we are in business. And yes, we all say this over and over, that DLR is different than it used to be (seems they had alot of profits back then..my stock split 4 times in a relatively short period), and something must be done about the crowds. Crowds are good from a money standpoint, but you can't give the store away. iIdon't want DLR to become the WalMart of the theme park world. Big machine, lots of guests, nice profit, low respect. And we have all said that Disney is recognizing this and will work to create the balance. I don't think raising So Cal APs $25 will do it. The talked about expansions will certainly help, but will then draw in more, not just maintain the same crowd level. My DH works with a vet practice. They constantly overbook to get MORE..stress all around and who knows how many people can't stand the waiting time and go elsewhere. I've always had a great time at Disney and not felt the crowds were intolerable, but from many posts this isn't the case for many. Over time that could dilute the whole appeal of DLR no matter what pretty bells and whistles they put in. Plus, when you always have everything on 'sale' that's what people want all the time. Who on earth wil shop Penneys except for every other wekend when they have the 'sale of the century!'
I totally get what you're saying, but I don't think Six Flags planned when they started to have their park turn into a yucky teen hangout.

What you are saying is all possible. But I think, for the most part, Disney seems to have the right people steering the ship now - especially at DLR. The crowds are a good thing because it has brought their attention to DCA's potential - hence they invest $1 billion there. That would not be happening unless Disney thought they could recoup that investment by bringing in more people.

I think most everyone on this thread is basically in agreement on these items:

1. In the short term the crowds at DLR are a good thing because they are getting Disney's attention that there is more profit potential at DLR

2. DLR needs to have more places to put people - rides, shows, parks, hotels, restaurants. Hence all the expansion plans and rumors.

3. DLR needs to be careful that their AP program does not drive away multi-day tourists likely to spend more money and/or alienate some of their customer base

4. Not all AP holders are from SoCal

5. Not all SoCal AP holders are low spenders

6. Disney would like to have more guests year round for better balance

7. It is getting harder for DLR to do long refurbs because the low season is not so low anymore