Need recommendations for a good start DSLR for 16 year old

Just wish they had such good deals on great lenses. I can't bring myself to spend more on a lens than on a camera body, but I've been lusting after some fixed aperture zoom lenses.

The problem is that after you have stepped up to the better lenses its very difficult to take a step back! I only use my consumer 18-55 when I absolutely need the wider shot. A good UWA is on my shopping list then I can officially retire all my consumer lenses.
 

Exactly my point of disagreement. Yes, you can learn composition on any camera. I have my 7-year-old practice the rule of thirds on a cheap digital point and shoot.
And you seem uninterested in anything beyond basic composition and exposure.
That may be fine for you, it may be the elements of photography that you personally love the most.

But there is a lot more to photography. And different people, different students of photography, may take interests in different things.

You're taking a few comments on a message board and making a huge assumption about me. As far as what it takes for a solid photographic education, I think I've got a pretty good idea about what's involved there. ;) You're actually leaving out a whole lot of what would would be included when you pursue a formal education in photography in your description. I agree it is about so much more than the technical aspect. Yet it's all meaningless without a solid technical foundation.
 
The problem is that after you have stepped up to the better lenses its very difficult to take a step back! I only use my consumer 18-55 when I absolutely need the wider shot. A good UWA is on my shopping list then I can officially retire all my consumer lenses.

An ultrawide, a 2.8 16-50, and then a 2.8 70-200...... ahhh..... I could go bankrupt on lenses.
 
You're taking a few comments on a message board and making a huge assumption about me. As far as what it takes for a solid photographic education, I think I've got a pretty good idea about what's involved there. ;) You're actually leaving out a whole lot of what would would be included when you pursue a formal education in photography in your description. I agree it is about so much more than the technical aspect. Yet it's all meaningless without a solid technical foundation.

I'm not making assumptions about you or anyone else.
But I see why we are digressing -- Yes, you're talking about a FORMAL education in photography. Where you may spend an entire semester on composition, etc.
Reminds me of the scene from the Karate Kid -- Ralph Macchio is given the repetitive chores of sanding the floor and waxing the cars --- And later he sees those mundane activities were used to give him the foundation in Karate.

So your suggestions sound a lot like, "go sand the floor and wax the cards for a few months, and then we'll talk about other stuff."
Now, that may all be well and good if Mr. Miyagi is your teacher.

And when seeking a FORMAL education -- you can certainly get great benefit shooting with nothing but a black & white fixed lens box camera for months.

But now, looking at a 16-year-old (or even an adult) who simply wants to maximize their potential as an ENTHUSIAST -- it's a very different perspective.

You seem to think everyone should focus on sanding the floors. And that may be just fine for you. But not all of us want to be the Karate Kid.
 
You're putting words into my mouth. And that my friend is making assumptions.
 
You're putting words into my mouth. And that my friend is making assumptions.

Not at all. I commented on the words that came out of your mouth. Well, that actually came out of your fingers into a keyboard. To get technical.

Quote, your words:
"When I think of a different experience using a camera I think of view cameras or pinholes, where you have to change your whole approach to making an image because of how the cameras work. To me all digital cameras are pretty similar experience wise and the only real difference is do you have optical TTL viewing or not, and even that really is a slight difference that as boBQuincy pointed out really doesn't affect the process of making a photograph. The sensor size, the lenses... that's all bells and whistles and not the process."

Much like sand the floor/wax the cars, you are stuck on learning photographic process -- ignoring the educational and practical benefit of different lenses, larger sensors, etc.

Now, I won't make any assumptions. But *maybe* you'd be perfectly content with only having a pinhole camera, a circa 1999 1 mexapixel point and shoot digital camera. But *me* -- and I think many other people besides myself, would really miss all the advantages of a more complex camera. I'd miss knowing when to switch to my prime lens, how to manipulate depth of field, etc.

Another of your quotes:
"Photography is photography"

And food is food, but a real foodie may prefer filet mignon to a McDonalds hamburger.
Alcohol is alcohol. But an Oenophile may prefer a 1962 Lafite Rothschild to a 6-pack of Miller Lite.
 
I really don't think I'm stuck at all.

My whole point was that you can learn with any camera. I never said you can learn everything with one camera and I think that's the leap you may be trying to make with my posts. Which is why your posts read like you're putting words in my mouth and making a whole lot of assumptions based on what I apparently didn't say and by taking things out of context.

So I'll try and clear up that misunderstanding right now. Honestly I think to really learn more about photography than just the basics you should shoot with as many different cameras (lenses, equipment, etc) as you can get your hands on because you never know which one might strike a chord with you and become your favorite format. And you never know what lessons you'll learn in using a different camera than you're used to. But most people don't have that luxury so they choose one and go with it and as a result they often barely scratch the surface of what there is to learn about photography. If you're starting out you don't need X camera or Y camera to start learning. Just use what you have until you do get those basics down.
 
Wow! Thanks for all the information in this thread. I could have written the original post myself - as a matter of fact, I was considering it. Lots of great info! Thanks so much!

D~
 
For this message I am going to stick to the original posters questions regarding a dSLR but from a mirrorless point of view. Since all of my experience with mirrorless has been with micro 4/3 that is the system in focus (pun intended). Micro 4/3 is also the most popular and largest of the mirrorless systems.

To look at Panasonic's G3/G5, GH2/GH3, and Olympus E-M5 we would not know they are mirrorless, they look like SLRs right down (up?) to the pentaprism hump. Picking one up still does not change the perception, all the normal dSLR controls are there including the dial for "Auto, Aperture, Shutter, and Manual" modes. All of these also have a dial for adjusting exposure, thus so far there is still no difference between these and a "true" dSLR.

All of these also have a real viewfinder besides the LCD on the back *but* looking through the viewfinder is where things change. These electronic viewfinders (EVF) are *large* and bright, especially compared to APS-C dSLRs. The EVF can show much more information than a dSLR, including a live histogram. For someone learning photography this is a big help for sorting out exposure.

All of these cameras (afaik) have 16MP sensors and excellent image quality. It is true that all things being equal (and they often are not) the smaller sensor will not equal the image quality of the larger APS-C sensor, just as that sensor will not match Full Frame and that sensor will not come up to Medium Format. If it is all about image quality we should all be sporting Phase Ones, price/size/weight be hanged. But it doesn't work out that way, we compromise based on many factors. For DW and I it was the size and weight that convinced us to go from our Canon dSLRs to Panasonic G3s. Something to consider: perhaps 99% of consumer printers stop at 8.5 x 11 and 16MP micro 4/3 sensors have more than enough data to print that size at best quality. The larger sensor is just not that big of an issue for most photographers.

The system: lenses from 7mm to 300mm (14 to 600 in 35mm equivalent); fisheyes; f/0.95 low-light; 300mm mirror telephoto (does anyone else think it's funny to put a mirror lens on a mirrorless camera?). Even a tilt/shift lens has been announced. Many of these lenses are professional quality, on par with Canons and Nikons best (and on par with their prices too). Panasonics 25, 7-14, 12-35, and 35-100 are top quality lenses, Olympus 12, 75, and others are as well made (and as well priced).
Wait a minute, Panasonic *and* Olympus?

Yes, Micro 4/3 is a standard and any manufacturer that buys into it has fully compatible products! My Panasonic body works perfectly with Olympus lenses. As for third party, their micro 4/3 lenses are not reverse engineered (as they are for Canon and Nikon) but *fully* made to the same specifications as the Panasonic and Olympus products! Third party for micro 4/3 now includes Sigma, Voigtlander, SLRmagic, etc. Even Zeiss has shown prototypes.
As a professional system Canon and Nikon may still have more options but micro 4/3 has enough options to fulfill almost any lens need.
The lens story is not over yet: because of the short distance from lens to sensor almost any lens will fit micro 4/3 (with an inexpensive adapter). Although most of the lenses lose autofocus we can mount Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Leica, whatever to a micro 4/3 body.

To wrap up this message that grew too long, for someone who wants a starter system they can grow with, Micro 4/3 offers good entry level cameras and lenses along with a path to more professional equipment. Just like Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Sony...
I do not mind discussing and debating these points but for anyone who has not done their research first I may be short and to the point! ;)
 
There are certainly interesting parts of the m4/3 system. The GH2 is nearly a professional video standard, as with a hack its capable of crazy 176Mbit video...Panasonic had to keep the GH2 in mind when designing the GH3 because of the number of professional mounting rigs built for the GH2.

And the OMD E-M5 finally gives m4/3 a sensor with a DXOmark score close enough to the D7000 for most consumers...but, you can get that D7000 sensor in a D5100 for half the price of the OMD E-M5 (or the Pentax APS-c mirrorless body for $350)

So overall the m4/3 is a nice system, but you do pay a premium for compactness (like everything in the electronics world).
 
For this message I am going to stick to the original posters questions regarding a dSLR but from a mirrorless point of view. Since all of my experience with mirrorless has been with micro 4/3 that is the system in focus (pun intended). Micro 4/3 is also the most popular and largest of the mirrorless systems.

To look at Panasonic's G3/G5, GH2/GH3, and Olympus E-M5 we would not know they are mirrorless, they look like SLRs right down (up?) to the pentaprism hump. Picking one up still does not change the perception, all the normal dSLR controls are there including the dial for "Auto, Aperture, Shutter, and Manual" modes. All of these also have a dial for adjusting exposure, thus so far there is still no difference between these and a "true" dSLR.

All of these also have a real viewfinder besides the LCD on the back *but* looking through the viewfinder is where things change. These electronic viewfinders (EVF) are *large* and bright, especially compared to APS-C dSLRs. The EVF can show much more information than a dSLR, including a live histogram. For someone learning photography this is a big help for sorting out exposure.

All of these cameras (afaik) have 16MP sensors and excellent image quality. It is true that all things being equal (and they often are not) the smaller sensor will not equal the image quality of the larger APS-C sensor, just as that sensor will not match Full Frame and that sensor will not come up to Medium Format. If it is all about image quality we should all be sporting Phase Ones, price/size/weight be hanged. But it doesn't work out that way, we compromise based on many factors. For DW and I it was the size and weight that convinced us to go from our Canon dSLRs to Panasonic G3s. Something to consider: perhaps 99% of consumer printers stop at 8.5 x 11 and 16MP micro 4/3 sensors have more than enough data to print that size at best quality. The larger sensor is just not that big of an issue for most photographers.

The system: lenses from 7mm to 300mm (14 to 600 in 35mm equivalent); fisheyes; f/0.95 low-light; 300mm mirror telephoto (does anyone else think it's funny to put a mirror lens on a mirrorless camera?). Even a tilt/shift lens has been announced. Many of these lenses are professional quality, on par with Canons and Nikons best (and on par with their prices too). Panasonics 25, 7-14, 12-35, and 35-100 are top quality lenses, Olympus 12, 75, and others are as well made (and as well priced).
Wait a minute, Panasonic *and* Olympus?

Yes, Micro 4/3 is a standard and any manufacturer that buys into it has fully compatible products! My Panasonic body works perfectly with Olympus lenses. As for third party, their micro 4/3 lenses are not reverse engineered (as they are for Canon and Nikon) but *fully* made to the same specifications as the Panasonic and Olympus products! Third party for micro 4/3 now includes Sigma, Voigtlander, SLRmagic, etc. Even Zeiss has shown prototypes.
As a professional system Canon and Nikon may still have more options but micro 4/3 has enough options to fulfill almost any lens need.
The lens story is not over yet: because of the short distance from lens to sensor almost any lens will fit micro 4/3 (with an inexpensive adapter). Although most of the lenses lose autofocus we can mount Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Leica, whatever to a micro 4/3 body.

To wrap up this message that grew too long, for someone who wants a starter system they can grow with, Micro 4/3 offers good entry level cameras and lenses along with a path to more professional equipment. Just like Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Sony...
I do not mind discussing and debating these points but for anyone who has not done their research first I may be short and to the point! ;)

You make a very compelling argument for mirrorless.

I'd just say that not all mirrorless are equal. Some, like the G3, are more dSLR-like. Others less so.
The Nikon J1/V1 is considered a mirrorless system, but behaves and appears more like a high quality point and shoot. (Manual controls are hidden away and incomplete)
The Nex series delivers more of dslr quality, thanks to its larger sensor, but is laid out quite differently than a dSLR. Plus, only has 6 native lenses. (I think both the 1 and Nex series are great cameras for the right user, just wouldn't recommend them to someone who wants to immerse themselves in all aspects of photography for the first time).

So for someone considering a mirrorless as a quasi-dSLR, I'd look at the models that are designed most like dSLRs.
 
Y
The Nex series delivers more of dslr quality, thanks to its larger sensor, but is laid out quite differently than a dSLR. Plus, only has 6 native lenses. (I think both the 1 and Nex series are great cameras for the right user, just wouldn't recommend them to someone who wants to immerse themselves in all aspects of photography for the first time).

It might have been a while since you last looked at the NEX lens selection, but just to update you: The NEX system currently has 11 native Sony-built lenses, 2 native Sigma lenses, and 1 native Tamron lens, for a total of 14 current native eMount lenses that autofocus. There are also several manual focus eMount lenses by third party manufacturers. And Sony's roadmap (which they've actually stuck to quite well) shows 2 more in the first half of 2013 for a total of 13 Sony lenses and 16 total AF lenses.

It doesn't match a DSLR lens selection, but the NEX lens collection has grown very quickly in only its 3rd year now...they're on the exact same release pace as Panasonic and Olympus are for M4:3 (which had a 1 year head-start on the NEX on the market).

Just FYI.
 
It might have been a while since you last looked at the NEX lens selection, but just to update you: The NEX system currently has 11 native Sony-built lenses, 2 native Sigma lenses, and 1 native Tamron lens, for a total of 14 current native eMount lenses that autofocus. There are also several manual focus eMount lenses by third party manufacturers. And Sony's roadmap (which they've actually stuck to quite well) shows 2 more in the first half of 2013 for a total of 13 Sony lenses and 16 total AF lenses.

It doesn't match a DSLR lens selection, but the NEX lens collection has grown very quickly in only its 3rd year now...they're on the exact same release pace as Panasonic and Olympus are for M4:3 (which had a 1 year head-start on the NEX on the market).

Just FYI.

Good to know. I'm not dinging the Nex system, I'm very impressed with it. For someone who wants to step down from the size of dslr, or someone who wants to step up from point and shoot, it is probably 1 of the best options out there.
 
Good to know. I'm not dinging the Nex system, I'm very impressed with it. For someone who wants to step down from the size of dslr, or someone who wants to step up from point and shoot, it is probably 1 of the best options out there.

So are you just saying it's a step down in size or that you feel a mirrorless camera a step down overall from a DSLR?
 
So are you just saying it's a step down in size or that you feel a mirrorless camera a step down overall from a DSLR?

Depends on the camera. In reference to the NEX series, it's a step down in size. But the IQ is higher than many competing dSLRs.

Something like the J1/V1 is a step down in size and overall quality.

My position is that for any buyer, the size of the camera is really the first consideration. If you want something that will literally fit in your pocket, then ultimately you're not going to be happy with a mirrorless or dSLR.
If you want something very easy to carry, light and compact, but not necessarily something that will go in your pocket 24/7, then mirrorless cameras are great option.
If you want maximum versatility and quality, and don't mind carrying something bigger, then I generally recommend a dSLR or SLT as being a better value than mirrorless.
 
Some people will argue just for sake of arguing. I know. I'm guilty of it sometimes too.

The girl wants to pursue a career or at least seriously consider whether she WANTS to persue a major time investment in photography.

She needs a D(SLR). Period. This has turned into a silly discussion just for argument's sake and while you guys are enjoying it, it could easily confuse someone reviewing the thread for actual information.

You need a viewfinder with information. She needs to be spending her time learning the relationship between light, exposure and time when the bright sun is at her back (as it should be most of the time to begin with outside, BTW), not spending her time trying to figure out how to get enough shade on the LCD to be able to read it. Period.

You can argue about it until the cows come home. Go ask virtually any professional worth his or her weight and they will tell you that a D(SLR) is what this young woman needs.

{off soapbox}
 




















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