Need advice from parents of Gifted/Talented

[brymolmom]

Hi - Here's the deal. My two nephews (almost 8 and in 2nd grade and almost 6 and in K) are, I believe, way high on the IQ scale. The 8 year old has been pulled out of his class this year for Math - and has almost completed the 3rd grade curriculum. Well, that setup was put in place at the end of last year - this year there is a new principal. Dsis and Dbil were told that next year they are going to stop the practice of 'pulling out' of classes and, instead, dnephew will be staying in his 3rd grade class and (this part I love) doing 3rd grade math AGAIN! Of course, the principal made it sound better - they have a 'new' math program where they will learn the same concepts but in different ways AND (again I love this) they have some online programs available to further challenge the kids. UMmmm...if they wanted him to learn from a computer they would have him in online school. Basically they said that the ONLY option is for his teacher next year is to teach by differentiation. Which, by the way - his teacher this year has SAID the words several times that she 'doesn't know what to do with nephew' and his skills.

So, my question, isn't it a law or something that they HAVE to provide my nephew with some sort of actual Math education next year? Instead of just learning all the same things again? Is it truly feasible that a teacher will be able to teach a year of 3rd grade math AND a year of 4th grade math to kids in the same classroom?

Oh - and the worst part is that the struggle is just beginning with this principal. Dnephew(5) is way more advanced than his big brother. He has been multiplying since before K started!!!

I told dsis that after her meeting with principal that she should write a follow-up letter and ask for an acceptable plan and if it isn't provided, she would go to the school board to ask that the district 'guidelines' be updated. Is this the right way to go next?

They're not asking for much - there is a 4th grade classroom right down the hall. They just want him to be in that classroom for Math instead of the 3rd grade one.

Thoughts??

 

[princessmom29]

No, by law they do not have to pull him out. They are only required by law to provide resources that are on grade level. He will be recieving instruction on his grade level in math, even if he did learn it already they are my they are meeting their leagal obligation. If gifted education services are provided by your district and the kids test into them, then by law they have to have access to them. If no one in the district gets these services they are not required to start providing them. I know for afact that this is Alabama state law but i suspect most states are similar b/c small school systems typically do not have enough gifted students to justify these resources. I came through a school system where we were bussed cross county to the one school with gifted courses. i was also in third grade when the law about instruction on grade level went through here. I was in 3rd grade readingat a 5th grade level, and when I moved on to 4th grade I and a small group of others had to repeat the 4th grade readers to get "back on track" with everyone else. Apparently it mad other students feel bad for us to be ahead.
That being said i would still push for everything you can get the system to do for these kids. They may not be legally required to provide advanced instruction, but they should nonethless.

 

[surfgirl]

You've brought up some good points, however, I'll share what I know ... having children of the same age.

Many of the concepts in math are similar between grade levels. For example, in time, they start with hour, then half hour, then quarter hour, then minutes. Then they do elapsed time that gets more complex. Addition and subtraction is basically the same with only more complex sequences of numbers. Multiplication and division are similar, again, with more complex computations required. Obviously, there is more than that involved, but I'm constantly amazed how much seems like review from year to year.

It may seem simple to have him move to the classroom down the hall, but do they have math at the same time ? I know in our school, the kids have different schedules to manage specials, lunches, recess, etc. For him to move to 4th grade for math may require him to miss reading time, or specials, or something else. While I think it is important to challenge him, in the big picture, it might not be worth it if he misses writing time, or reading, or recess.

Do you know what the gifted program is ? Has he been tested ? Most places around me start at 2nd grade and they are soon testing the 1st graders for whether they are eligible or not. Is he being pulled out ? Does he have an IEP ? Rather than focus on the math issue, I would start there.

 

[LittleMissMagic]

It really isn't the principal's position to shape the curriculum. It would probably be more effective if your sister went above the principal - to the district office. Start with the superintendent, and if there aren't any changes, the consult the board.

 

[SLK1]

I'm not sure there is much the parents can do, unless there is a specified Gifted program within the school/county/state. In Florida, your school is funded for each "exceptional ed" student, whether it's a "gifted" child, or a "learning disabled" child...they're all under exceptionalities and each school is given monies for each exceptional ed child. That being said, they have to test the students. Teachers recommend students to be tested and an IQ test is administered. If they score in the "gifted" range (over 130), they're pulled out once a week for classes. However, if there is no such program, you're pretty much going to have to supplement the education yourselves (at least that is what I would do). It's just the nature of public education that you teach to the bottom, or at best, teach to the average, and the advanced kids have to deal with their boredom. Remember too that social issues come into play when talking about moving kids up into another grade, even for one subject.

 

[MoniqueU]

My 6th grader is in a full time gifted class, I see no difference in curriculum between her and her sister a year younger. In fact she has less homework. More projects that I thankfully don't need to help her on she can do them all herself. her strong point is in reading. She tested out of the schools reading program in 1st grade. They changed the reading testing and llast year she tested at college level. She is good in math too and if she doesn't like a grade on a test she retests with the kids that didn't get it (no special treatment), she is very motivated although now i can see she is getting bored and procrastinating on some stuff because she doesn't need to work hard to get a good grade. She has also figured out their system for grades on report cards and does better and tried harder onthose tests that count towards a grade. My oldest son is allso gifted but has poor study habits that are killing him. He had PSATs off the charts and gotaccepted into a prestigious program for high achievers where he goes and meets with elected officials and does a mock oval office presentation this summer in DC.
I wish I had pressed to have my oldest daughter moved up a grade whenshe was younger. She is a december birthday and can't relate well to the other kids in her class even though they are gifted too. It's a real struggle for her as they are immature compared to her. She we are hoping will thrive in Jr high and high school where there is more studying and more creative work and more challenges. She will be in a gate laptop program just like her brother and will do most of her work on her laptop. We are hopeful.
We keep her in constant sports with a 14 and under water polo team so she can be with girls more her social peers. I have found that our public schools just care about the state test scores and not about a childs individual needs.
Good luck to your nephews and I would look for other educational oppurtunities for theml.

 

[Girly_Qs]

I ***HIGHLY*** recommend reading _A Nation Deceived: How Schools Hold Back America's Brightest Students_, the Templeton Report on Acceleration on this exact subject. As a parent of a gifted 6yo who is completing K now (but reading and doing math several grade levels ahead), it was absolutely illuminating. Their site also has state-by-state information on educational policy re: gifted students.

http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Nation_Deceived/

I wish them luck, as we are just beginning this "fight" too.

 

[MSSANDRA]

Our local school just shared their plan to cut back on our gifted program as part of the budget cuts. Sounds like that may be what is happening with this school.

Our program for gifted children does follow the stardard course of study for the state but enriches the program with extra stimulating activities and goes at a faster pace.

parents are very opposed to these cuts and the school board has been advised by a group of these parents that they will loose these children to privite schools....so... we will see what happens.

 

[zoemurr]

sorry she's dealing with this..

Schools have all kinds of things in place "by law" to help students that are disabled in some way, but gifted education is optional.

When my DD was in K she tested way above grade level. We were told the teacher would differentiate, but she did not. For 1st the teacher was much better, and mapped out a whole curriculum for DD to do.. alone. It looked great on paper, but we knew she wouldn't like feeling singled out.

We met no resistence at all to skipping her, and it was the right choice for us. She went from K to 2nd.

I agree that having him go up a grade for math is not logistically easy. (although you are saying he did that this year, right?) You can go above his head, or just wait and talk to his teacher next year. Hopefully they will have an idea. Ask the teacher he has now to test him on the 3rd grade math so you have some evidence that he has mastered it.

Meet with both his teachers from this year, the gifted teacher (if there is one) and the school psych to explain.

Keep us posted..

 

[crisi]

The solutions I've heard:

Fight it - I haven't heard of people with much success with this. Schools are stretched financially and teachers are stretched in the classroom. Getting everyone up to minimal competence is what they are measured on.

Work with the teacher for a cooperative solution - when you have a sympathetic teacher who has an easy class, this can work. But a lot of teachers are really stretched and even when they are sympathetic, just don't have time.

Homeschool - one of my friends homeschools four kids in a classical education. They can learn at their own pace.

Pull them private - but you'll have to find a private school that will meet their needs - many private schools have the same issues as public schools.

Find a charter school - if your area has charter schools, there are often charter schools targeted at G&T.

Move - friends of mine are moving to a district that has an excellent G&T program for their son.

Enrich at home - this is what we elect to do. Our kids do science experiements, extra reading, extra workbooks, etc. at home - they take piano and my son takes guitar as well. Not a lot of it - to me its important that they have plenty of time to be kids.

 

[mom2travel]

Our district has a formal gifted education program, with gifted specialists at each school (at least middle and elem; HS is honors/AP offerrings). Students must be nominated based upon specific criteria and approved. There are also 2 levels - one clusters the gifted children into the same classrooms and uses differentiation; the other has all gifted children together in the same class (but this 2nd program is not at all schools so the kids could get bussed to another). My experience has been that some teachers are better at differentiation than others. 1st grade teacher not so much. 2nd grade was great. 3rd is good also. Usually the classroom teacher teaches the different groups of kids herself (there are full-time assistants in each class), but sometimes the gifted specialist "pushes-in" to the classroom to teach a small group.

 

[Aristomommy]

I would look into your state law and what it says about gifted education. In Ohio, our law states that gifted students must be identified and schools receive funding based on the number of gifted students, but there is no instructions on how the money must be spent.

I think it's sad that a child would have to repeat the same material. Sounds like he is capable of doing 4th grade math next year. Here would be my suggestions to the school:
1. Have him join a 4th grade class for math. Most schools can do this easily.
2. Ask for a full grade skip to 4th grade next year, if he has high IQ and social skills.
3. Join together with other parents and meet with principal, administrators etc. to discuss the rationale of this decision and find out exactly what will be provided for these children.

Gifted education doesn't have to be expensive. Our school has one classroom for Gt kids and they do math and LA one year ahead. It doesn't cost any extra for them and kids get great education.

 

[luvmy3jewels]

Is it truly feasible that a teacher will be able to teach a year of 3rd grade math AND a year of 4th grade math to kids in the same classroom?

Thoughts??

My dd, who is in the second grade, has been identified as AG and is in a classroom with 50% AG students and 50% non-AG students. Her teacher differentiates instruction in spelling and math so kids are (hopefully) learning on their own levels. Dd is finishing up her multiplication tables now, while a couple of her classmates have already finished them and then some are still just beginning to learn them. The school's AG teacher also works with them some on math as well. DD brings home an extra math worksheet every night that is supposed to promote "accelerated thinking skills."

So yes, it can be done. I don't think it is easy for the teacher, but it's definitely better than trying to teach a class full of students the same thing even though they are working on different levels.

Once a student is identified, there is a legal requirement that a plan of instruction be created for that student to ensure that they are accomodated at the level that they are working on (I think its called an IEP). The teacher, parents, AG teacher and possibly other school personnel should be meeting to discuss how to best meet your nephew's needs. Your SIL and DB should be actively involved in the IEP and should be working with the school to make sure your nephew's needs are met.

 

[zoemurr]

My dd, who is in the second grade, has been identified as AG and is in a classroom with 50% AG students and 50% non-AG students. Her teacher differentiates instruction in spelling and math so kids are (hopefully) learning on their own levels. Dd is finishing up her multiplication tables now, while a couple of her classmates have already finished them and then some are still just beginning to learn them. The school's AG teacher also works with them some on math as well. DD brings home an extra math worksheet every night that is supposed to promote "accelerated thinking skills."

So yes, it can be done. I don't think it is easy for the teacher, but it's definitely better than trying to teach a class full of students the same thing even though they are working on different levels.

Once a student is identified, there is a legal requirement that a plan of instruction be created for that student to ensure that they are accomodated at the level that they are working on (I think its called an IEP). The teacher, parents, AG teacher and possibly other school personnel should be meeting to discuss how to best meet your nephew's needs. Your SIL and DB should be actively involved in the IEP and should be working with the school to make sure your nephew's needs are met.

Not sure about everywhere.. but here you can't have an IEP for a gifted student.. only a LD student.

 

[waltskids]

I ***HIGHLY*** recommend reading _A Nation Deceived: How Schools Hold Back America's Brightest Students_, the Templeton Report on Acceleration on this exact subject. As a parent of a gifted 6yo who is completing K now (but reading and doing math several grade levels ahead), it was absolutely illuminating. Their site also has state-by-state information on educational policy re: gifted students.

http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Nation_Deceived/

I wish them luck, as we are just beginning this "fight" too.

As a teacher in a gifted program (replacement Social Studies in middle school), I also highly recommend this reading. It has allowed our school district to change it's thinking regarding gifted students and the programs we provide, as well as allowing acceleration options for those that are ready for the challenge. Good luck!

 

[waltskids]

My dd, who is in the second grade, has been identified as AG and is in a classroom with 50% AG students and 50% non-AG students. Her teacher differentiates instruction in spelling and math so kids are (hopefully) learning on their own levels. Dd is finishing up her multiplication tables now, while a couple of her classmates have already finished them and then some are still just beginning to learn them. The school's AG teacher also works with them some on math as well. DD brings home an extra math worksheet every night that is supposed to promote "accelerated thinking skills."

So yes, it can be done. I don't think it is easy for the teacher, but it's definitely better than trying to teach a class full of students the same thing even though they are working on different levels.

Once a student is identified, there is a legal requirement that a plan of instruction be created for that student to ensure that they are accomodated at the level that they are working on (I think its called an IEP). The teacher, parents, AG teacher and possibly other school personnel should be meeting to discuss how to best meet your nephew's needs. Your SIL and DB should be actively involved in the IEP and should be working with the school to make sure your nephew's needs are met.

In NJ, gifted students do not fall under special education law, and therefore do not have IEP's as part of their plan. I know this is the case in some states though, not sure about the law where the OP's family is located.

 

[Tinkmom75]

So, here is my experience. My DS was reading before K, but so were some other kids. I new he was smart, but didn't have the confidence that he was that smart. I inquired about gifted programs, but was pooh poohed. Nope we don't test for that we only test for LD's. It was almost taboo to talk about gifted as I believe many parents of non-gifted students feel their children are gifted. Or, I love this one, all our children are special. I felt maybe I didn't know what I was talking about. He kept getting high marks although he put in little effort.

3rd grade rolls around, we all know Troy is smart. Yeah we're doing differentiation, but math is difficult to do. Differentiation seems to be a big buzz word for teachers. All they were doing is separate reading groups. I really didn't stay on top of it because I trusted the school to do what was best.

4th grade, I got a comment on his report card "Troy is probably the smartest person I have met, but he is not living up to his potential." So I went to the principle. The teacher did a complete turn around an brought up one of his worst subjects writing and said Troy is smart, but not over the top. I was angry. I know the principle toned the teacher down. So I requested and IQ test which they did. IQ 134. He had been reading at a college level for some time. Fact, yes he is gifted in reading, math, science. Writing he is behing, but this asymmetry is very common in gifted people.

At that point I started copying the assistant superintendent on any coorespondence. That changed the principle's toon. She started working to help me get him in some programs that would challenge him. He is also doing an online Math program which I think is great! It works really well, he can do it during regular math time and still have the teacher to help if he has questions. I can't wait till he gets to middle school because they have more advanced classes.

My sister's son skipped 2nd grade. He is doing great and at the top of his class. Actually he is doing 4th grade math. He is socially fine. I wish I had advocated for my DS more when he was in younger elementary. A lot is repeat work and building upon already learned concepts. Yes, it does work at this level to skip a child. By the time they are in middle/high school they will already be accepted by their peers and have friends. If I were your Dsis, this is what I would go for. Especially for the one in K.

Sorry so long. You can pm me if you have more questions.

 

[luvmy3jewels]

Once a student is identified, there is a legal requirement that a plan of instruction be created for that student to ensure that they are accomodated at the level that they are working on (I think its called an IEP). The teacher, parents, AG teacher and possibly other school personnel should be meeting to discuss how to best meet your nephew's needs. Your SIL and DB should be actively involved in the IEP and should be working with the school to make sure your nephew's needs are met.

Sorry, I need to correct myself . IEPs are for students with disabilities. The correct terminology for the plan for gifted students in NC is DEP (differentiated education plan). However, the above posters are correct in that each state has their own laws and your SIL should check to find out what the requirements are for her state.

 

[brymolmom]

Thanks for all the responses and support. She lives in NY (right near me) - so I agree knowing the laws here would be a good start. Her elementary school, which goes through 5th grade, has no formal GT program. So that is a big part of the problem. I have mentioned testing and grade skipping to my sis, but she and her dh are very reluctant. They are afraid of them being considered 'freaks' (because they might very well fall into the WAY advanced area, especially the younger one). Their father is a clinical genious and both he and my sis have PhD's in Nuclear Physics - so the apples don't far fall from the trees. And I think this is one reason they have some resistance, they want their kids to have a 'normal' childhood. So this is ONE case where the parents are actually downplaying the intelligence of the kids - instead of all the parents who always think their kids are 'the best and brightest'.

So it is up to a frustrated aunt to try to get some ideas for them. I will definitely give them that book/article to read - although I'm sure it will further infuriate them.

One thing that I know for sure - seeing what they are going through, I am very happy that my own Kindergartener and 1st grader are 'average' - just what 'the system' is made for! It sure makes things easier. And I STILL think they're the best!

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

I can tell you what has worked for us. We have 8 & 10 yo daughters, both prodigiously gifted.

THe first thing we did was look for schools that have strong programs for gifted kids-public schools (we tried the private school route and weren't happy with it). There's a big variance in the quality of gifted education within even the same district. Look for one that has a lot of teachers and students putting their energy into the gifted programs. Avoid the ones that have a dusty room with a chess board where the "smart kids" go to hang out for an afternoon .

We work directly with the teachers. After the first week or two of letting them get to know the girls, we request a parent teacher conference, go over their grades and their test scores from the previous year, and talk about what we, as a unit, can do to keep them challenged. We also request the year before that the teachers our kids get be gifted certified. Some teachers are, some aren't. You should be able to check on gifted certification for public school teachers.

For us we like the "drill down" method, where a regular kid would be expected to write 1 paragraph about Betsy Ross using one source. Our daughters are expected to do more in-depth work with more sophisticated sentence structures, etc. This takes them about the same amount of time as a regular kid doing regular work. For the teachers to give them an A, the girls have to do more work.

For math, my DH will work with them on using different methods of solving and how one aspect of math is linked to other aspects (a peek at the big picture for mathmatics). Occasionally we will ask the teacher for more materials because we feel the curriculum is too easy for them-like when my older DD began bringing home elaborately illustrated 10 page comic books she created while the teacher was "checking her work."

THey also spend a day a week in "gifted" class, where they work on higher math concepts and projects like creating and presenting inventions. It's not "harder" work, but requires some critical thinking skills not necessarily pushed in "regular" schoolwork.

I tend to see their educational path as not trying to "accelerate" them, but to "enrich" them. Neither of us like the idea of skipping grades because, having been around kids that skipped grades and seen some of the effects, while your kid may have a monster IQ, that doesn't mean social and emotional skills are similarly accelerated.

I'm a strong, strong believer in keeping the girls with kids their own age so they learn how to collaborate and how to deal with "regular" children-since those regular children are in the majority of the population, and if they don't learn to relate now, life is gonna suck for them when they become adults. I've seen too many super-smart adults with absolutely no social skills to let that happen to my daughters.

Look at it this way. An average person has an IQ of 100. A mentally challenged person has an IQ of 70 or below. A gifted person has an IQ of 130 or above.

The difference between each of these three people is 30 points.

You don't teach a mentally challenged child using the same techniques as a regular kid; why would you assume that a gifted child, with the same additional spread in numbers, would be benefited by regular teaching methods?