my kids are spoiled

[ScotsMinnie]

It happens to be the "real world" for alot of us, which is the example you asked for. (And I'm quite proud of my DH BTW).

Actually all I meant was that the practices in the military are not really used widely in society are they?

I think people who serve in the armed forces do a fantastic job.

 

[mrsbornkuntry]

Actually all I meant was that the practices in the military are not really used widely in society are they?

I think people who serve in the armed forces do a fantastic job.

I'm glad you clarified because I was offended. But the military is a very large society in itself making up a large fraction of our population so I don't think my comparison was off base. And I also think if some of their practices could be implemented elsewhere some criminal offenses might be less common, but who knows.

OP, I also wanted to throw in my 2 cents about your vacation. Unless you've tied the vacation to behavior I wouldn't cancel it. That is your family time and a vacation for you as much as them. Just make sure to make your expectations and consequences known ahead of time.

 

[Faldred]

Back to the OT...

In my opinion (take it for what it's worth), children can only become spoiled when there are either a) no rules at all, or b) the rules are not enforced.

So in that respect, the way to fixing "spoiling" is to define rules and enforce them. A good rule should to be specific, consistent, and have some consequence attached to it -- all the better if there's both a positive (for upholding the rule) and negative (for breaking it) consequence.

Easier said than done, of course, but it is the goal.

Rules should also have a reason; this helps the child understand that rules are not arbitrary, but rather that there's a purpose behind them. The reason could be as simple as safety (their own or others') or politeness. But rules that come across as "because I said so" just invite resistance.

Most importantly, the worst thing you can do is to set a rule, impose a consequence, and then back down. The classic example is telling a child "no" but eventually giving in after repeated demands. It can be hard -- very hard -- to resist the whining and crying at times, but it is imperative that the child understands that you are the boss.

Even when you're wrong.

That is what I find the hardest. If I over-react and make a mistake, I'm stuck with it. It's more important to be consistent than to be fair. When I remember, I try to leave myself some weasel room so I can amend myself on the fly without directly contradicting myself, but it doesn't always happen. On those occasions that I'm stuck with a bad decision, I do try to make it up to them later...

 

[ScotsMinnie]

I'm glad you clarified because I was offended. But the military is a very large society in itself making up a large fraction of our population so I don't think my comparison was off base. And I also think if some of their practices could be implemented elsewhere some criminal offenses might be less common, but who knows.

OP, I also wanted to throw in my 2 cents about your vacation. Unless you've tied the vacation to behavior I wouldn't cancel it. That is your family time and a vacation for you as much as them. Just make sure to make your expectations and consequences known ahead of time.

Would not have wanted to offend you so I am sorry if it came across like that. I am in the UK and think that the forces here and in the US do a fantastic and very brave job and should be commended.

 

[mrsbornkuntry]

Would not have wanted to offend you so I am sorry if it came across like that. I am in the UK and think that the forces here and in the US do a fantastic and very brave job and should be commended.

It's okay, just a misunderstanding, we're good.

 

[badblackpug]

You are not alone. I think every parent has that moment. Sometimes the kids are just particularly frustrating. I think as others have said consistency is the answer. I think at your kids age they are old enough to understand consequences for actions, and instituting some punishments is appropriate. Sit down with the kids and explain why you are doing what you are doing, such as "I work hard to make dinner for you and it is very rude and hurts my feelings when you whine and complain about the food I make. From now on you will sit at the table through the meal, you will eat what is offered you. I will not be making special meals. If you choose not to eat, fine, but you will sit at the table quietly while others eat. If you do not eat a reasonable amount of each thing offered to you, you will not eat again until the next meal (and, no they won't starve if they go to bed without supper) Every time you whine or complain or act up you will lose an hour of TV or go to bed an hour earlier or lose an hour of computer or video games (or basically whatever will bother your kids most)

The most important things are stick to it EVERY TIME. ...and find the thing that will get to them the most. Once they realize you mean what you say, and there will be testing at first, they will fall in line. Also reinforcing the rules by asking "what is the rule?" and making them repeat it. Make sure punishments are swift and decisive. No "next time" punish immediately EVERY TIME.

My sister has a good way to keep things picked up. She asks her kids once to pick things up. If it is not done within an hour she picks up the offending article(s) and "throws it away." (shh...she donates it) but it is gone forever. She never has to ask her kids more than once to pick up!

Also, maybe instead of surprising your kids with the trip you can use it as a motivator. Sit them down and tell them that their behavior has been unacceptable. That you were planning a trip to WDW, but only if the following behaviors have improved: Fighting, eating dinner, whining, cleaning up, and doing chores. Then make a chart and tell them they have to earn enough stars on the chart to go.

 

[sherabby]

My son age 8 has his moments as well. Won't pick up after himself and is starting to smart mouth back talk. last week he refused to practice his double multiplication and I was very willing to work with him and give him lots of practice time. He decided to play playstation. I told him that if he came home with less than an A on his quiz on friday it would be 2 weeks with no video games on school nights and no computer either. He came home with a 75!

All of his mistakes were careless....he got all the multiplication correct but missed the addition.

I turned off the power strip last night for our school week of no video games.

 

[RN4Babies]

I'd have to come up with something different to take away. I've always had the "No TV, movies, computer or video games on school nights" rule, since ds was in first grade (computer for homework is okay; when homework's done, the computer goes off.).

We spend a lot of time playing board games, playing outside and a ton of time reading. I started reading the Harry Potter books to him when he was nine (there were just the first two books out then); I read a chapter a night to him. By the time the third book came out, he'd read it to me every night, and for the books after that we'd read them independently and talk about each chapter as we went. (My son was at an 18 year old reading level when he was 11 years old when the school tested him). Maybe I would have taken away TV on the upcoming weekend.

At least your son is understanding multiplicatioin so far. Now it sounds like he just needs to slow down so the addition portion is accurate.

 

[barnaby1]

Back to the OT...


Rules should also have a reason; this helps the child understand that rules are not arbitrary, but rather that there's a purpose behind them. The reason could be as simple as safety (their own or others') or politeness. But rules that come across as "because I said so" just invite resistance.

I completely agree with you but sometimes I love "I told you so" Mums!! I remember sitting in the concierge lounge one year at Disney and every morning there was the usual request from some child or another about having soda for breakfast. Many parents tried the "reasoning" approach and the ensuing pleading and whinning was amusing. One Mum however said no and at the first "but why" responded with "because I said so" and that was that. Orange juices all around.

 

[Bektasmic]

Behavior Therapist here...and even though I know all the "rules" and "principles" and "theories," my six year old is not a perfectly behaved child 100% of the time. Parenting is EXHAUSTING! Kudos to you for recognizing a problem and caring enough to address it-you obviously love your family. Here are a couple of tips:
1. Consequences need to be spelled out beforehand. Written rules are perfect for 6 and 8. 6 year old might need some pictures along with it if not yet reading, but even one picture cue wil ltrigger the entire rule/consequence sequence. You could even make the whole thing pictoral. Get your kids on board by taking pictures of them recreating the undesirable behaviors and then putting on a posterboard and having them cross them off with marker. Then draw an equals sign and take more pictures of them acting out the consequences (e.g.: child's sad face while handing over the Wii controllers)

2. The most effective consequence immediately will be negative reinforcement, referring to removing something that already exists in their environment, i.e.: a privelege that they don't recognize as a privelege. It should "hurt" (not physically, but should be noticable enough to matter) taking away a day of tv if you allow them to dvr the shows they are missing isn't enough. It must register as an actual loss. The added benefit of this is thye will stop taking things for granted and start recognizing that these activities/toys/things are priveleges they enjoy as a result of being positive members of the family.

3. Start reframing the priveleges that your children already enjoy (video games, playdates with friends, tv time, dessert, weekend activities like movies) as "rewards" rather than things that are just expected and delivered. When your children are well-behaved, their "reward" is they get to enjoy those activities.

4. When it comes time to enforce a rule that has been broken, try this: rather than telling child "you did this, now this happens," ask the child to define the behavior and what the consequence is. This adds a layer of recognition and responsibility. Might not work initially, but something to try later.

5. Effective discipline must be as immediate as possible. When you are coming up with consequences, try to think of things that can be enforced immediately or an action that can be done immediately to signify the immediacy (handing over a toy, making a reminder that says "Billy gets no dessert tonight")

6. No empty threats under any circumstances. Unreinforced behavior plans are worse than having no plan at all.

7. You may start feeling bad or guilty at some point in this process. Remember the best way you can love your children is by not setting them up for failure in life. Yes, it's easier in the moment to give in, but what is the consequence of your own behavior? The world doens't work that way, and it will be a rude awakening for them. Remember you are loving them enough to prevent that pain for them.

8. Do not reward individual incidences of good behavior that you expect out of them. Rather reward a streak of good behavior, and then taper it off. For example, reward your child for going a week straight without getting in trouble at school (if that's an issue). Then the next time, it needs to be two weeks, then a month. And then you move onto a different behavior and don't reward anymore for the "good-at-school" behavior as it's expected.

9. Your kids are old enough to get invested in this from the beginning...I would suggest starting with a family meeting and guiding them through recognizing that they don't enjoy the yelling and negotiating and crying that goes on currently. Ask them for their ideas on how this could be changed, and tell them your ideas for it. Give them some choices to foster the illusion of contribution and get them on board (for example, "These are the 5 behaviors that are really upsetting...which ones do you think we should tackle first?")

10. As my parents told the 5 of us while growing up, "A family is not a Democracy. This is a friendly and loving Dictatorship." Your primary job is to be a guide for your children so that later, when they are not living with you, they can survive and thrive without you. There are times where you can listen and be a friend, and there are times when your children NEED to see you as an authority figure-and get this, it's actually reassuring to kids to know that someone else is ultimately calling the shots and that expectations are clear. You love your kids, and they love you. You care enough about them to address this issue. You are already miles ahead of lots of parents, so hang in there. It's not too late, and you will get through this-it will be better every day. Good luck!

 

[chigirl]

Man...either I am the luckiest parent in the world or there is a slow gas leak in my house, because my kids are awesome! I swear, they NEVER had temper tantrums, talked back, got into trouble...I can be honest and say they have messy bedrooms and I have to remind them to take showers, but they are good. When I watch shows like "Supernanny", it makes me want to jump off a bridge, the kids are so wild!!!! Seems to me the parents are self-absorbed and frankly, lazy on those shows.

I was a rotten, bratty child and my mom would say "Wait til you have children!" My sister had really bad kids, too, and that made me not want children....so I am telling you, I am lucky.

 

[Matt'nMeg'sMom]

My kids aren't perfect, and in many ways I have spoiled them. For example, it's shameful how often I've taken them to Disney. That being said, I am proud of the fact that they are respectful at the dinner table, and have fairly good manners.
Rules that worked for us:

1. Take it or leave it. We never argue over food. Ever. I make one meal for the whole family. If they don't like it, no worries. I smile and let it go. I never force them to eat a food they don't like. However, that's it. There is no other food. They know there will be nothing else until breakfast.

2. Clean up with a hefty bag. If they don't pick up their stuff, I will do it for them. And they may never see it again. Plenty of toys and other tchotchkes have filled the donation box at GoodWill. (Expensive items go into time out until they are earned back or I sell them.) Toys have been taken away for infractions as well. If the crime is especially egregious, they have been made to deliver the donation themselves.​

While I agree with the concept of positive behavior rewards, it backfired on us. Very rapidly, it turned into "What's in it for me." My smart kids figured out that they would only behave if I dangled a carrot. They would try to negotiate good behavior for desserts or privileges. They would sulk and be bratty if I expected good behavior without offering a "prize". So all prizes went away. Now, good behavior is the expectation and bad behavior has consequences. It's much more effective for us.

-If they misbehave, I'd make them wear signs around their necks. Again, my parents did this when I was growing up. Wearing a sign that says "I'm childish and I whine" tends to stop that behavior rather rapidly. (Yes, if it's an issue before a ball game or the walk, I'd make them wear the sign to that).

I support you on this. I think this is a very fair and effective way to discourage bad behavior. I've been struggling with what to do with a particular repeat offense. My 9 year old has recently been experimenting with swear-words in school. I've already had 2 calls from the vice-principal. The sign will be our next step.

The Supreme Court ruled that sign-punishments are not cruel: Click here for "US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Sandwich Board" and there are countless other examples online of judges in the US and UK using sign-wearing to punish shoplifters, vandals, et al.

 

[JerseyMamaBear]

As far as dinner goes in our home, I try to make items that are new as well as adding family favorites. Our rule is, you don't have to like it, but you do need to try it a few times first. Not just one little bite and then have your mind made up. It must be a few good bites though.

 

[bonybroad]

Well, believe it or not, we have already made progress!
Dinner is settling down. I laid out the rules, and one of went to bed hungry the other night. Noone died.
I have cleaned up with a garbage bag before. However, I usually do it out of anger, which is not a good way to discipline. I made it very clear that I will do that every night after they go to bed. If they would like <whatever> to be here in the morning, they need to pick it before bed.
Yesterday, I asked the younger to help me with the dishes. He was eager to help! I guess I hadn't expected enough out of them, because he did it right away. He unloaded the dishwasher and put away everything he could reach (he's only 6, can't reach the top cupboards.
The meals and the toys were my two biggest sources of frustration, so since we have made progress in a few days, I have hope that I can undo the mistakes we have made in the past.
I just have to stay consistent, and we should have these two habits broken in a couple weeks.
Then we will move to the next problem.
Which is arguing/fighting between themselves.
Which drives me crazy.
But... one battle at a time!
Thanks for all your suggestions and support!
Have a Mickey day!

 

[StitchFanZ]

I support you on this. I think this is a very fair and effective way to discourage bad behavior. I've been struggling with what to do with a particular repeat offense. My 9 year old has recently been experimenting with swear-words in school. I've already had 2 calls from the vice-principal. The sign will be our next step.​

Or you could go to school and follow them around for the day. I've known a few moms who offered to do this and the mere thought was bad enough for their kids that the behavior stopped.

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

Behavior Therapist here...and even though I know all the "rules" and "principles" and "theories," my six year old is not a perfectly behaved child 100% of the time. Parenting is EXHAUSTING! Kudos to you for recognizing a problem and caring enough to address it-you obviously love your family. Here are a couple of tips:
1. Consequences need to be spelled out beforehand. Written rules are perfect for 6 and 8. 6 year old might need some pictures along with it if not yet reading, but even one picture cue wil ltrigger the entire rule/consequence sequence. You could even make the whole thing pictoral. Get your kids on board by taking pictures of them recreating the undesirable behaviors and then putting on a posterboard and having them cross them off with marker. Then draw an equals sign and take more pictures of them acting out the consequences (e.g.: child's sad face while handing over the Wii controllers)

2. The most effective consequence immediately will be negative reinforcement, referring to removing something that already exists in their environment, i.e.: a privelege that they don't recognize as a privelege. It should "hurt" (not physically, but should be noticable enough to matter) taking away a day of tv if you allow them to dvr the shows they are missing isn't enough. It must register as an actual loss. The added benefit of this is thye will stop taking things for granted and start recognizing that these activities/toys/things are priveleges they enjoy as a result of being positive members of the family.

3. Start reframing the priveleges that your children already enjoy (video games, playdates with friends, tv time, dessert, weekend activities like movies) as "rewards" rather than things that are just expected and delivered. When your children are well-behaved, their "reward" is they get to enjoy those activities.

4. When it comes time to enforce a rule that has been broken, try this: rather than telling child "you did this, now this happens," ask the child to define the behavior and what the consequence is. This adds a layer of recognition and responsibility. Might not work initially, but something to try later.

5. Effective discipline must be as immediate as possible. When you are coming up with consequences, try to think of things that can be enforced immediately or an action that can be done immediately to signify the immediacy (handing over a toy, making a reminder that says "Billy gets no dessert tonight")

6. No empty threats under any circumstances. Unreinforced behavior plans are worse than having no plan at all.

7. You may start feeling bad or guilty at some point in this process. Remember the best way you can love your children is by not setting them up for failure in life. Yes, it's easier in the moment to give in, but what is the consequence of your own behavior? The world doens't work that way, and it will be a rude awakening for them. Remember you are loving them enough to prevent that pain for them.

8. Do not reward individual incidences of good behavior that you expect out of them. Rather reward a streak of good behavior, and then taper it off. For example, reward your child for going a week straight without getting in trouble at school (if that's an issue). Then the next time, it needs to be two weeks, then a month. And then you move onto a different behavior and don't reward anymore for the "good-at-school" behavior as it's expected.

9. Your kids are old enough to get invested in this from the beginning...I would suggest starting with a family meeting and guiding them through recognizing that they don't enjoy the yelling and negotiating and crying that goes on currently. Ask them for their ideas on how this could be changed, and tell them your ideas for it. Give them some choices to foster the illusion of contribution and get them on board (for example, "These are the 5 behaviors that are really upsetting...which ones do you think we should tackle first?")

10. As my parents told the 5 of us while growing up, "A family is not a Democracy. This is a friendly and loving Dictatorship." Your primary job is to be a guide for your children so that later, when they are not living with you, they can survive and thrive without you. There are times where you can listen and be a friend, and there are times when your children NEED to see you as an authority figure-and get this, it's actually reassuring to kids to know that someone else is ultimately calling the shots and that expectations are clear. You love your kids, and they love you. You care enough about them to address this issue. You are already miles ahead of lots of parents, so hang in there. It's not too late, and you will get through this-it will be better every day. Good luck!

Love this post.

Especially the red one that I bolded. All the rest is useless if you mess up with daily, in the trenches, don't give up, reinforcement.

I am *totally* guilty of yelling at them over my shoulder while typing on the Disboards. That is not good parenting, and I know it. If you want them to clean their rooms, you can't just put a sign up telling them to do it (at least, not at first). You have to be hands on. At least, that what works for us.

I'd love any suggestions on what to do when DH whines about dinner...

 

[crisi]

Well, believe it or not, we have already made progress!
Dinner is settling down. I laid out the rules, and one of went to bed hungry the other night. Noone died.
I have cleaned up with a garbage bag before. However, I usually do it out of anger, which is not a good way to discipline. I made it very clear that I will do that every night after they go to bed. If they would like <whatever> to be here in the morning, they need to pick it before bed.
Yesterday, I asked the younger to help me with the dishes. He was eager to help! I guess I hadn't expected enough out of them, because he did it right away. He unloaded the dishwasher and put away everything he could reach (he's only 6, can't reach the top cupboards.
The meals and the toys were my two biggest sources of frustration, so since we have made progress in a few days, I have hope that I can undo the mistakes we have made in the past.
I just have to stay consistent, and we should have these two habits broken in a couple weeks.
Then we will move to the next problem.
Which is arguing/fighting between themselves.
Which drives me crazy.
But... one battle at a time!
Thanks for all your suggestions and support!
Have a Mickey day!

Congrats on the progress. Do have realistic expectations for how quick you will all be to break these habits....it will take longer than two weeks and they will slip. They will also come up with new annoying habits to drive you batty and that you will need to create new rules about. The good news is eventually they will leave home and then if they leave their cereal bowl on the table for three days, it isn't your problem.

 

[bjscheel]

While I agree with the concept of positive behavior rewards, it backfired on us. Very rapidly, it turned into "What's in it for me." My smart kids figured out that they would only behave if I dangled a carrot. They would try to negotiate good behavior for desserts or privileges.

I don't have a practice of rewarding positive behavior. But, I thought it was funny the other day. DD10 hauled a 20 pound bag of cat food to the barn yesterday, did the animal chores, and something else without being asked. She said, "So what do I get?". I said "You get to live and eat here another day." She made a fake sad face and said "Only a day?"

I do need to have them to do more chores. If they are playing well together, I tend to leave them alone instead of interrupting to make them sort laundry.

 

[cheap traveler]

Wow everyone has such great examples of what they do with their own kids!! I have been seeing the same behavior in my two - ages 5 and almost 3. I have a hard time especially with the younger one just because she is so young. Some of the most effective punishments with my DD5 has been putting her toys in "time out." The little one just doesn't get it. And they have SO MANY toys! We are pretty broke, so it isn''t me buying them. Their grandparents always buy them new toys and we are over-run. I am about to put a bunch away so they actually play with what they have. My DD5 has actually been known to say she would rather have a new barbie than go on Vacation! I can't believe her!
I loved the post about the boy who had a real awakening when he went 48 hours with no screen time. I'm such a mean mommy my two aren't allowed to have any screen time Monday-Thursday at all.
But to the OP, just hang tough. If you are consistent, their behavior will change. My DD5 has really learned that the toys will be gone if she leaves them out, only took about 4 toy time-outs to figure that out

 

[Matt'nMeg'sMom]

DD10 hauled a 20 pound bag of cat food to the barn yesterday, did the animal chores, and something else without being asked. She said, "So what do I get?". I said "You get to live and eat here another day."

I love that! I am so going to use that! Thank you!