My daughter's dog bit the next door neighbor!

[chloelovesdisney]

My 7yo lab bite my 18yo nephew 3 weeks ago today.

He bit him on the hand while in his fenced in area when my nephew gave him a treat. This was not normal behavior for our dog--labs don't usually have biting issues.

We kept him for 11 days and then put him down. We think he may have had a brain tumor or something.
The day we put him down he growled and snapped and snarled at both my DH and I at separate times. All the while he was wagging his tail--but his face looked like he suddenly was far, far away and that he could eat us up.

We are heartbroken to have had to put him down but we also did not trust him anymore and since I have a business at home, we did not feel comfortable with all that.
I would have never forgiven myself had it been a smaller child because if would have done some major damage. As it was my nephew had to see a hand specialist (nerves etc.). So far, he is doing well.

I think you sound way more concerned about getting sued than you do for that poor little boy.


As far the baby squirrel, I've had 2 in the past and it is important that stay hydrated. Make sure they drink. And call someone asap who can help you with that. Baby squirrels are precious, precious little creatures.

So sorry about your lab. We had to put our lab to sleep in July for a brain tumor. From your description of your lab's behaviour and facial changes, it does also sound like a brain tumor. They come on so fast and just take over the wonderful, loving dogs. It still upsets me and it's almost a year later.

 

[EllenFrasier]

I am just sitting here shaking my head. OF COURSE YOU CAN BE SUED IF A DOG WHO LIVES UNDER YOUR ROOF BITES A CHILD. And now that you have NO DOUBT that this dog will bite THIS child, you need to know it could bite others. Hopefully, the neighbors will show you some mercy (although if your dog had bitten *my* son TWICE there would be no mercy). Please, please find another place for the dog to live, preferrably where he can become properly trained. And I would NEVER have the dog back in my home. JMHO

That poor kid...

While I appreciate your well meaning response, what exactly does it mean "find another home where he (it's a she by the way) can be properly trained"? We are looking into a dog trainer to come to the house and give us some advice, so it's not as if we are doing nothing. And I am re-thinking the whole, "make friends" with the boy next door thing. The concensus on here is that it's a bad idea and the more I think about it the more I agree.

 

[EllenFrasier]

It seems like you're more concerned about getting sued than you are about the fact that your dog has bitten a child. Twice. I think that's pretty sad.

Perhaps you missed the part about my daughter going over to check on him and reassure the parents how sorry she was and that the dog had all her shots? And yes, I am concerned about getting sued. We live in a very modest house and gee, I'd hate to be living in the car if we lost it because of this dog. My daughter loves this dog and she is a spunky little thing, but I will not lose the little we do have because of the dog.

 

[EllenFrasier]

OP here. My own update. I have instilled in my daughter that I will not lose our home over this dog and she has assured me that she will move out before she will get rid of her. So, she has started looking for a positive dog trainer to get some help from. Tomorrow I will talk to her and let her know that under no circumstances will her dog and that boy (age 9) come face to face again. I'm not taking any chances that she will bite him again and he should not have to go through that emotional stress either! I realize that if the shoe were on the other foot I would not want my child to go through that.
By the way, the neighbor has a dog too. They keep her tied up in the yard all day and she barks practically all day and they never try to stop her. Last summer she bit my son (age 11) twice! It did not draw blood, just ripped his clothes. If it had drawn blood I'm sure I would want to see proof of rabies shots, etc. but I do not think I would sue them for anything.
Sorry if this post has been upsetting to some people - I was under a great deal of stress last night and of course keeping a roof over our heads did concern me as well as the child who got bit and my daughter's heart possibly being broken if she had to get rid of the dog....a whole jumble of feelings I guess. If I came across as not caring about the boy, I apologize. Of course I was and am concerned for him and not just to avoid getting sued people.

As for the squirrel, whom my children named Peanut, was taken by us to a wildlife rehabilitation person about 20 miles from our home. She said he looked old enough to make it and we could contact her for an update anytime. She told us all about the animals she has rehabilitated and we left the squirrel in good hands.

 

[NHdisneylover]

OP--I am sorry you are in such a stressful situation. it must be hard knowing what to do and worrying about all the bad things to come from this (both repercussions to your own family as well as the little boy who was bitten--I can understand thinking of both and needing information about the possibility of a law suit).

That said, I am stunned that your DD worked for the Humane Society and does not know any better than this that dog bites are serious business. After the first one she should have had that dog in obedience training and you should have insisted that the dog remain fully contained at all times until the training was complete--your own son is also in danger from this dog. The idea that she would want to help the boy make friends with the dog after a second bite astounds me (again knowing she worked at the humane society). I am very glad she has decided not to do so after all.

Now that there have been two bites, I personally would not have the dog lose in the home ever again. Again--your own son could also be in danger. I would buy a crate today and crate the dog when she does not have it on a leash (or off leash in her room with closed door only) and give her a reasonable deadline (30 days? 60 days?) to either get rid of the dog or move out. I know you love your daughter and you want to support her but you also have to protect your son, your home (I think you can loose insurance if you keep a dog on property after you are aware it is dangerous--and the lawsuit for a bite from a known aggressive animal could be big enough to go beyond the insurance if it bites again), your assets, etc. At the very least let ALL of the people whose children sometimes visit your son at home know that the dog in your house has bitten someone twice so that they have the information they deserve when choosing to allow their children in your home or not.

Best of luck to you. I know it is hard to figure out how to handle situations when pretty much anything you do is going to end up with someone being upset.

 

[rgf207]

OP. Good luck with everything. You are doing the right thing and there is no need to put the dog down. As you now realize, the DIS is full of dog behavior experts and they seem to know all about your situation and that you have an extremely dangerous dog

My advice is to see an actual dog behavior expert. We did that for our dog who is dominant towards other dogs. Her techniques worked and we are able to deal with her dominance.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

she will move out before she will get rid of her. So, she has started looking for a positive dog trainer to get some help from.

Here's the thing about Border Collies. They are working dogs. Big time. One of the best working dogs that exists. They are obsessive about their work, actually. So needless to say, a Border Collie must be kept very busy with "work" or they will likely get themselves into trouble. Because if they're not *also compulsively* taught exactly what the expectation is and overseen continuously, they can take matters into their own hands.

So while it's great to get a trainer, what your daughter needs to do if she's going to safely keep this dog is to make a committment to "retraining" her and committing to keeping her busy and supervising her at all times. She should also read up on Border Collies in a big way (as should you as long as the dog is in your home - there is plenty of information available on the Net). The dog will likely never be good around children at this point, because (and remember, she's extremely smart) she's learned (on first bite) and it's been reinforced (on second bite) that she can bite a child and the child will go away. In his mind, he's got it all figured out.

A friend of ours owns, breeds and works Border Collies. He has had some that were not good with children, and those dogs were kept away from them, plain and simple. When they were not working they were kept in a large pen. Your DD has GOT to be smart about this. I'm not sure how old she is but she sounds like she's probably late teens or early 20s? Probably working or going to school? Realistically, if she's going to keep this dog, she needs to be working the dog HARD. A dog like this needs to channel its energy. Many people do frisbee or agility or ball playing or something like that, and not just a few tosses. Along with that, there'd need to be SMART supervision and keeping the dog away from children forever, and that means even on walks at the park and such. Your DD needs to really take a close look at that to see if she can manage it. Because if she can't, there will be more trouble. A dog like this laying around all day doing nothing is asking for trouble. I can assure you it will keep itself busy. A trainer will not change these facts, just help your DD to see them.

I do wish you well. It's a difficult situation, but it unfortunately - at least the second bite - probably could have been avoided. Everyone in your household needs to understand that the dog should be safely put away before any children or other strangers come into the house - every. single. time. If you don't have a crate you should get one. This is the safest place (as opposed to behind a door that could be opened; or outside when the dog could get back in, etc).

 

[Pea-n-Me]

My 7yo lab bite my 18yo nephew 3 weeks ago today.

We kept him for 11 days and then put him down. We think he may have had a brain tumor or something.

I'm sorry to hear this.

labs don't usually have biting issues

That hasn't been my experience. We've seen many that were aggressive over the years. Our trainer had quite a few.

My BIL's Lab latched onto my DH's hand when he went to pat him and he wouldn't let go - my FIL had to literally pull the dog off of him.

And just yesterday, a man was walking a Lab at a baseball game where we were and, being dog lovers, we asked if we could pat him. The man was talking on a cell phone but said yes. I went to pat the dog but stopped because I saw that he was about to bite me - just as DD12 was putting her hand down - and fortunately she knew to stop. too. The man was barely paying attention. As an afterthought, and AFTER we stopped, he said, "Approach him from under, not over". Ah, no thanks. So he knew the dog had the potential to bite strangers patting him and did nothing to curb it.

(And please know I'm not saying this was the case with your dog, just giving examples.)

The bottom line is that, really, any dog has the potential to bite.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I agree with you on all points except for one. This does not sound like a herding nip. Although the OP did not give the location of the bite, she does reference the upper part of the body. The first time she says the boy was ok because of his parka, the second time, she says the boy was hurt because he had a t-shirt on.

Border collies herd by crouching and nipping at the ankles of the sheep. They purposely are bred not to go after the body in order to not damage the wool or the animal. It would be very unusual for a herding dog to jump up and nip the upper torso. Legs, ankles, etc, yes, but to grab the upper torso, there is more going on than just a herding dog nip.

I think we're talking semantics here. My point wasn't to differentiate types of nips. It was to differentiate a nip/bite from a maul. Having had Herding dogs my entire life, I'm pretty well versed in dealing with this every day myself.

Neither of us was there when the bite occurred. We don't know the exact circumstances or the positioning of the boy (maybe he was crouching or sitting) or whatever else brought on, in this dog's mind, the bite. But I don't think it really matters. We both know that, for whatever reason, this Border Collie didn't like what was going on and decided to take action as Border Collies do.

http://www.allbordercollies.com/Border-Collie-Behavior.php

A willful Border Collie may nip out at arms, ankles or the back of the legs.

 

[Luvchefmic]

Sounds like the dog should be put down to me.

actually this is a knee jerk reaction and although understandable I would have to agree with another poster that this dog needs a job, plenty of exercise. The mistake that MOST people make is they get a dog with no or little thought to the breed and what would be the best home for it. Border Collies as pp stated NEED to be fulfilled on many levels or they will find other ways to turn their energy into something negative....in this case the bite.

Hopefully DD will step up to the plate & do what is best for the dog and her family.....meaning dedicate herself to working with this dog....the dog needs a "leader".

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Last quick point before I have to go.

Every state has Dog Laws. In MA, the dog states (something to the effect of) that owners are always responsible when a dog bites a child under 8yo. After that, they look at circumstances of individual bites. For instance, if it can be shown that an adult was teasing the dog and the dog bit, then they might not be at fault. There is another thing about people being on your property who are supposed to be there (like a mailman or meter reader, or an invited guest) vs an intruder.

People can look up the laws in their own states, FYI. It behooves all dog owners to know what they are.

 

[Mickey's Minion]

Here's the thing about Border Collies. They are working dogs. Big time. One of the best working dogs that exists. They are obsessive about their work, actually. So needless to say, a Border Collie must be kept very busy with "work" or they will likely get themselves into trouble. Because if they're not *also compulsively* taught exactly what the expectation is and overseen continuously, they can take matters into their own hands.

So while it's great to get a trainer, what your daughter needs to do if she's going to safely keep this dog is to make a committment to "retraining" her and committing to keeping her busy and supervising her at all times. She should also read up on Border Collies in a big way (as should you as long as the dog is in your home - there is plenty of information available on the Net). The dog will likely never be good around children at this point, because (and remember, she's extremely smart) she's learned (on first bite) and it's been reinforced (on second bite) that she can bite a child and the child will go away. In his mind, he's got it all figured out.

A friend of ours owns, breeds and works Border Collies. He has had some that were not good with children, and those dogs were kept away from them, plain and simple. When they were not working they were kept in a large pen. Your DD has GOT to be smart about this. I'm not sure how old she is but she sounds like she's probably late teens or early 20s? Probably working or going to school? Realistically, if she's going to keep this dog, she needs to be working the dog HARD. A dog like this needs to channel its energy. Many people do frisbee or agility or ball playing or something like that, and not just a few tosses. Along with that, there'd need to be SMART supervision and keeping the dog away from children forever, and that means even on walks at the park and such. Your DD needs to really take a close look at that to see if she can manage it. Because if she can't, there will be more trouble. A dog like this laying around all day doing nothing is asking for trouble. I can assure you it will keep itself busy. A trainer will not change these facts, just help your DD to see them.

I do wish you well. It's a difficult situation, but it unfortunately - at least the second bite - probably could have been avoided. Everyone in your household needs to understand that the dog should be safely put away before any children or other strangers come into the house - every. single. time. If you don't have a crate you should get one. This is the safest place (as opposed to behind a door that could be opened; or outside when the dog could get back in, etc).

OP, I hope you heed this advice.

To reiterate, to avoid that lawsuit you are worried about (and rightly so), the dog needs to be crated every single time a child or guest is in your house. Do not believe that this is just one child that the dog doesn't like. He has shown the potential to bite, so you must assume that he has the potential to bite any child or guest in your home.

On top of this, your daughter needs to spending a minimum , preferably more, of an hour a day exercising and giving the dog a job a do. And this is not just walking around the block. It has to be throwing a frisbee or a ball until your arm hurts. Doing Agility or flyball. Doing things that will satisfy both the work instinct and the energy of a border collie. Border collies are a very difficult breed to own for a regular household. They are not for everybody. They really are a breed for an experienced dog owner or a beginner that is willing to put the time and effort in this breed that it requires.

Obedience training is also an excellent avenue to give the dog a job to do. The humane society where your daughter works should have some recommendations for good obedience classes she can attend.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I have a border mix and while I agree that they need exercise and the whole deal, the thing is that this border collie is dominant aggressive and that is something you cannot "train out". It is their temperamant. You can stop the behavior but you can't change the temperament.

The dog will need to be crated when you have visitors as the chance of another bite happening is pretty high.

I can tell you that my border mix is scary. Now she is submissive, friendly and very protective at the same time. This is because they memorize every cue of yours, from subtle words to subtle body movements. They are like a stalker and I am not joking. Her eyes on on me 24/7 waiting for my next commmand.

I also have a dominant aggressive male lab mix here (70lbs). We have not put him down yet. Believe me, he is well trained. However he is insecure as hell. We have to lock him up and we do when we have guests over. However not many people want to come over when you have a scary dog in your home. He bit my nephew 2yrs ago, not a mauling but a scratch the surface bite.

The thing you need to think about OP and this is my issue as well is that my border mix is forced to keep him in line. She sees him as threat because he is. In fact since she is a border collie if she evens sees one hint of him crossing me with aggression she attacks him. That is not fair to her to live this way.

She is a fantastic dog and it kills me that she is limited because of him. I am at a crossroads with my aggressive dog. We have TONS of kids around us plus little dogs. Frankly it is irresponsible to keep him at this point. The biting tendency has become worse. I can read him like a book and I see it.

My 13yodd finally agrees that he has to go. It is my 19yodd that is the problem. This is her dog. She will be home in 2 weeks as she has been away at college. We are going to see what we can do.

OP the border collie temperamant is going to affect the behavior of your other dogs. I am living it. I thought you should read my story.

 

[Pigeon]

If the people want reimbursement for medical expenses, they may ask for your homeowners insurance info. If you give it to them and they file a claim, you may well be dropped by your insurance company, and you will not be able to get a policy with a different company unless you get rid of the dog.

My SIL (while fairly drunk) antagonized my dog until the dog nipped her, essentially in self defense. It was a nightmare. Fortunately, the insurance agent made a mistake about something and it ended up we could keep the dog, but it was a near thing.

 

[Buckalew11]

So sorry about your lab. We had to put our lab to sleep in July for a brain tumor. From your description of your lab's behaviour and facial changes, it does also sound like a brain tumor. They come on so fast and just take over the wonderful, loving dogs. It still upsets me and it's almost a year later.

Thanks. I am also sorry to hear about your dog. My BIL is a vet so that is always helpful for us--it was his son who was bitten. He said it was very likely also that there was something going on in his head. The whole "front end is snarling and snappying and the back end is wagging happily" was almost too much to see.

Doc was a yellow lab who was very, very light (not white though). He was a beautiful dog and a loving pet (ie. big baby).

I'm sorry to hear this.


That hasn't been my experience. We've seen many that were aggressive over the years. Our trainer had quite a few.

My BIL's Lab latched onto my DH's hand when he went to pat him and he wouldn't let go - my FIL had to literally pull the dog off of him.

And just yesterday, a man was walking a Lab at a baseball game where we were and, being dog lovers, we asked if we could pat him. The man was talking on a cell phone but said yes. I went to pat the dog but stopped because I saw that he was about to bite me - just as DD12 was putting her hand down - and fortunately she knew to stop. too. The man was barely paying attention. As an afterthought, and AFTER we stopped, he said, "Approach him from under, not over". Ah, no thanks. So he knew the dog had the potential to bite strangers patting him and did nothing to curb it.

(And please know I'm not saying this was the case with your dog, just giving examples.)

The bottom line is that, really, any dog has the potential to bite.

Thanks! This was our 2nd lab and there were no issies with the first. And never an issue with this one until this personality change which was inconsistent which then made it scary...

I guess my BIL has had little problems with labs over the yrs. I got my info from him, lol. But every dog is different and now I am a bit gun-shy (which may actually be a good thing as many bites as I've read about on DIS threads!!)