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[UnderTheMistletoe]

If I were being completely wild with my theorizing, I might guess that Snape was actually at Godric's Hollow with Voldemort and was genuinely horrified at watching two murders and an attempted murder take place. After all, someone told Dumbledore what happened at GH....

I suspect that Snape may have been at Godric's Hollow...or someone else was, because of an answer JKR gave in an interview. She circumvented the question of if anyone else was there or not. Maybe someone knows the exact answer...

I've held that the Invisibility Cloak has got a lot more going on with it than an easy way for JKR to allow Harry to get around the castle unnoticed. It seems to be too much a part of the story and plot progression for it just to be a cloak that Harry gets for Christmas becuase DD has been keeping it for him. Somehow, DD got a hold of it, held onto it, and knew full well that Harry would use it both for protection and to get himself into trouble.

What if it's got something to do with Snape and Godric's Hollow? Perhaps Snape will be the one to finally give us an accurate account of what it going on. His prescence at Godric's Hollow would explain how DD found out and why there was a delay in Harry being taken to the Dursley's home. What if Harry was under Snape's protection before Hagrid's? While Hagrid doesn't necessarily like Snape, I can't think of an account until HBP when the DEs set his hut on fire that there had been much interaction or confrontation between them. Did Hagrid question Harry when he (Harry) told him (Hagrid) about his questions about Snape? Did Harry even ask Hagrid?

 

[va32h]

I've held that the Invisibility Cloak has got a lot more going on with it than an easy way for JKR to allow Harry to get around the castle unnoticed. It seems to be too much a part of the story and plot progression for it just to be a cloak that Harry gets for Christmas becuase DD has been keeping it for him. Somehow, DD got a hold of it, held onto it, and knew full well that Harry would use it both for protection and to get himself into trouble.

What if it's got something to do with Snape and Godric's Hollow? Perhaps Snape will be the one to finally give us an accurate account of what it going on. His prescence at Godric's Hollow would explain how DD found out and why there was a delay in Harry being taken to the Dursley's home. What if Harry was under Snape's protection before Hagrid's? While Hagrid doesn't necessarily like Snape, I can't think of an account until HBP when the DEs set his hut on fire that there had been much interaction or confrontation between them. Did Hagrid question Harry when he (Harry) told him (Hagrid) about his questions about Snape? Did Harry even ask Hagrid?

I think Hagrid definitely knows more about the relationship between Snape and Dumbledore than he is letting on. Dumbledore always trusted Hagrid with his most important jobs, after all.

I found in interesting that at the end of HBP, Hagrid doesn't talk about being angry with Snape or wanting revenge. Who, besides Harry, was more loyal to Dumbledore than Hagrid? Who is about the only person in the books more impulsive and emotional than Harry, if not Hagrid? But Hagrid isn't talking revenge. He's just mourning Dumbledore.

Which makes sense if you believe the theory that Dumbledore knew all along that he was going to die from whatever curse had blackened his hand, and that Snape was just "killing" Dumbledore to keep his cover and protect Draco. And that Hagrid knew about it.

I like the idea that Snape was at Godric's Hollow that night, because I think it gives Snape a more compelling reason to feel remorse than just hearing about what happened. Much the same way Draco could boast about being given the task of killing Dumbledore, but fell to pieces when the moment came to actually do it - I could see Snape thinking he could "get back at" James by serving up his family. But when he actually saw Voldemort kill them, saw Lily fighting for her life, saw Voldemort try to kill baby Harry - then he was horrified and repulsed. Snape would have been only 20 or 21 at the time - not much older than Draco in HBP.

Heck, I will break my own rule and say that "what if" Snape were there and "what if" Snape did indeed pull baby Harry out of the house and take him to Dumbledore. That would certainly be a more compelling reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape than Snape saying he was really, really, sorry.

I'm not sure where the Invisibility Cloak fits in there - unless Snape took it when he took Harry, and gave both to Dumbledore.

That's about the most farfetched theory I have ever come up with. I think it might sound too dramatic. And it doesn't explain why Hagrid would tell Dumbledore that the "house was nearly destroyed" when they met on Privet Drive the next night. Unless Hagrid was sent to confirm the story or look for clues or something?

And it's hard to reconcile Snape still hating James so much and being so mean to Harry, if he is really that remorseful.

Hmmm...I think I will have to do some re-reading before I commit to this idea.

 

[SueM in MN]

I think Hagrid definitely knows more about the relationship between Snape and Dumbledore than he is letting on. Dumbledore always trusted Hagrid with his most important jobs, after all.

I found in interesting that at the end of HBP, Hagrid doesn't talk about being angry with Snape or wanting revenge. Who, besides Harry, was more loyal to Dumbledore than Hagrid? Who is about the only person in the books more impulsive and emotional than Harry, if not Hagrid? But Hagrid isn't talking revenge. He's just mourning Dumbledore.

I think that is interesting too. Although, Hagrid is not known for his secret keeping abilities.

I like the idea that Snape was at Godric's Hollow that night, because I think it gives Snape a more compelling reason to feel remorse than just hearing about what happened.

I can't find it, but I'm quite certain that JRRowling said Snape was not at Godric's Hollow that night.

She has also said the the Invisibility cloak will be important to the continuing story and one of the important questions will be why did DD have the cloak and how did he get it?

Another thing I hadn't thought of - is when Harry and DD were in the wand duel and LV's wand had to 'regurgitate' the last spells, James came out before Lily (meaning his murder came after hers????
At the time I read it, I thought JKRowling just made a mistake or she did it so Lily would be the one to speak to Harry. I think now it was a clue that the murders didn't happen the way we thought.

 

[va32h]

I think that is interesting too. Although, Hagrid is not known for his secret keeping abilities.

I can't find it, but I'm quite certain that JRRowling said Snape was not at Godric's Hollow that night.

She has also said the the Invisibility cloak will be important to the continuing story and one of the important questions will be why did DD have the cloak and how did he get it?

Another thing I hadn't thought of - is when Harry and DD were in the wand duel and LV's wand had to 'regurgitate' the last spells, James came out before Lily (meaning his murder came after hers????
At the time I read it, I thought JKRowling just made a mistake or she did it so Lily would be the one to speak to Harry. I think now it was a clue that the murders didn't happen the way we thought.

The James/Lily wand thing was a typographical mistake. It has been corrected in all reprintings of the books.

 

[SueM in MN]

The James/Lily wand thing was a typographical mistake. It has been corrected in all reprintings of the books.

Ahh!
we got our books the first day, so it must have been not corrected until after that printing.

 

[Micheme]

a suggestion that we put the question of the moment in the first post, i'm not seeing the topic of the moment in its full form in the title.

Just a suggestion so everyone can know exactly what we are talking about at the time.

 

[Daxx]

Obviously a lot of people on this board can picture him in a romantic light since they all think he's sexy.

When I read the books, I don't think of Snape as romantic ... although I do find Alan Rickman v. sexy as Snape. For whatever reason, I'm able to disconnect the "movie Snape" from the "book Snape" when I read.

I don't mean to romanticize Snape w/what I said b/c I don't see him as a romantic figure. I think I see him as the guy who would go to Lilly's wedding and watch from behind a tree not b/c he's a romantic, but b/c he was incredulous over the marriage. I guess I am thinking of Snape as I do a friend of mine who was so incredulous that her ex-boyfriend was getting married that she went to the church and sat across the street in her car and watched the wedding party go in and exit the church. She certainly wasn't being romantic about it ... she just couldn't believe that this guy was not going to come back to her and was going to marry someone else. That's how I see Snape ... incredulous that Lilly would pick James over him (even though Lilly had no idea Snape was crazy about her).

I see Snape more as the kid who didn't fit in, was picked on, self conscious, wanted the pretty girl but didn't have the self esteem to go for it. After all, he wrote half-blood prince in his book to give himself a bit of an ego boost that he, obviously, wasn't getting from anyone else. He saw himself as a "prince" even if nobody else did. He wasn't the good looking "captain of the football team could get any girl" type and had to love Lilly from afar w/o her knowing it.

I just think of the kids in my school who have a crush on someone and that crush doesn't even know the person likes them. I think that Snape loved Lilly from afar, never pursued her (for whatever reason) and was upset that he didn't get her ... although, Snape never gave thought to the fact that Lilly didn't realize his feelings for her b/c he never showed them. So, now he's a miserable man, maybe sees Harry as the son he should have had w/Lilly. As we've said that Harry reminds Petunia of James and Petunia has a great dislike for James, Snape has to have that same type of feeling -- since Harry highly resembles James, he brings back Snape's horrible memories from his Hogwarts days. While I don't think Snape wants to harm Harry, he does want Harry's days at Hogwarts to be dampered much like his were.

 

[CobraBubbles]

JKR did say that Snape was not under the invisibility cloak at Godric's Hollow, but did not say that he was not there.

 

[SueM in MN]

JKR did say that Snape was not under the invisibility cloak at Godric's Hollow, but did not say that he was not there.

Yep. I knew that because it's posted on her website.
I found some places where people said she had said Snape was not there (there are quite a few places), but I can't find any interviews or actual places where she did say it. So, I think those people who wrote it must be mistaken.

 

[va32h]

JKR did say that Snape was not under the invisibility cloak at Godric's Hollow, but did not say that he was not there.

I've been looking for a quote over at www.accio-quote.com but couldn't find one. If Snape was there, he needn't have been under the cloak, but he could have taken it with him when he left.

Or Hagrid could have taken it. In fact, that seems more logical, that Hagrid or Dumbledore visited the house to confirm or investigate what happened, and they took the cloak. How do you spot an invisibility cloak, I wonder?

I have also wondered if Harry might use Dumbledore's pensieve to investigate his own memory of that night. He does have a memory somewhere, after all.

Accio-quote is a compendium for all JKR's interviews, if anyone likes that sort of thing.

 

[Daxx]

I have also wondered if Harry might use Dumbledore's pensieve to investigate his own memory of that night. He does have a memory somewhere, after all.

While Harry does have a memory somewhere, I don't think it went into the pensieve. After all, someone has to remove the memory w/a wand (remember Dumbledore pulling the silvery strand from the side of his head?) and put it into the pensieve. Now, unless Dumbledore removed Harry's memory of the event before he placed Harry on the Dursley's doorstep, the memory lies only w/in Harry's memory bank. The memories in the pensieve were pulled from Dumbledore's mind. We've yet to see someone else's whole memories in Dumbledore's pensieve. The memories of other people are in the pensieve b/c they spoke of those events w/Dumbledore. I'm thinking of the memories of the woman who sold her things to Voldie when he worked for Burgin & Bourke. She gave Dumbledore her verbal account of what happened. We don't see her memory ... but we see her verbal recollection of the events as told to Dumbledore. It's HIS memory of what these people recalled of the events.

All of Dumbledore's memories in the pensieve are based on Dumbledore's experiences and conversations. He didn't converse w/Harry, so I don't know how that memory could be in there. Unless it's possible to extract someone else's memory from their head? I don't know.

 

[astarr]

Slughorn extracted his memory and put it in a bottle which HP delivered to Dumbledore. So it's possible that HP could extract his memories.

 

[va32h]

While Harry does have a memory somewhere, I don't think it went into the pensieve. After all, someone has to remove the memory w/a wand (remember Dumbledore pulling the silvery strand from the side of his head?) and put it into the pensieve. Now, unless Dumbledore removed Harry's memory of the event before he placed Harry on the Dursley's doorstep, the memory lies only w/in Harry's memory bank. The memories in the pensieve were pulled from Dumbledore's mind. We've yet to see someone else's whole memories in Dumbledore's pensieve. The memories of other people are in the pensieve b/c they spoke of those events w/Dumbledore. I'm thinking of the memories of the woman who sold her things to Voldie when he worked for Burgin & Bourke. She gave Dumbledore her verbal account of what happened. We don't see her memory ... but we see her verbal recollection of the events as told to Dumbledore. It's HIS memory of what these people recalled of the events.

All of Dumbledore's memories in the pensieve are based on Dumbledore's experiences and conversations. He didn't converse w/Harry, so I don't know how that memory could be in there. Unless it's possible to extract someone else's memory from their head? I don't know.

What I mean is that Harry could extract his own memory from his own head and look at it using Dumbledore's Pensieve. I assume that the Pensieve is not always full of Dumbledore's memories. It's a like a DVD player that plays whatever is put into it. Dumbledore loaned it to Snape, after all, so it's obvious that someone other than Dumbledore can use it.

Harry just needs to learn the magic required to remove a memory from his head.

 

[SueM in MN]

Slughorn extracted his memory and put it in a bottle which HP delivered to Dumbledore. So it's possible that HP could extract his memories.

I wonder if you can extract a memory you don't think you have?
We know Harry has some memories (or at least dream bits) of what happened the day LV attached his family. I wonder if he would be able to extract those memories and look for connections, etc. the way DD said he sometimes re-examined his memories.
And, who knows what memories of DD's are in that pensive that might be helpful to Harry?

 

[astarr]

I think Hagrid definitely knows more about the relationship between Snape and Dumbledore than he is letting on. Dumbledore always trusted Hagrid with his most important jobs, after all.


Which makes sense if you believe the theory that Dumbledore knew all along that he was going to die from whatever curse had blackened his hand, and that Snape was just "killing" Dumbledore to keep his cover and protect Draco. And that Hagrid knew about it.

I was sort of thinking along those lines too. JKR puts a lot of emphasis on the non-verbal spells in HBP. I was wondering if that's why Dumbledore insisted on getting to Snape. They had devised a plan that would enable Snape to perhaps use a non-verbal spell to counteract the Avada Kedavra curse? Perhaps that's why Hagrid overhead Snape & DD arguing. Maybe what they were planning to do was extremley risky or hadn't been tried before? Remember when Snape said in his little speech on the first day of class that "your defenses must therefore be as flexible and inventive as the arts you seek to undo". When DD spoke to Draco at the end he said that they had been aware all along of what Draco was up to so that would make you think that they had a plan to deal with Draco if tried to kill DD. It seemed that Snape didn't even give Draco a chance to do it...and DD was pleading with Snape. Snape could've given Draco the opportunity but he didn't. And if Snape was really loyal to LV, why didn't he capture HP and take him back to LV?

 

[LiLIrishChick63]

Do you think Snape loved Lilly, longed for her from far (perhaps unbeknownst to her) and had hopes/dreams/desires of marrying Lilly and the fact that Lilly married James, the person that Snape loathed most, only adds fuel to his fire towards Harry?

For some reason, I can picture Snape skulking around outside the church as Lilly and James tied the knot and watched them from a tree, feeling v. sorry for himself that he didn't get "his girl".

ETA -- do you think Snape was hoping to, one day, ask James for a huge favor for saving James's life and never got the chance and now is mad that he never got to do that and takes it out on Harry?

yes! i do believe that Snape loved Lilly. and i'm sure that a lot of the resentment he shows towards Harry, is actually for James. and also, i believe it's also why he's always helping Harry. i really don't think he wants anything bad to happen to Harry, BECAUSE he's the son of the woman he loved.

 

[LiLIrishChick63]

I think Hagrid definitely knows more about the relationship between Snape and Dumbledore than he is letting on. Dumbledore always trusted Hagrid with his most important jobs, after all.

I found in interesting that at the end of HBP, Hagrid doesn't talk about being angry with Snape or wanting revenge. Who, besides Harry, was more loyal to Dumbledore than Hagrid? Who is about the only person in the books more impulsive and emotional than Harry, if not Hagrid? But Hagrid isn't talking revenge. He's just mourning Dumbledore.

Which makes sense if you believe the theory that Dumbledore knew all along that he was going to die from whatever curse had blackened his hand, and that Snape was just "killing" Dumbledore to keep his cover and protect Draco. And that Hagrid knew about it.

I like the idea that Snape was at Godric's Hollow that night, because I think it gives Snape a more compelling reason to feel remorse than just hearing about what happened. Much the same way Draco could boast about being given the task of killing Dumbledore, but fell to pieces when the moment came to actually do it - I could see Snape thinking he could "get back at" James by serving up his family. But when he actually saw Voldemort kill them, saw Lily fighting for her life, saw Voldemort try to kill baby Harry - then he was horrified and repulsed. Snape would have been only 20 or 21 at the time - not much older than Draco in HBP.

Heck, I will break my own rule and say that "what if" Snape were there and "what if" Snape did indeed pull baby Harry out of the house and take him to Dumbledore. That would certainly be a more compelling reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape than Snape saying he was really, really, sorry.

I'm not sure where the Invisibility Cloak fits in there - unless Snape took it when he took Harry, and gave both to Dumbledore.

That's about the most farfetched theory I have ever come up with. I think it might sound too dramatic. And it doesn't explain why Hagrid would tell Dumbledore that the "house was nearly destroyed" when they met on Privet Drive the next night. Unless Hagrid was sent to confirm the story or look for clues or something?

And it's hard to reconcile Snape still hating James so much and being so mean to Harry, if he is really that remorseful.

Hmmm...I think I will have to do some re-reading before I commit to this idea.

well i agree, i think that Hagrid does know more than he's letting on. he knew about the fight that Snape and Dumbledore had, he overheard, and i'm sure Dumbledore knew, and went to talk to him afterwards about it.

i think most people will agree, Snape WAS at Godric's hollow. if not at the house, then he was at least close by. i could see him rescuing baby Harry, that i could see actually. man, how many times has this man saved Harry already?? lol.

 

[TurboKitty]

yes! i do believe that Snape loved Lilly. and i'm sure that a lot of the resentment he shows towards Harry, is actually for James. and also, i believe it's also why he's always helping Harry. i really don't think he wants anything bad to happen to Harry, BECAUSE he's the son of the woman he loved.

I don't buy the Lily/Severus love angle.

Severus may have had some affection for Lily and vice versa, but it was not love on either end.

Severus and James were personalities that didn't get along. They always would have disagreed, if not come to blows. They were polar opposites, and Severus is so juvenile and petty that he can't let it go, and holds the same grudges he had for James against Harry. Severus knows what he SHOULD od....but Harry looks so much like his father, Severus gets pulled back to the memories. (How much therapy do the wizards seek, do you think?)

Human, but very flawed is how I see Severus Snape. He tries and wants to rise above....but the spitting image of his rival mocks him...over all else Severus needs to get past that.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I don't buy the Lily/Severus love angle.

Severus may have had some affection for Lily and vice versa, but it was not love on either end.

....but the spitting image of his rival mocks him...

I agree. Lily and Snape had some kind of relationship, but I just don't buy the romantic angle. I just can't see a tale of "the one who got away" meshing with Snape's personality. Very out of character for him.

JKR said in an interview that somebody did love Snape-- but didn't say if Snape had loved. She also didn't specify who or what kind of love. I'm going to go on the assumption it was a friendship type love-- friendship type love seems more prevelant in the books whereas romantic love usually fizzles out.

I see Snape more as the kid who didn't fit in, was picked on, self conscious, wanted the pretty girl but didn't have the self esteem to go for it. After all, he wrote half-blood prince in his book to give himself a bit of an ego boost that he, obviously, wasn't getting from anyone else. He saw himself as a "prince" even if nobody else did.

True, Snape didn't fit it, but I don't think he had delusions about himself to save his self-esteem. Even when he referred to himself as a "Prince" it was sarcastic and self-deprecating because his mother (Eileen Prince) was a witch and his father was not.

I see a similarity to Voldemort here: both dropped their Muggle father's names when choosing an alias. Both were talented in school and had an interst in the Dark Arts. Snape lacked V's charisma, however. I wonder if Snape's social awkwardness is the reason he didn't go fully bad? Somebody had the chance to show him kindness (something V didn't really need as he had plenty of admirers even though he never really wanted a true friend) and that act could have influenced Snape for the rest of his life.

Earlier I posted about how Lily seemed surprised when Snape called her a Mudblood. He was not a pureblood-- maybe she was the only one who knew this about him and that, along with potions talents, was another link for them.

Harry is always hearing about how he looks so much like James but has Lily's eyes. This must kill Snape, having to deal with that combination and all those memories.

 

[lindalinda]

OT..again. But in the sig pic of the Weasley twins of auroraborealis, the twin on the right.....doesnt that look like Claire Danes?

Sorry.....back to your regular programming....