Much to your chagrin...

[DisneyKidds]

I hate that when someone slips a post in when I'm trying to wax eloquently . But, airlarry, very good post, to which I say......

But that isn't relevant,

I don't agree.

So there may well have been naysayers in 1980 or even 1960 talking about the 'bad' decisions or the loss of magic.

These are the folks who were in Cars #2 and 3 while the current generation of Car #2 and 3 folks may have been happily driving along in Car #1. You know what, these naysayers worried about their beloved WDW 20 years in the future. Well, 20 years have come and gone. There may be a different set of passengers in each of the cars, but on the whole, traffic on the highway is no different than it was 20 years ago.

WDW has always been a business. You kid yourself if you think that any businesses bottom line isn't dollars and cents (yes, even Walt's beloved WDW - ok, I'm a blasphemer) There have always been happy people. There have always been discontent people. All that will never change. From the beginning of WDW time, the Magic has withstood all of this. This Car #1 passenger believes it always will. There will never be a time when the bad outweights the good. At some point in time there where Car #1 folks who believed this, but lost that ability to believe and jumped in another car. Why?, who knows.

Isn't it amazing how a WDW movie parellels this discussion in a way. Maybe, those car jumpers grew up, or maybe they just lost their ability to truely believe. I can't wait to get home and watch Peter Pan. Pixie Dust to all .

 

[Bstanley]

The Magic...

You know when I drive up to the entrance of the HRH and walk inside I admire it as a hotel and enjoy the comforts and entertainments that it offers me, just as I do with IoA or USF.

But when I drive up to the entrance of AKL or the Polynesian, or DxL I'm not thinking about how nice the rooms are or how well landscaped the resort is - or whether the new Aladdin ride was provided by some third party - I am quite literally being transported back in time to a more childlike moment. As long as that feeling continues I will be a Disnoid.

Is the Magic in the attractions, the CMs, the resorts, the transportation system, or the management? I don't know but for SURE - The Magic is in the guest, particularly this guest.

It will take much clumsier management than the present characters making much clumsier decisions than they've been making to take my Magic away. Perhaps that's because I don't have to see them upclose and personal, perhaps it's because I am not familiar with the 'old ways', but for the past decade it's only gotten better for me.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Scoop - glad to be in the car .

 

[raidermatt]

No matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to like it. And no matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to hate it.

A clever little "rule", but unfortunately, flawed in many ways. Everybody has a breaking point, and everyone's breaking point is in a different place. There is no 1/3 that will show up no matter what you do. The population is dispersed along a curve, and you can break it into thirds if you want, but it won't do much good because the population within the thirds will have very different characteristics.

Different adds and takeaways will affect different people in the same 1/3 in different ways.

Car #1'ers are not blind to changes. Rather, we understand that things always do change, and we understand that the "good old days" are always remembered a little better than they really were. There's nothing wrong with that, its just a fact of human nature.

Lord Baron, you touched on something very important (at least in the context of this discussion...)

And then I started to see some very strange things. This magical place was a business!! I had never realized it before. It was just fun! But some (not much at all) but some of the ‘magic’ started to wear a little thin and I started to see the man behind the curtain.

I don't doubt that this is your perception. But even though some of us manage to remain more of a "kid at heart", we are still going to come to realizations as we grow older and experience things again and again. After all, I believed in Santa Claus at one time, but not anymore. Is that his fault? Is it my parents fault for somehow losing the desire to maintain the illusion? No. Its an inevitable fact that we are going to realize one day that there is more to these illusions.

Disney was always a business. But no kid is going to realize that. Not then, and not now. When the illusion is as strong as the Disney illusion, it will take longer to see it, but it will happen. An adult who is introduced to Disney may not see it right away, but they will.

But a car #1 person knows this. We know what defines the Magic for us, and we are still finding it. Yes, we now realize its a business, but we understand that it always was a business, and it was US who came to that realization.

Again, that's not to say that everything Disney does is Magic, or that current management couldn't be doing a better job. But in the big picture, what we looked for from Disney is still there.

Now, that doesn't mean that every car 3'er is a crusty old crumugeon harking back to the good ole days. If there have been many negative changes that were truly important to you, like Mickey butter and EE, and the additions like AK and FP mean less to you, then it makes perfect sense that you've moved back. But it should also be relatively easy to understand how somebody with different Magic "values" could still be hanging out up in car #1.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I don't doubt that this is your perception. But even though some of us manage to remain more of a "kid at heart", we are still going to come to realizations as we grow older and experience things again and again. After all, I believed in Santa Claus at one time, but not anymore. Is that his fault? Is it my parents fault for somehow losing the desire to maintain the illusion? No. Its an inevitable fact that we are going to realize one day that there is more to these illusions.

An awful lot to quote, even for, but I felt I had to in order to make the point that I didn’t make in my clumsy first attempt. You see, everything in that paragraph I agree with. However, it is not what I was talking about. So, let me try again.

From my post:

And then I started to see some very strange things. This magical place was a business!!

The first time I visited WDW I was 17. Not quite a kid (Santa Clause type) But not quite an adult either. But I always knew they were a business. It just didn’t feel that way to me. They were always giving away free stuff!! Or so it seemed. Doing things they didn’t have to do, but because it was Disney, they just did it that way!! They could have bused everyone in from the campgrounds. But they didn’t. They provided boats as well. They could have presented you with a check at the end of the meal and said thank you, but they didn’t. They gave out little chocolates instead. They could have (and now do) have regular butter pads that every Denny’s in the world has, but they didn’t. They had Mickey shaped butter in virtually every restaurant on the grounds. They could have always done maintenance during the day, but the didn’t. They did all the maintenance at night. They could have swept you out of the park with those noisy vacuum cleaners as the park closed on an event, but they didn’t. They did that thing after everyone was gone. They could have had ordinary trashcans through the property, but the didn’t. They provided theme garbage!!! Do you get what I’m saying here?

And then one day, way back in 1998, they cut the hours. And that sent me over the edge. And all those other things, that I had been ‘looking past’ (like you are now) came back to me. The deferred maintenance. The extraordinary price increases. The Floridian!! The economy resorts. The missing butter, the missing chocolate. The shorter hours. The sound of the vacuums. The… wait… is that a man behind the frayed curtain?

Now do you get it? (if not I’ll be more than happy to try again)

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Now, that doesn't mean that every car 3'er is a crusty old crumugeon harking back to the good ole days. If there have been many negative changes that were truly important to you, like Mickey butter and EE, and the additions like AK and FP mean less to you, then it makes perfect sense that you've moved back. But it should also be relatively easy to understand how somebody with different Magic "values" could still be hanging out up in car #1.

You would think so, but it isn’t. You see, I can understand you maybe not seeing it on your own. Maybe nothing really bothered you. But anyone who hangs out on these boards for any length of time should certainly start to empathize with so many people, complaining so loudly, about so many things!! I would think that it would almost be enough to put anyone in car #2. And a little more insight into the company (and the players) will enlighten everyone to the fact that Ei$ner’s values and “Disney philosophy” is almost diametrically opposed to Walt’s. If that ain’t enough to shove you firmly into car #3, then I don’t know what would.

I mean that’s the idea for the cars anyway. Not what’s there now, but the direction they are going. You can’t possibly want Ei$ner to leave and not be at least in car #2. Otherwise, why do you want him to leave? At least that’s the way I see it.

So I can see how someone that goes to Disney every once in a while would be a car #1 type. But no!! I can’t see at all how anyone who spends any time here can possible be a number 1 car rider. Sorry. I don’t get it!

 

[Another Voice]

The rule of the thirds is not meant for the audience, it’s meant for the creators. It is a character test, a chance to see how hard someone is willing to work get the approval of the “middle third” or if they are lazy and only willing to settle to the third that they were going to get anyway. It’s also a caution that trying to please everyone all the time is an impossible and foolish task.

The difference between “audience” and “creator” is much more than just a difference than perspective. The audience looks at something and asks “is this magical to me?” where the creator has to sit back and ask “will my audience find this magical enough?”. An audience never needs to worry about how the “magic” is produced. It’s either there or it isn’t. A creator obsesses about it because “how do I create magic” is a question that has no answer.

There are ideas, there are guesses and there are opinions. But there are no hard and fast rules. So when you see someone that’s been able to produce the effect consistently, you have to figure they must have been doing something right. That’s why when someone like Disney is able to articulate his philosophy people should take notice.

Any business needs to produce successful products. Disney is certainly not an exception. The complaints about places like California Adventure and the cancellation of early entry arise because it seems that The Company is intentionally ignoring the very guidelines and standards that made it so successful in the first place. That doesn’t mean change can’t happen. In fact it encourages change because standards lay out a clear path to what is “good” and what is “bad”. Confidence in business is a powerful tool, uncertainty is damaging.

My concern is not to suddenly wake up someday and realize the Santa Claus doesn’t exist. My real concern is a business concern, a fear that my children will wake up and not know that a Disney exists.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Did they add J, J-J, Jaded to the Aerosmith songs on RnR (a wonderful, unique, and Magical addition to WDW BTW) ?

Now Mr. Baron, I won't profess to have been around WDW as long as others, but 11 years is a long time, and predates your "crumbling of the world". I am not new to these boards either, but am somewhat new to this wonderful, insightful, and intelligent crew on the Debate, ooops Rumors and News board. I respect your opinions, but I respectfully disagree. You don't see how we can stay in Car #1 because WDW is not what it once was to you, not what you want it to be right now. But many of the things you mention as lost - I saw them go, but WDW is still the same to me, and still provides me the Magic I drink up enthusiastically. You were pushed over the edge. I'd like to think that I never will be. I suppose time will tell, but I'm not budging from Car #1.

You see, I can understand you maybe not seeing it on your own. Maybe nothing really bothered you. But anyone who hangs out on these boards for any length of time should certainly start to empathize with so many people, complaining so loudly, about so many things!! I would think that it would almost be enough to put anyone in car #2. And a little more insight into the company (and the players) will enlighten everyone to the fact that Ei$ner’s values and “Disney philosophy” is almost diametrically opposed to Walt’s. If that ain’t enough to shove you firmly into car #3, then I don’t know what would.

How noble of you (you are a Baron after all) to go out of your way to educate us. But just because we don't agree, or see things the way others do, doesn't mean we are ignorant. And as for the masses complaining so loudly - it takes bold individuals with strong beliefs in the Magic to stand against those masses.

You know what, when I spend time on the other boards I see an awful lot of wonder, amazement, and happiness regarding all that WDW is and has to offer. Sure, there are complaints - always have been and always will be - but perhaps the masses aren't so massive.

Yes things have changed. Sure Disney has made some mistakes. For sure the economy and world events have forced yet more changes. However, when you truely love something you accept it's good and bad. You weather the storms. Someday, most of the passengers in Cars #2 and 3 will find themselves fighting to get behind the wheel of Car #1 - just think of all the time you will have lost. Sure, you will have been in the World (because deep down you know the strength of the Magic endures) but will you have enjoyed the ride as much as you could have? Life is a journey, not a destination.

Go ahead, rejoin those of us happily riding along in Car#1 - you know you want to .

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Did they add J, J-J, Jaded to the Aerosmith songs on RnR (a wonderful, unique, and Magical addition to WDW BTW)

Oh my! Another thing we disagree on. You must have missed my ramblings last year about RnR. But we’ll save that on for another thread. Too many going on at the moment anyway!

Now Mr. Baron, I won't profess to have been around WDW as long as others, but 11 years is a long time, and predates your "crumbling of the world".

Ahhh… no. It certainly does NOT predate my crumbling of the world. I’m afraid it goes back much, much farther. I know I don’t have the best writing style, but I usually make up for that in volume. I thought everyone on this board knew I was one of the few, even in car three, that places the date as the day Ei$ner took over. I am one of the few that thinks he’s been inept from day one. In my mind there is no Good-Mike turned Bad-Mike. He’s the same guy. No, not quite. He’s probably more arrogant now. But that’s about it. I’ll be glad to discuss it. Start a thread. It’s guaranteed to be a 12 pager, at least!!

How noble of you (you are a Baron after all) to go out of your way to educate us. But just because we don't agree, or see things the way others do, doesn't mean we are ignorant. And as for the masses complaining so loudly - it takes bold individuals with strong beliefs in the Magic to stand against those masses.

Whoops!! Did I come off as sounding arrogant? I must have to have pulled a reaction like this from you. Let me say here and now that I’m sorry for that. I did not mean to infer in the least that you were not intelligent (the Captain is another story). And I really didn’t mean to come off as pedantic and/or demeaning.

In fact, it wasn’t me I was referring to. It was all the other on this board that contribute to the discussion. AV for his take on the inside stuff, JeffJewell for his understanding of Disney standards, Gcurling for the number crunching and middle of the road type insight that we so desperately need at times. And even the Pirate, DisDuck, Scoop and lately yourself for, if nothing else, sparking ideas that I hadn’t considered before. Forcing me to think, in concrete and logical terms, about some things I had only vague feelings about until recently. I get an education every day on this Board. Don’t you?

So, I didn’t mean to come off as all knowing. I meant that with so much information here, especially about the personalities involved in the upper management of Disney, it is really hard for me to think that anyone wouldn’t be in car two, at least!! I mean, Pre$$ler!?!?! That’s got to make some of the hairs on the back of your neck stand up a little, doesn’t it? And then the next logical thought (to me at least) is “who picked him?” And that downright scares me!!! And I really can’t understand why it wouldn’t scare you too.

However, when you truly love something you accept it's good and bad.

I don’t think so!!! You’re talking about a wife or the kids. Not a business! And especially not a business that fails to deliver!!

Someday, most of the passengers in Cars #2 and 3 will find themselves fighting to get behind the wheel of Car #1

I can’t wait!! As soon as Disney indicates to me that they are going back to the Philosophy upon which they were founded, I’ll volunteer to push Car #1 to WDW – Uphill – Both ways!!!

Life is a journey, not a destination.

You’re right!! Life is a journey. WDW is a destination!!!

 

[HB2K]

You know what, when I spend time on the other boards I see an awful lot of wonder, amazement, and happiness regarding all that WDW is and has to offer.

But what is the cause of the amazement, wonder & happiness? Is it anything at the parks that was built within the last 5 years? Are people in awe of DinoRama? Are they getting the warm & fuzzies over the reduced hours?

No.

They are raving about all of the stuff that was added either by Walt's original plans (i.e. Carosel, the castle, Main Street, and to a lesser extent EPCOT), or additions made to the park before Ei$ner earned his $ (Splash, TOT, etc).

That's my main problem with the parks. I can see what I enjoy. I can see what I don't. I can't see them adding anything with the scope of say TOT in the next 5-10 years....while I can see plenty of spinners & Primevil whirls. To me that's sad.

Mission:SPACE may help to pull me back in, but it seems like the advance press on that ride shows it is just that...a ride. Not an E Ticket attraction which tells a story from beginning to end.

 

[raidermatt]

Based on comments made in this thread, as well as the "Early Entry" thread, I think a review of the car descriptions is in order:

1- The Magic is as strong as ever.
2- The Magic has faded, but I am very optimistic.
3- The Magic is in serious jeopardy.
4- The Magic is lost. I'm not going back.

While car #3 does not directly address the current state of the Magic, I think its pretty clearly implied that the current state is worse than in car #2, which describes it as faded. So I think its very possible for somebody to think things are heading in the wrong direction, but have not taken the shine off of the Magic.

If I could define the top 100 things that were the most Magical for me based on my early visits to DL, and 95 are still there, with 2 or 3 others added, how can I logically say that the Magic has truly faded? If your "top 100" has been more severly impacted, I can easily understand your move to #3.

Speaking only for myself, I should probably define myself as a car 1.25'er... Yes, there are a few things that have happened that disturb me, however there are also some things that I am very happy with. The net of what has happened is probably a wash, but I do see how some of the roads that are being chosen can lead to bigger trouble. However, nothing that has happened is irreversable, and Disney has not gone so far down any of the "bad" paths for me to say the Magic has truly faded.

But anyone who hangs out on these boards for any length of time should certainly start to empathize with so many people, complaining so loudly, about so many things!!

Yes, I DO empathize! I'm sorry if I haven't made that clear. And in fact, the points made by the 2's and 3's on this board are the main reason why I would call myself a 1.25 vs a 1.00. And if I took your words (and AV's, Jewell's, etc) as gospel, I probably would move to 3. After all, you are all very good at naming the takeaways, and pointing out how things don't meet the Disney standard. HOWEVER, you are also quick to discount just about any adds that someone points out as an example of true magic.

If I say FP has enhanced the Magic for my family tremendously, I get an explanation of the 'true' motiviation behind it and why it really is a bad thing. Instead of waiting 1 hour+ for Splash Mountain, I wait 10 minutes and I'm told I shouldn't be happy about that.

Sorry. I don’t get it!

Yes! This is exactly how I feel when I'm told that the magic I feel in AK or on the Boardwalk is not really Magic, but merely my own misunderstanding of what Magic is.

 

[DisneyKidds]

My good Mr. Baron, the inherent problem with non living entities like these forums is that it is not always easy to make your compatriots see or feel sarcasm (and many other communication subtleties and ethno nonverbal forms of communication) I guess I could have used a well placed . Rest assured, no offense was taken to your post, and I did not read 'arrogance' (ok, maybe a little) I do appreciate what you, AV, Greg, Jeff, et. al. bring to the table, which is considerably more than I do, in fact. I hear what you all say. I understand what you all say. I appreciate what you all say. Heck, I agree with a lot of what you all say. But not everything, and certainly not the opinion on the Magic or ..... what was the original point of this thread - it escapes me now .

Ahhh… no. It certainly does NOT predate my crumbling of the world.

OK, perhaps in your opinion the ground was undermined previously, but I still think 11 years predates most, if not all, of the symptoms you listed.

I don’t think so!!! You’re talking about a wife or the kids.

I kind of liken WDW to a problem child. Sure, he has some issues. Sure, it may take some time to work through them. Some are his fault, some aren't. However, I know he is a good kid and he will come around. I won't throw the baby out with the bath water.

As soon as Disney indicates to me that they are going back to the Philosophy

Can someone give me the complete Philosophy? AV? Not just the mom and apple pie parts related to customer service, but the whole Philosophy, including the unsexy nuts and bolts BUSINESS aspects (because business is about more than just customer service, although it is primary). That might aid in my education, which does go on everyday .

HB2K - I think the jury is out on all of that. Nothing specific to make me say that, but you can't put your finger on Magic either.

You’re right!! Life is a journey. WDW is a destination!!!

Touche. I did open myself up for that one and should have known better - but you know better than to have read that literally .

 

[DisDuck]

A little history that maybe only the Baron remembers from long dead posts.

I come to Disney from a different root than many here. I grew up in NYC in the 50's only DL existed - no WDW. My love for Disney comes from the MMC, from Zorro, from the Wild-Life Adventure Stories. in other words from TV. So what were my expectations of Disney and did they exceed them. How do I know? I was only a duckling with a 'coonskin hat pretending to be Davy. Then in 1974 I saw MK (only park at the time) and I stepped into TV land. This was MY DISNEY coming alive right in front of me at the ripe old age of 25. I have been hooked ever since.

The MAGIC is there every time I go. My expectations are exceeded every time I go. Who cares about hours? In my 'good old days' there were ZEROS hours. Only what I saw on TV. I have learned that the 'good old days' are not always what they crack up to be. In my day, we were taught to hide under our desks and cover our eyes to protect from flying glass as the 'commie' nuked us. So today no 'commie' to nuke us just someone else will do it.. So the 'good old days' are still here.

Eisner is not the reason I go or don't go neither is Pressler. I go because it brings to life my Disney childhood. That is why I embaress my 17yo daughter every time we go. She becomes older than me. I am a 5 yo left alone in the candy store. Yummy, Yummy.

WDW would have to crumble in front of me and look like my local 6flags for me to lose the MAGIC and drop out of Car #1. The likelyhood of that happening in my lifetime is NIL. Even with visible maintenance crews or sweepers coming after you at closing that is better than no maintenance and no sweepers like at my local park.

So if there are no objections, I am taking over Car #1 and driving it to WDW June 22 to June 30th.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Here, here Duck .

I go because it brings to life my Disney childhood. That is why I embaress my 17yo daughter every time we go. She becomes older than me. I am a 5 yo left alone in the candy store. Yummy, Yummy.

Now that is Magic - THE Magic. 'No, no, you can't take that away from me.'

 

[Bstanley]

Can I go?! Can I go?! Aw shucks, I've gotta wait...

You go, Duck!

 

[Another Voice]

And my history is from the other side. I grew up as a child at Disneyland and then went to work “behind the scenes”. I know from both observation and from experience that the old days were not always good. But neither are the present days.

I know that “magic” for an individual is different than “magic” for the entire audience. A single person will never loose their feelings, their emotional attachments, their memories of “the magic”. It’s solid and permanent. And yes, Disney does still hold a lot of “magic” for me too. The memories of family, of good times, of bad times, of tragic times, of wondrous times.

But I also know that creating the magic is neither easy nor permanent. Every time the projector starts or the gates of the park open a whole new audience shows up. The “magic” has to be created anew, without the benefits of memories or existing feelings. It is extremely difficult to do. Almost impossible. It can only be achieved by tremendous hard work that very few people are really capable of performing.

It is all too easy for most people just to the give up and to slack off. In my current working life I see far too much of it; the soulless products like ‘Scooby Doo’, the cynical scams like ‘Pearl Harbor’, the joyless rot of ‘The Scorpion King’. They are worse than garbage; they are theft of time, talent, and the audience’s trust. But like any scam, there’s always a chance to make money. Most people in the industry are in it for the bucks and not to create.

Untimely it is a short sighted and futile attempt. True quality wins out in the end. ‘Snow White’ still makes money after seventy-five years, ‘Fantasia’ is still in active release and has been shown somewhere on earth at least once a day since 1940. Disneyland is still going strong at fifty years. Real magic, not the marketing kind, pays for itself.

I am critical of Disney at present not because the magic has disappeared overnight, but because I no longer see them striving to create. Instead, I see far too many examples of them simply giving up and going for the money, and I see far too few attempts to honestly make something that will last, to make new “magic” instead of plundering what already exists. There is absolutely nothing wrong with demanding that they strive, but there is everything wrong with passively accepting their unwillingness to try.

While “magic” is certainly created within an individual, it can not be measured just by the individual. True “magic” can only be measured by longevity, by its ability to form inside new people, in new generations. That is a fragile and painstaking task that is not achieved by profit margins or compromises or lowered expectations.

Magic is only created by pure imagination and a lot of hard work.

 

[DisneyKidds]

True “magic” can only be measured by longevity, by its ability to form inside new people, in new generations.

And I submit that this is happening, in droves. As we were riding home in the car tonight I posed the carpool poll to the DW. We had some short discussion about it, and these thought provoking threads, and what do I hear from out of the darkness of the back seat......

'Daddy, take us back to Disney World' (GAWD - she is soooooo cute )

She IS a new Disney generation. The “magic” has BEEN created anew, without the benefits of memories or existing feelings. And it is not due to any 'plundering' of what already exists. Some of her favorite stuff is post Walt, post 70's, post 80's, and post 90's.

And you know what, watching that Magic created anew within our little new people only adds a new dimension to my individual magic.

Who is driving Car #1 right now? Need a break? I feel the need to get out of the back seat and behind the wheel .

 

[space42]

Did I mention how much I love this place??

Something that must also be said. All cars are still headed to WDW!!!!! (except for car #4)


Something Scoop said earlier I just had to reply to!

Aloud I wonder what these boards would have been like had this technology existed on in 1980?
Probably no different than today.

That is a good question. In 1980, I was 9 years old. Already making regular trips to WDW since it opened (living in FL has some advantages). Ok, lets set the wayback machine to 1980.
Lets see.. The Magic Kingdom is also 9 years old. We have had two major E-Ticket expansions already (Pirates 1973, Space Mountain 1975). And whats this construction they are finishing at the end of Frontierland? ANOTHER E-Ticket? ALREADY! Wow, this one looks way cool.. as Big Thunder Mountain looms in the distance. I can't wait to ride this one... have to come back next year again
Lets visit Main Street... oh, I think I'll spend my allowance at the Main Street magic shop.. ohh, I even have change for the penny arcade!
Oh, whats this??? the EPCOT preview center!! WOW, a whole new Disney Park is getting buit!! Oh, they are expanding the monorail system too??? What? I can already ride it? Lets take a ride on the new monorail expansion..... WOW, 2 more years to wait to visit EPCOT. Can't wait....... Boy, the 1980s sure were an optimistic time for WDW.


Ok, back to 2002.... Looking back to 1980, I was probably on the hood of Car#1. Shoot, I would have pushed the thing to WDW if I had to!! (couldn't drive yet)
I'm sure there were some people that could have found things to complain about (there always will be). I would also bet that you would be hard pressed to find some people to join a Car#3 carpool in 1980 though. Magic faded? I don't think so. It was overflowing.. so much so, that the wave of magic didn't crest until the mid 1990's

ps. thanks Scoop for the thought provoking question

 

[DisneyKidds]

Space - help me get things straight so I understand where you ride and what you think. You are in Car #3. I gather you are saying that the Magic didn't start fading for you until that wave crested in the mid 90's, yes?

You are so right. The 80's were before my time at WDW, but I do realize that it was a time of exponential growth. Growth may have slowed down through the mid 90's (but to be honest, a heck of a lot has been added in that time) - but has continued, maybe not the things everyone wants, but it continues (yeah, yeah - go on about cookie cutter carny cheapos, you know you can't help yourself ). I guess I just can't understand (and maybe you aren't saying this) how a slowdown in growth can be equated to a fade in the Magic. Fact of the matter is, it would be impossible for WDW, or any theme park destination, to continue to grow at the rate WDW was in the 80's. Never could happen. Not feasable. But just because it didn't means the Magic wasn't the same anymore? I can't buy that one - but you are more than happy to keep trying to sell it .

 

[space42]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Space - help me get things straight so I understand where you ride and what you think. You are in Car #3. I gather you are saying that the Magic didn't start fading for you until that wave crested in the mid 90's, yes?

You are so right. The 80's were before my time at WDW, but I do realize that it was a time of exponential growth. Growth may have slowed down through the mid 90's (but to be honest, a heck of a lot has been added in that time) - but has continued, maybe not the things everyone wants, but it continues (yeah, yeah - go on about cookie cutter carny cheapos, you know you can't help yourself ). I guess I just can't understand (and maybe you aren't saying this) how a slowdown in growth can be equated to a fade in the Magic. Fact of the matter is, it would be impossible for WDW, or any theme park destination, to continue to grow at the rate WDW was in the 80's. Never could happen. Not feasable. But just because it didn't means the Magic wasn't the same anymore? I can't buy that one - but you are more than happy to keep trying to sell it .

I am not much of a debater (I'll leave that to the Barron's and the Scoop's). I was simply responding to Scoop's crazy claim that we'd be having these same type of discussions in 1980!!!

Yes, I am in Car#3. My move from Car#1 to #3 has NOTHING to do with a slowdown in groth at WDW. It has more to do with the shutting of attractions with no replacements (20k, skyway, keelboats, Timekeeper and COP being seasonal {since when does the season end in June anyway}, etc). Replacing attractions with less than equal replacements (see most of futureworld for examples) 1/2 day Parks (Studios, AK, DCA). Shortening of hours since 1998 then selling them back to you (E-Ride night)!!! .. I'll stop there.. I wont get into cheap and tacky.. thats already been hashed to death on this board already (and I 've made my point about it several times ).

All I hear now is that Disney cannot afford to do things like they used to. I would like to see hard evidence that all of the things they have cut have actually made them more profitable then in years past.