Much to your chagrin...

[hopemax]

I wouldn't go only because it's 3300 miles away and the only time I take "relaxing" vacations is for 3 or 4 day weekends, and that's too far to go for such a short period of time. If I'm going for a week or more, I like "commando" vacations.

If I lived close enough to drive to WDW in a day, or fly in about 2-3 hours, yes I would. Find a nice comfy chair in Wilderness Lodge, or a nice spot by the pool and start calling my DH Jeeves. "Jeeves, go get me my Mickey chocolates!"

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Well!! The twists and turns a thread takes on these boards!!! Don’t you just love it!!

First let me take care of some old business. The original point of the thread, or at least the little bit I interjected first. To Mr. Matt:

I understand perfectly what you are saying, I just disagree with the condition of the Wall. It's not crumbling.

Well, I don’t know how to not sound arrogant or at least superior. It’s kind of like telling your kids, “You’ll thank me for this someday.” But, and with all due respect and a twinkle in my eye, you didn’t see the wall when it was first built!!! WOW!!! It was pristine!!

Bstanley

This is something that continues to baffle me about WDW. There are many things to do there that have nothing to do with visiting the Theme Parks. But whenever you talk to folks about visiting WDW they only talk about visiting the Theme Parks.

I don’t think you’re getting the concept. The many things that are there to do TODAY, still have that Disney theme park stuff all over them. Or they are simply leased spaces in Downtown Disney. The Golf Resort was a totally different concept. It was for the ‘vacationer’ who’s main interest was golf. NOT a theme park or anything like it. And while I found the Golf Resort very well themed (in a particularly non-discript way) it was purposely NOT reminiscent of anything else Disney!!

A failed experiment? Maybe. Am I the only one in the world that liked it (and caught the concept)? Again, maybe. But I really think it was an honest try. And one that tried to capture a different market segment while not compromising the lofty Disney standards they had set for themselves. In other words, they weren’t simply pandering to the public in order to make a quick buck (i.e. Pop Century)!



And now for something completely different…..

My Favorite Duck! You really threw in a good one!! And one I had never considered before. Congratulations!! New conversation on the Rumor & News Board!!!

Question for that crew... If there were NO THEME PARKS would you still go to the Disney Resorts, deluxes or moderates?

Well, immediately I knew the answer. I really hadn’t thought about before, but as soon as the question was posed I knew, absolutely knew, what my answer would be.

Absolutely not. The resort is ancillary to the total experience. The are part of the whole (an important part) but without the theme parks would serve no function for me.

I couldn’t disagree more!!!! Now, don’t get me wrong. I LOVE the theme parks. But that’s not what draws me to Disney. And it took me quite a while (and many, many pages of long winded posts) to figure that out.

What I like about Disney is the way they do business!!! (or at least they way they used to do business) That ‘exceeding your expectations’ thing I’m always on about. And it doesn’t matter if it’s a theme park, water park, restaurant, mini golf or resort. They always (until recently) sprinkled it with liberal amounts of pixie dust that creates wonderful magic!! Back in the day (my kids saying) it was even more! Not only did they do that “Disney Touch” to everything offered, but the price was also substantially lower than you would expect! That was also part of the magic!! (for me at least)

So, YES, YES, and YES again!! I would stay there in a heartbeat!! Maybe not as often. Maybe not as obsessively. And lately that ‘urge’ would be waning in me even more than it is. But of course I would go!! Just the smell of the Polly is enough to do it for me. And if you throw in a couple of their patented CMs… Well…

… It just don’t get no better!!!

 

[Suzan]

Raidermatt, where did you see Lilo & Stitch? We will be arriving on June 21 when the movie opens. I was hoping they would have the characters somewhere on site so our DS can get a photo-op. Thanks

 

[raidermatt]

Last things first...

Suzan, Lilo and Stitch were in the same area as the queue for the Animation tour. If you are in the courtyard and are walking into the same breezeway as the Animation tour, you should see some blue Stitch footprints on the ground that lead right to them.

I believe Saturday was sort of a "soft opening" for them. We only knew about it because a CM had told us on Thursday that they would be there on Saturday. He said he had just heard an hour before. (He said Sunday was supposed to be the first day)

So they probably aren't so hard to find now. By the 21st, I'm sure it won't be hard to find them at all...

Lord Baron-

Well, I don’t know how to not sound arrogant or at least superior. It’s kind of like telling your kids, “You’ll thank me for this someday.” But, and with all due respect and a twinkle in my eye, you didn’t see the wall when it was first built!!! WOW!!! It was pristine!!

True, but I experienced the original Disneyland during this same timeframe. I'm pretty sure that was a Disney park back then...

For me, its sort of like hearing the story from your kindly Grandfather, about how he "built his character by carrying that block of ice uphill both ways in a blizzard everyday after school, and how I've got it easy now." Ya love him, but you're not about to strap the block of ice to your back and fly to Minnesota looking for the hill that never has a downslope...

If there were NO THEME PARKS would you still go to the Disney Resorts, deluxes or moderates?

Good question, Mr. Duck. For me, I'd say the answer would be I would visit subtantially less, and possibly not at all. Part of that is because I live in California, and that's a long way to go for only a resort/spa experience, no matter how magical the service.


Right now, my two favorite vacation destinations are WDW/DL and Hawaii. As wonderful as the Disney resorts are, I'd be hard-pressed to go there when Hawaii is roughly the same distance away, and has some wonderful resorts with great service and wonderful residents. I'm sure sitting at the Poly is great. I know walking the Boardwalk is... But sitting on a beach in Maui watching the sunset is still a rung up the ladder for me. Its the theme parks that take Disney to that level (and perhaps beyond...)

 

[airlarry!]

Dang it, Sir Baron, I thought this was one time we would disagree.

When you said you would go, I thought you were off your rocker. Then I thought, hmm, there is a burning desire for me to take the Disney Cruise (can't get my wife on a boat, however). Someday I will do it. There is no theme park on the DCL. So, ipso facto, I must want to go to a Disney Resort (hope that doesn't torture the hypo from The Duck) even without a theme park.

I want to do so, because friends have told me about the fantastic experience and service they had on the boats. Like a Disney vacation without the parks. Sounds great to me.

But, I have never even considered going to Vero or Hilton Head. Aren't these modern day versions of Sir Duck's hypothet? They are Disney resorts without the theme parks.

I will have to sit on the fence for a few days and think this very, very interesting question through. Hopefully soon, I will be brainwashed by Sir Baron and Sir Voice into the correct answer.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

True, but I experienced the original Disneyland during this same timeframe. I'm pretty sure that was a Disney park back then...

Touché, Sir Raider!! Absolutely! So why doesn’t the dumbing down of the experience not bother you. And I’m not talking about the rides! Although that’s indicative of the decline. (I’ll address that issue in the other thread) I’m talking about the outrageous price hikes, the cheap trinkets being sold everywhere you turn, the non-response to the overwhelming transportation problems, the decorations over theming, those obnoxious huge icons, the graveyard in EPCOT, nothing at being done to World Showcase, painters in the afternoon, deferred maintenance (especially at Disneyland!) overbuilding (at times seemingly at random) just to make a quick buck, the Swan, the Dolphin, the shuttering of resorts, Pop Century, no more Mickey head butter, no more after dinner chocolates, opening ½ parks, DCA, shutting down rides with no replacements, characeter greeting areas (YUCK!), Surprise mornings, no more EE, shorter hours, closing the parks on an event, bring out the vacuums five minutes after closing, the Main Street Shopping Mall, merchandise all the same throughout the entire complex, no more fife and drum corps, other live entertainment seriously cut back, the mixed up theme that is now called Adventureland, etc.

Now, I typed this as fast as I could. It just kinda flowed. I’m sure if we put our minds to it, and took a little time, we can all think of many, many more examples of how they are diminishing the SHOW. Go on. Give it a try. It’s kinda fun, in a sad sort of way. (What’s harder is coming up with the little touches they’ve added lately. You know, like the things in the pervious paragraph, only in reverse.)

Now, I know that an awful lot of the previous is terribly subjective. YES!! Many things on your list of negatives may not bother me at all. But guess what? I can still understand that it is a negative even if it doesn’t affect me directly. To me it points toward the direction their philosophy is going. And something you call positive may not really ‘float my boat’. But again, you gotta give them credit for trying! The only thing is, I can’t think of any. Maybe it’s my sullen mood. Or maybe it’s because I seem to be repeating myself. I don’t know. Can you offer up any little gems? Some little Disney “touches” that Disney has added lately?

For me, its sort of like hearing the story from your kindly Grandfather, about how he "built his character by carrying that block of ice uphill both ways in a blizzard everyday after school, and how I've got it easy now." Ya love him, but you're not about to strap the block of ice to your back and fly to Minnesota looking for the hill that never has a downslope...

Nothing to add. I just loved the way it was worded!!

Your Airness!

But, I have never even considered going to Vero or Hilton Head. Aren't these modern day versions of Sir Duck's hypothet? They are Disney resorts without the theme parks.

I have been to Vero several times. It is very, very nice. Yes it is Disney. Everything you would expect. And my brother-in-law loves Hilton Head. Again, Disney in every way.

 

[Planogirl]

If there were NO THEME PARKS would you still go to the Disney Resorts, deluxes or moderates?

I had to think about this one for a moment because like Sir Baron, Disney's way of doing business is a big part of what attracts me. However, I am a passionate traveler and I really think that I would prefer to try a REAL Polynesian Resort or a REAL Wilderness Lodge. The Disney resorts would still be wonderful but like so many of the others, I'm not the type to sit by a pool. I want to go out and explore, I want to have a blast! And that's what the theme parks provide.

Somehow I can't see myself wandering around Orlando the whole time while on vacation and if I visited Universal I might as well stay there.

Interesting question!

 

[airlarry!]

I see your point, Sir Baron. And now I think I am understanding your position on the resorts a little more (this goes back to topics we discussed last year on the failures/successes of the themes of the resorts, remember?)

I realize now that I would travel to Orlando to stay at the Wilderness or Poly or even the Contemp (with the monorail of course headed to Pleasure Island instead). I have friends that go to Vegas every year or so, and none of us gamble. We go for the outlandish resorts, or we head to the Gulf Coast for the golf, and the tours, and we look for nice places to stay...if it is an adult only trip--if its the kids, we look for bargains

So, while still understanding it is hypothetical and tough to answer, I think I would head to Lake Buena if I knew that there was a wonderfully themed place with Disney shows and hospitality and...magic.

But PopCentury? All-stars? I just can't see myself staying there just to stay there. Don't get me wrong. I've stayed there before, and I will again, but that has to do with balancing price of room versus cost of the whole Disney trip. But as a stand-alone? Puh-leaze. I want to hear from the regulars or new people---anyone at all---who would fly down to LBV and spend a week at the All-stars if there were no parks!

 

[DisneyKidds]

The Great Wall of China and WDW without theme parks. Amazing where these things go, and a lot of fun .

Did you all ever consider that 99.999% of the worlds population would consider us certifiable if they read some of these discussions. But they don't 'get it' so who cares......

A few thoughts.

Mr Baron -

So it got me to thinking (a dangerous thing in the best of times). When I (or any old-timer) posts that things are radically different today from the philosophy that they used to employ, what are your thoughts on the subject? Do you believe it? Do you totally disregard it?

I don't believe that the underlying 'philosophy' of WDW has changed radically. Radical is a strong word. I don't believe that the philosophy has gone from 'Let them eat cake' to 'Let them eat crap - they'll be happy with it'. I do, however, agree that the methods employed to try and maintain the goal of the underlying philosophy of providing a magical WDW experience (which you still get, and I'll stay away from the car hopping issue ) have changed somewhat. However, the world is a different place than it was in the 1970's, and such change should not be so surprising. Yes, 'cheaper' can be tagged to a number of additions and 'cost cutting' can be seen as motivation for some of the changes. However, 'cheaper' additions are better than none, and lest we not forget that there have been some incredible and expensive additions done very well. Saving money on some additions and instituting cost cutting measures are a fact of life. I'm sure I'm not the only stockholder that realizes the necessity. Yes, they can be annoying. However, I don't think they scratch the underlying magic.

There was a time when there were no chinks in the armor.

Did you borrow those rose colored spectacles from Mr. Franklin over in the American Adventure? I'm sure people had plenty of things to 'complain' about in the past - just no forum such as this to share in.

Many, many, many mistakes were made. Just mention the Garden Wings or The Golf Resort (which I still think was NOT a mistake) and you know what I mean. But those were mistakes!! Plain and simple. They were not motivated by greed or a spreadsheet.

Don't you think the Garden Wings were the ABSOLUTE cheapest way to add capacity to the CR? You agree they were a mistake. Could they have been done better had management at the time decided to spend a little more?

OK, so the Great Wall of Disney has a few chinks, but I don't see radical decay that threatens to collapse the whole enchilada.

The standard I measure by is the feeling I still get when I'm there, watching our kids (a new Disney generation) in wonder and amazement at all of what WDW is. I don't see any of that in jeopardy.

As for a WDW without theme parks, count me out. We are DVC owners. Each trip we spend more and more time enjoying the wonderful resorts. Heck, for the first time last trip we had an almost entirely 'resort' day. That trend will only continue. However, consider where WDW is - the middle of a swamp in a central Florida wasteland (sorry, not looking to offend any Floridians, but come on). There needs to be something else. Besides, most of the real magic is in the theme parks. As wonderful as the WDW resorts are, without the history, attractions, and magic in the parks, these resorts wouldn't compete for our vacation $$$$. There are so many other resorts that are just as wonderful, and they sit next to a beach, a historic site, a national landmark, in a different country, yada, yada, yada....

 

[Bob O]

I would agree with Planogirl. If their were no theme parks i would perfer to see the real thing rather than a version that never really existed which is at wdw.
I love the polyensian but im sure the real thing would be much different than the wdw version.
I would visit every now and then but couldnt see having the whole family travel across the country to stay in a resort hotel, their would have to be something else to entice my, be it a theme park or something historical that interests me. Now put a disney hotel in the Wash DC/Viriginia area where i could enjoy the resort and see things that interest me it would be worth it, bit not to just stay at a resort.
And i couldnt agree more with DVC"s list below of disney's problems. The dumbing down does bother me and im fearful it will get alot worse before it gets better! Take out one or two it may not be a big deal, but add them all together and it is IMHO.

 

[DisDuck]

I think I got my point across quite well. All the complaining about the Resorts not being what they once were seems to be made in relation to the Theme Parks. No matter how 'Disney' the resorts are if they were stand-alone not much different than any other resort-only destination.

Bottom line it is the THEME PARKS that attract the majority of us and will continue to do so. Therefore, AS or PC is just another means to stay onsite instead of off-site and yet make the experience cost effective for more people. Nothing wrong with that.

airlarry.. you would love the Disney Cruise but I would not compare to WDW resorts as the ship is not just a destination but takes you to other destinations. More like being at WDW on a floating deluxe that transports you from one theme park to another.

raider.. been to Maui (in my youth - 1984) and loved it. Yes, if choice was Poly with no Parks or Maui.. Maui wins hands-down.

 

[raidermatt]

Baron, that's quite a list. And I do understand that things affect people in different ways, so I don't discount something just becuase I didn't really care about it.

For instance, EE/Surprise mornings were not a benefit for us. We just don't get up and going that early. But I get the point that others loved it. However, there are gazillions of things that could be done that some people would love. Some things are going to be tried and taken back. Certainly that's better than just not trying them at all... To use an older example, Disneyland used to be closed on Mondays. True the company's resources were different, but clearly this was a financial decision that negatively impacted a lot of uneducated or time-limited Magic seekers.

But some of the things you mentioned as negatives are so subjective, they are positives to others. Merchandise and trinkets is great for some. I LIKE having a shop after many of the attractions. I don't have to buy, but sometimes I WANT to.

And some things are just inevitable. Shuttering resorts, for example. If Disneyland could be closed on Mondays, why can't a resort be temporarily closed if bookings are way down?

Character greeting areas? I LIKE knowing where we can find characters. While at Disneyland last August, we saw characters randomly interspersed through the park, mainly in the Plaza area. While admittedly there are some plusses to this, the drawbacks of actually trying to find a way for my son to actually meet these characters far outweighed the positives. People are just too rude. Maybe that wasn't always the case, but it sure is now.

Along those same lines, we found the Character Caravan to be a pleasant addition. It gave our son a chance to meet some characters in an air-conditioned, non-frenzied environment. This is a GOOD thing.

AK is a beautiful park, and it is only incomplete if you view it as the other three parks are viewed, i.e. a place for active attractions. AK has plenty to do, its just that a lot of it is experienced in a different way than at other parks. Maybe that was a mistake, but its not a lack of effort.

The castle show in MK is a wonderful touch and (I believe) fairly new.

FastPass is an AWESOME addition. I know, there's all kind of conspiracy theories about the true motivation, but the bottom line for the guest is that they get to experience more attractions aand avoid the frustration of long lines. (In someways, even more of a benefit than lengthening hours...)

AK CMs park our stroller for us. I know, its an efficiency thing for them, but it makes things easier for us, so its a nice touch.

DCA is a problem, but its easily avoided and I'm still hopeful they will learn from their mistake. It seems that some will only be satisfied with public floggings and tearful confessions, a la Tammy Fae Baker. I will wait until I see Flik's Fair and the new ToT for myself before saying whehter they are going in the right direction.

But again, that's not to say there aren't some things that bother me. The motorized sweepers are one of them. (I even saw one BEFORE closing). Delayed maintenance is another. And I agree that this makes the Wall less than pristine. But its just not enough to make me say the place is going down the tubes.

 

[Bstanley]

Hear, hear, RaiderMatt!

Spot on! Totally agree.

 

[Another Voice]

I had started writing all about how utterly wrong this whole “The Magic is a Wall” thought is. Entertainment isn’t a wall – entertainment is an illusion. It has no physical form to stand up against the elements. The Magic is only a thought, a wisp that’s ever changing and moving. A Wall is solid and firm, there are rules for its construction and formulas to ensure that it stands. There are no laws of engineering to guarantee that a piece of entertainment turns out “good”.

Then I thought, there is a rule that does work – one that seems to be at the center of a lot of the discussions here. It’s a rather simple rule, somewhat cynical, but always applicable:

No matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to like it. And no matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to hate it. Success is measured by what the third in the middle think – and how many people you get to show up in the first place.

I will be the first to admit that I do not see WDW in the same way that everyone else around here sees the place. I do not sit back and wonder how I see the show; I’ve spent far too many years worrying about how others see the show.

The real question for me is how hard is The Company now working to please the middle third and to get more people to the show? Yes, canceling early entry my not affect a lot of people (probably about a third) – but what about the people that it does affect. And are more people likely to show up with or without that “benefit”?

From my perspective, I don’t see WDW as suddenly not worth the visit, but I do see that the company is slackening its efforts to please the middle third. Worse, I see little effort put into convincing more people to show up. All I see are efforts to reduce the show until it comfortable fits the third who will like it no matter what.


P.S. – Disneyland was closed on Mondays and Tuesday during the off season up due to attendance levels. It was always considered a day park. Most of its attendance was local and for visitors it was a single stop on a larger tour of Southern California.

At WDW, the parks are considered the sole reason why people travel to the resort. They are the primary attraction and are the focal point of the guests’ visit. They were also considered the magnet to “stick” the guests on property for their entire stay. Arguing that because Disneyland was closed two days a week for four months decades ago somehow is akin to slashing current WDW park hours is really stretching it.

 

[DisneyKidds]

So before long the third of us in Car #1 will have the entire place to ourselves . I guess hours won't be an issue at that point.

 

[PKS44]

DisneyKidds wrote:

I don't believe that the underlying 'philosophy' of WDW has changed radically. Radical is a strong word. I don't believe that the philosophy has gone from 'Let them eat cake' to 'Let them eat crap - they'll be happy with it'. I do, however, agree that the methods employed to try and maintain the goal of the underlying philosophy of providing a magical WDW experience (which you still get, and I'll stay away from the car hopping issue ) have changed somewhat. However, the world is a different place than it was in the 1970's, and such change should not be so surprising. Yes, 'cheaper' can be tagged to a number of additions and 'cost cutting' can be seen as motivation for some of the changes. However, 'cheaper' additions are better than none, and lest we not forget that there have been some incredible and expensive additions done very well. Saving money on some additions and instituting cost cutting measures are a fact of life. I'm sure I'm not the only stockholder that realizes the necessity. Yes, they can be annoying. However, I don't think they scratch the underlying magic.

No, I think the goals have changed...and I think A-V is on to something with the analogy to smoke...the goal used to be to create this magical smoke...they made a fire and sure it produced heat (in this metaphor heat is the profits) but the goal was making the smoke...Now they want to see more heat from the fire and the goal is the financial bottom line..., so what if the fire does not make as much magical smoke---and this not only scratches the underlying magic eventually it kills it-if the goal of the workers is to make the company more money- you kill the spirit...the magic of working for Disney was that they empowered their employees to make magic not quotas...that seems changed...try to make the bottom line bigger by making that product cheaper and you alienate your customers but more importantly destroy the spirit of your workforce....it is a deadman's spiral--unhappy unmotivated soulless workers make lousy products that people won't buy--stockholders and mangement are too shortsighted if they are focused on the bottom line-the focus of long term successful companies is to make a great, quality product, the bottom takes care of itself in those situations..(American car companies have yet to learn this lesson, the Japanese car makers and theme park operators still seem to get it. That is why Toyota makes the # 1 car in America and why TokyoDisneySeas is a huge success and why Tokyo Disneyland is the most visited theme park in the world-and why American Disney park attendence is falling)--

Paul

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Most of the time I quote everyone under the sun except my liege, Lord Voice. (except to say bravo, or ditto) But there are a couple of things in his most recent post that I felt needed a bit of exploring. Kind of “exploring the subtleties of car #3 passengers” (on PBS tonight!) And there’s a good possibility that it will be as boring as it sounds. If it is, I’m sorry. Just skip it and I’ll try not to do it again!!

I had started writing all about how utterly wrong this whole “The Magic is a Wall” thought is. Entertainment isn’t a wall

AV, I’m a little surprised. I don’t think we were talking about magic = ‘something physical’. At least I wasn’t (but it wouldn’t be the first time I totally missed the point of the conversation). I was simply waxing metaphorically. Comparing the Disney way of doing business (i.e. what they gave their patrons) in some sort of image. Some image that those car #1 people could readily see. A newly constructed wall, bricks (or stones) aligned perfectly, mortar joints equal and trim. Compared with today’s wall of China (of which we have all seen pictures). To me that is what Disney is. The wall is still standing (that’s why I still go) but it has seen better days!!!

Now what you say next is very, very interesting, especially to someone not in the business. And to me it makes perfect sense.

No matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to like it. And no matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to hate it.

Let’s take a closer look. This looks simply fascinating!! First you have, “No matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to like it”. Hmmm. Sound the fine occupants of car #1!!! Next you have: “no matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to hate it”. Well, I’d say those are the people who have never even considered visiting this site! And then you say, “Success is measured by what the third in the middle think.” Sounds like the "right thinking" car #2 & 3 kind of people to me!!!!

I will be the first to admit that I do not see WDW in the same way that everyone else around here sees the place. I do not sit back and wonder how I see the show; I’ve spent far too many years worrying about how others see the show.

That is why I respect your opinion!! It is why I am constantly amazed how you find that little nuance within a post that blew right past me (and apparently every other car #3 rider). But at the same time I am constantly baffled as to why our definition of “magic” never really jells. We seem to be on the same page on nearly every other issue regarding Disney, except this one. And that may be the reason why. You created it, or at least fussed about for years. I, on the other hand, never even considered it consciously. It just kinda washed over me, filling me with good thoughts and warm feelings. You, and your ilk, evidently did a great job. I wasn’t aware of all the hard work that went into a thing like Disney. I just liked it!!! I liked it a lot!!!

And then I started to see some very strange things. This magical place was a business!! I had never realized it before. It was just fun! But some (not much at all) but some of the ‘magic’ started to wear a little thin and I started to see the man behind the curtain. And then the boards came along and nothing has been the same in my addled little ‘Disney’ brain again!!! So I think I understand why we look at ‘Magic” a little differently.

It reminds me of when I owned a comedy show. Standup comedians (some good and some bad) would go on 6 nights a week in my club. When I first entered the business I used to laugh and laugh at the good ones. But over time, night after night, for years, you lose your desire to laugh. You still have a great appreciation for a good joke, but you don’t laugh at the punch line anymore. Instead you widen your eyes a little and say, “Oh! Great line!!!” In full admiration! If you ever get a chance to hang around with stand up comedians just watch. The lines are flowing fast and furious. Each topping the other. But there’s hardly any laughter. Just judgment as to the “goodness” of the punch lines!! Anyway… I digress!!

From my perspective, I don’t see WDW as suddenly not worth the visit, but I do see that the company is slackening its efforts to please the middle third. Worse, I see little effort put into convincing more people to show up. All I see are efforts to reduce the show until it comfortable fits the third who will like it no matter what.

OK!!! That’s more like it!! We’re back in lockstep again!!!!

Arguing that because Disneyland was closed two days a week for four months decades ago somehow is akin to slashing current WDW park hours is really stretching it.

Go easy on them. My lord!! For they have little else to hang their hat on!!!

 

[airlarry!]

After a good look at Lord Voice, Sir Baron, and M. Scoop's posts, I now understand why we all have fun going 'round and 'round with every topic.

M. Scoop sees his place in the caravan as one who still enjoys going to WDW, still looks forward to his trips, and so must be in Car #1. If it gets to where he doesn't look forward to those trips, then he feels he will be moving to Car #3. He wonders why Car #3 people go...check this out:

It's just that, for us at least, the good we receive still overwhelmingly outweighs the bad. It's really that simple for us. ... And, today, we cannot imagine many other places where we can relax together and create living pictures than at WDW. ... If the team gave up and cashed it in like Huizenga did with the Marlins, well, yes, we would probably say goodbye.

But M. Scoop, the Car#3s, as we have patiently explained, still enjoy going to WDW. We still believe that the good outweighs the bad at WDW. We still plan our next trips with excitement and fervor. We still look forward to seeing those purple signs.

The difference is that we worry about the future. We worry that sometime down the road, one year, five years, 20 years, the good won't outweigh the bad. It's the Car 4 people that think the magic is gone forever, that the good doesn't outweigh the bad. Not us. We worry 'bout the changes we see and what they portend.

I hope this isn't too obvious. It seems that the Car #1s have a different perception of our love for Disney then the reality.

Aloud I wonder what these boards would have been like had this technology existed on in 1980?

I know where you are going Scoop with this take, and it seems to make sense, but remember that Disney is the kind of company that cannot sit on its laurels. It is not like a soft drink company that doesn't want to mess with the taste of the drink. It is an entertainment company that constantly has to *exceed* the previous bar. So there may well have been naysayers in 1980 or even 1960 talking about the 'bad' decisions or the loss of magic. But that isn't relevant, in that the company will always be scrutinized not on what it did yesterday, but on what it will do tomorrow.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Lets see if we can pull some of this together (or, lets see if I can make an entire post out of other people's posts ).

And then I started to see some very strange things. This magical place was a business!! I had never realized it before. It was just fun! But some (not much at all) but some of the ‘magic’ started to wear a little thin and I started to see the man behind the curtain. And then the boards came along and nothing has been the same in my addled little ‘Disney’ brain again!!! So I think I understand why we look at ‘Magic” a little differently.

Always has been, always will be - and it still is just fun. You look at the 'Magic' differently, but that implies that it is still there, just as it was, only perceived in another way.

I, on the other hand, never even considered it consciously. It just kinda washed over me, filling me with good thoughts and warm feelings. You, and your ilk, evidently did a great job. I wasn’t aware of all the hard work that went into a thing like Disney. I just liked it!!! I liked it a lot!!!

And you still do - notwithstanding the fact that there are now avenues for Car #2's and 3's (be they 'right thinkers' or 'wrong thinkers') to get together and commiserate over the loss of this and that. But there have always been 'losses' of one sort or another.

I just don't see that with WDW. I have seen some misguided efforts but I don't think such misguided efforts are alone unique to this particular regime. I think it's happened to every regime. Therefore, today's concern should be put in perspective.

Is this is a unique ability (putting things in perspective) among the Car #1 passengers? No. The passengers in the other cars used to be able to do this, they have just gotten rusty.

Aloud I wonder what these boards would have been like had this technology existed on in 1980?

Probably no different than today.

Here, here!!!

We place incredible value on the time we get to spend together as a family on vacation. And, today, we cannot imagine many other places where we can relax together and create living pictures than at WDW.

And this is what we all do, regardless of what car we happen to be riding in. See, we all can get along .

I submit this to be pondered regarding the various cars on the Disney highway and the strength of the Magic. All Car #2 and 3 passenegrs are really closet Car #1 folks who, deep in their hearts (which one day will grow like the Grinch's when things 'click') realize that the WDW magic is as strong, if not stronger than it ever has been. I say this because, despite the loss of this and that, there is nothing that will keep you away. I infer that this means the Magic you still experience when you are in the World is so strong that it makes all those other cares and concerns melt away. You have to admit, that is pretty strong Magic.

Yeah, things could be better. This can be said of most anything in the real world, not just the Disney World. However, that doesn't change the Magic.

 

[DisDuck]

Hey scoop leave some land for me and my crew (all 6 of us someday, the 3 wayward sheep will fall back into the fold).

I know where you are coming from scoop on vacation. I learned some interesting lessons these past 2 years. Life/Health is vunerable so enjoy each day. Therefore, WDW is my enjoyment. I go to be young again and I stay off-site (so I am not a total immersion guy).

To my Car#3's you are now sounding more like #2's, if I remember the definitions correctly.