More updated Fastpass+ information

[Wood Nymph]

So far Disney has plans to introduce a 3 FP+ per person per day system. That evens the playing field, making everyone who has a ticket, whether it is annual pass, discount, child or adult, have just as many rides as any other guest. There hasn't been anything from Disney indicating that there is any other plan right now, is there? Isn't the idea of more fast passes for deluxe resort guests something that is pure speculation?

 

[Brian Noble]

Again, Universal sells the expedited tickets as an add on to the regular admission ticket. Meaning everyone has the same opportunity to get it if they so choose. Connecting expedited or fast pass line access to those who stay in deluxe resorts means not everyone has access.

Wait. What makes Deluxe rooms materially different from Express Passes? Because the rooms are limited, or because they are too expensive?

Limited rooms is not a differentiator: Universal sells a limited number of express passes. In practice, they rarely if ever sell out, because they just jack up the price when demand goes up to convince people less eager to get them to skip them. But, there is a limit.

Likewise, that the rooms are more expensive is also not a differentiator. For you, a Deluxe room might be financially impossible, but the Express Pass might not be. However, I absolutely guarantee you that there are people who can afford a Universal ticket, but can't afford Express Pass as well---especially during peak periods, when the Express Pass costs as much or more than the ticket does.

 

[Turn the Page]

Agreed. And it does not have a large effect because they are limited in number. WDW just has too many deluxe level guests for it to be pulled off without a hitch under the theory we currently are discussing. If it was just concierge level, I probably wouldn't be bothered at all, honestly. That is a much smaller and less intimidating number!

Yeah, I could probably agree with that. Even if deluxe resort guests got say 2 more FPs a day. I wouldn't particularly like it but I could agree to it. That won't have much of an impact on everybody else's expereince

What would start really ticking me, and I suspect a lot of other people off, is if all deluxe resort guests start getting unlimited fast passes. There is no way that is not going to have a major impact on everyone else.

 

[Turn the Page]

Wait. What makes Deluxe rooms materially different from Express Passes? Because the rooms are limited, or because they are too expensive?

Limited rooms is not a differentiator: Universal sells a limited number of express passes. In practice, they rarely if ever sell out, because they just jack up the price when demand goes up to convince people less eager to get them to skip them. But, there is a limit.

Likewise, that the rooms are more expensive is also not a differentiator. For you, a Deluxe room might be financially impossible, but the Express Pass might not be. However, I absolutely guarantee you that there are people who can afford a Universal ticket, but can't afford Express Pass as well---especially during peak periods, when the Express Pass costs as much or more than the ticket does.

The difference is the express pass unviersal sells is open to everyone should they choose to buy it. In off peak seasons it is likely not prohibitively expensive. The idea behind allowing unlimited express access to those staying in deluxe resorts is that it is not open to everyone. Not everyone has equal access to this perk. Spending $34 or $100 to get an express pass is quite different from spending an additional $3000 to get a nicer room. It's unequal access that is the issue.

 

[AThrillingChase]

So far Disney has plans to introduce a 3 FP+ per person per day system. That evens the playing field, making everyone who has a ticket, whether it is annual pass, discount, child or adult, have just as many rides as any other guest. There hasn't been anything from Disney indicating that there is any other plan right now, is there? Isn't the idea of more fast passes for deluxe resort guests something that is pure speculation?

Correct. This is 100% just all of us thinking too much! What can I say, I have a trip in a month and a half and I am just making myself nervous! I think I may just slide in before any magic bands start popping up though.

And I dont know about any of you, but I do not buy souveniers at amusement parks at all. Only Disney parks! So people having more spare time to shop probably helps them more than most parks. I know my credit card hurts after because its, just...it is a lot. Lol. I think my popcorn and bucket at disney sea was somewhere around 35-40 bucks. Sigh. I still love it.

 

[Brian Noble]

And it does not have a large effect because they are limited in number. WDW just has too many deluxe level guests for it to be pulled off without a hitch under the theory we currently are discussing.

You could imagine giving each Deluxe guest one more FP+ per day---under the best guess at park capacity, a 3FP+/person limit leaves enough spare capacity to play with. You could even remove some of the grouping restrictions---so all three FP+ reservations on headliners rather than only one or two. But, you probably could not give them carte blanche access to all attractions, true.

I believe the real answer is in Walt Disney's intention for the parks to be about people; about families; about people of all ages being able to have fun - together.

Don't kid yourself. Any credible biography of Walt makes it clear that he was after a profit, and that he wasn't worried about universal access so much as synergy across the park, the movie studio, and the merchandise. The guy practically invented it. Start with Neal Gabler's book for an even-handed take. The parks were never cheap (in a relative sense), and in the very beginning there absolutely *was* differential access, because Walt was the guy who invented the A-E ticket system, and those willing to spend more could buy more E tickets. Walt didn't want you and I to be happy, necessarily. He wanted to sell happiness at a profit.

So far Disney has plans to introduce a 3 FP+ per person per day system. That evens the playing field, making everyone who has a ticket, whether it is annual pass, discount, child or adult, have just as many rides as any other guest. There hasn't been anything from Disney indicating that there is any other plan right now, is there? Isn't the idea of more fast passes for deluxe resort guests something that is pure speculation?

No, this is all pure speculation. In fact, Nick Franklin, the VP of NextGen, has stated in an interview that access will not depend on the resort category in which you stay.

My concern was solely where I pay the same ticket price, but allll those deluxe guests getting in the FP line have a big effect on SB wait times, effectively making me pay the same for less attraction time.

Here's the thing: all of the other US amusement park operators---all of them---do this already. They charge everyone the same price for tickets, but they also sell expedited access to attractions in some form or other. They've been doing it for years, and it works for them. Yes, some guests do grumble, and maybe a few even decide they won't come back. But, the loss of revenue from those people has been more than made up by the extra revenue from guests willing to pay more for shorter waits. It's a settled issue.

I suppose you could argue that every single one of these operators has rocks for brains and is actually losing money overall by selling such access, but it doesn't seem very likely, does it?

 

[FortForever]

my post count would only be in the double-digits if everyone actually UNDERSTOOD those things.

True

I'll admit that I'm anxious (in a negative way) about this new system.

However, trying to stay positive that this turns out to be a change for the better.

These threads stress me out but, like a train wreck, I can't look away.

Carry on ...

Sent from my SCH-S950C using DISBoards

 

[Robo]

Here's the thing: all of the other US amusement park operators---all of them---do this already.

You actually came to a debate using the statement, "all of them?"

 

[Brian Noble]

The difference is the express pass unviersal sells is open to everyone should they choose to buy it. In off peak seasons it is likely not prohibitively expensive. The idea behind allowing unlimited express access to those staying in deluxe resorts is that it is not open to everyone. Not everyone has equal access to this perk. Spending $34 or $100 to get an express pass is quite different from spending an additional $3000 to get a nicer room. It's unequal access that is the issue.

Correction: Express Pass is open to everyone should they choose to buy it *and* they can afford it. Likewise, a Deluxe room is open to everyone should they choose to pay for it *and* they can afford it.

The only difference is that more people could probably afford the express pass than the Deluxe room. What's more, it's $34 or $100 per person per day---so for a length of stay comparable to that extra $3000, for a family of four, the total price for the two is probably closer than you think.

But, the dollar values don't matter at all, the principle is the same whether it is $1 for shorter lines or $10,000. Some people can afford the $1, some can't. Fewer people can afford (or will choose to spend) the $10,000, but some can and will.

Instead, what it sounds like you are saying is "I can imagine paying for Universal Express, but I can't imagine paying Deluxe room rates." That's not the same as "I am forbidden from staying in a Deluxe." You could if you wanted to---it might take you a while to save up to do it (I was a graduate student for seven years; I know!) but you could do it if you decided it was important.

 

[AThrillingChase]

I couldnt quote just that last portion on my ipad, but brian noble I agree with you on most points. But that last quote of mine was out of context, so to be clear, it was in relation to blanket extra FP for all those high numbers of deluxe resort guests, not to people buying FP privileges separately that are limited such as cedar fair implements.

 

[Turn the Page]

Here's the thing: all of the other US amusement park operators---all of them---do this already. They charge everyone the same price for tickets, but they also sell expedited access to attractions in some form or other. They've been doing it for years, and it works for them. Yes, some guests do grumble, and maybe a few even decide they won't come back. But, the loss of revenue from those people has been more than made up by the extra revenue from guests willing to pay more for shorter waits. It's a settled issue.

I suppose you could argue that every single one of these operators has rocks for brains and is actually losing money overall by selling such access, but it doesn't seem very likely, does it?

Nah, I don't think they have rocks for brains. I do think it's a despicable practice and I like to have faith that Disney holds itself above such nonsense. Of course, they are in business to make a profit but it's not as if they are hurting for cash. Am I naive? Probably. But I prefer to believe that in at least one place on earth we are all treated the same and have the same opportunities, more or less.

I never liked Cedar Point or Universal for a few reasons. One of the reasons is I don't like really big roller coasters and I always appreciated that Disney doesn't have any rides I won't go on. I haven't been on RRNC yet so that may change in a few weeks. Basically, I just always felt I got more value for my money, well ok, my parents money because I haven't been since I was in high school, at Disney than anywhere else. Plus, I think the themes and atmosphere are all just done much better at Disney than Cedar Point and Universal, with the possible exception of WWHP which I would love to experience. However, the practice of selling express passes makes me want to visit these other parks even less.

 

[Karen Elaine]

I wanted to make a comment about how many people are saying that all this is speculation and we need to wait and see. Actually Disney has already worked out terms and conditions for at least some of what the new FP+ will be. You can find this on the Disney World website by scrolling down to the bottom of the page and clicking on "Disney Park Experience Terms and Conditions." Under "Disney Fastpass+ Service" you will see that yes, we will only be able to get fp's for one park each day and you can't fp the same attraction twice. So no more grabbing another fp for buzz to try to beat my sons score. Also if you scroll down to "Converting to Paperless Tickets" you will read that if you opt into the My Magic+, you will not be able to access the traditional fp system. So for those of us who have been hoping we might be able to use both systems, well looks like we are out of luck - at least for now.

I also wanted to comment on wait times in standby lines - and forgive me if someone already pointed this out and I missed it - with all the money Disney has been putting into new interactive standyby lines, doesn't it seem to indicate that they are anticipating more people waiting in these lines and they are looking for ways to keep us happy while we wait? Unfortunately, I am one of those people who have been spoiled by the fp system, and there is no entertainment value they can add to those lines that will make me happy to be there! Well... if they put me in a recliner while someone rubbed my feet, then maybe.

 

[Turn the Page]

Correction: Express Pass is open to everyone should they choose to buy it *and* they can afford it. Likewise, a Deluxe room is open to everyone should they choose to pay for it *and* they can afford it.

The only difference is that more people could probably afford the express pass than the Deluxe room. What's more, it's $34 or $100 per person per day---so for a length of stay comparable to that extra $3000, for a family of four, the total price for the two is probably closer than you think.

But, the dollar values don't matter at all, the principle is the same whether it is $1 for shorter lines or $10,000. Some people can afford the $1, some can't. Fewer people can afford (or will choose to spend) the $10,000, but some can and will.

Instead, what it sounds like you are saying is "I can imagine paying for Universal Express, but I can't imagine paying Deluxe room rates." That's not the same as "I am forbidden from staying in a Deluxe." You could if you wanted to---it might take you a while to save up to do it (I was a graduate student for seven years; I know!) but you could do it if you decided it was important.

The fundamental thing we are disagreeing on is whether the resorts and parks are connected or separate. While they are connected in the sense that they are owned by Disney they are separate entities. And spending more money at one shouldn't get you extra perks at the other.

And your argument that everyone has access to deluxe resorts is like saying everyone has access to a Ferrari. It's just not true.

And yes, there is a difference in the access people have to a $35 express pass and an upgrade to a deluxe level hotel stay. But, like I said earlier, I think both practices are despicable. I like how Disney has been doing it the last 15 years or so. Fast passes are free to everyone, if they choose to use them, fine, if not, that's fine too. But everyone has the same opportunity.

 

[Brian Noble]

You actually came to a debate using the statement, "all of them?"

Which major operator doesn't?

Universal: Express (and on-site guests get Express Plus)
Sea World/Busch: QuickQueue.
Six Flags: Flash Pass.
Herschend: Q2Q
Cedar Fair: Fast Lane.

Cedar Fair was the last holdout, but that changed when Matt Ouiment replaced the more conservative Dick Kinzel as the CEO. You may remember Matt: he was the Disneyland president during the 50th Anniversary.

I suppose you can argue that Herschend isn't major---they only have three amusement parks and one or two water parks. So maybe they don't belong on the list.

The largest operator of domestic parks that I can think of that hasn't gone this route is Parques Reunidos. They manage Kennywood, Lake Compounce and a few other small parks, mostly in the mid-atlantic---the bulk of their properties are in Europe. As far as I know, they have not offered these sorts of products at any of their parks, but Lo-Q announced a deal this past fall for an "unnamed US operator". Everyone else already has their own system, so if it isn't Parques Reunidos, I'm not sure who it is.

The "ex-Six Flags" parks (Darien Lake, Worlds of Adventure, Wild Waves, Elitch Gardens, and a few others) mostly used to have Flash Pass, but may no longer. One or two of them are under Parques Reunidos management, some of them are independent, and some no longer exist (New Orleans and Gurnee, OH).

The only other major operators in terms of total attendance---Merlin and Compagnie des Alpes---don't have any US parks as far as I know.

(Edited to add: I just thought of who the Lo-Q deal might be with: Legoland.)

 

[Rosanne]

You could imagine giving each Deluxe guest one more FP+ per day---under the best guess at park capacity, a 3FP+/person limit leaves enough spare capacity to play with. You could even remove some of the grouping restrictions---so all three FP+ reservations on headliners rather than only one or two. But, you probably could not give them carte blanche access to all attractions, true.


Don't kid yourself. Any credible biography of Walt makes it clear that he was after a profit, and that he wasn't worried about universal access so much as synergy across the park, the movie studio, and the merchandise. The guy practically invented it. Start with Neal Gabler's book for an even-handed take. The parks were never cheap (in a relative sense), and in the very beginning there absolutely *was* differential access, because Walt was the guy who invented the A-E ticket system, and those willing to spend more could buy more E tickets. Walt didn't want you and I to be happy, necessarily. He wanted to sell happiness at a profit.


No, this is all pure speculation. In fact, Nick Franklin, the VP of NextGen, has stated in an interview that access will not depend on the resort category in which you stay.


Here's the thing: all of the other US amusement park operators---all of them---do this already. They charge everyone the same price for tickets, but they also sell expedited access to attractions in some form or other. They've been doing it for years, and it works for them. Yes, some guests do grumble, and maybe a few even decide they won't come back. But, the loss of revenue from those people has been more than made up by the extra revenue from guests willing to pay more for shorter waits. It's a settled issue.

I suppose you could argue that every single one of these operators has rocks for brains and is actually losing money overall by selling such access, but it doesn't seem very likely, does it?

Anecdotally, I have been to Dollywood once. They did that selling FOTL type thing in addition to the ticket price. That was the first time I was aware of such a thing. I'm such a big Disney fan I pretty much spend all theme park dollars there. I had bought our theme park tickets in advance. We arrived the next morning and that's when I realized we were going to have a croppy theme park experience unless we shelled out another $$ each. That was not what I planned for so we did not. We did, in fact have a croppy theme park experience because basically our admission price paid for the costs of keeping the park running, not for us to actually ride rides. We could easily buy season passes to Dollywood but it left a bad taste in my mouth. If you can't have a decent park experience without shelling out more money than the ticket price, it smells like scam to me.

Fast forward to our Universal experience where my sister had bought us tickets. Again, it was last minute and we did not know about the FOTL thing. We spent about 8 hours in the park and rode 4 rides, none of them headliners. Except for 20 minutes or so to grab a burger we were in lines for those four mediocre rides while we watched FOTL people ride over and over. Again, our admission price did not pay for a decent park experience. We were paying for the upkeep of the park for the people that really mattered... those staying on-site. We will not be returning to these parks either.

So... if this FP+ is equal we might not like it but we will likely still come. If they go to this FOTL ride-over-and over for deluxe guests then once again we will not pay admission price to cover the costs of running the parks just to have a croppy theme park experience.

It's not a matter of whether or not we could pay for deluxe. If we went less often, I'm sure we could. However, what would really be happening is that those without the $$$ to pay deluxe would be paying for the upkeep of the park, not for a pleasant park experience for themselves.

If Disney becomes that, then it wouldn't be the kind of place I'd want to visit. A little too Brave New World for me.

 

[Turn the Page]

Anecdotally, I have been to Dollywood once. They did that selling FOTL type thing in addition to the ticket price. That was the first time I was aware of such a thing. I'm such a big Disney fan I pretty much spend all theme park dollars there. I had bought our theme park tickets in advance. We arrived the next morning and that's when I realized we were going to have a croppy theme park experience unless we shelled out another $$ each. That was not what I planned for so we did not. We did, in fact have a croppy theme park experience because basically our admission price paid for the costs of keeping the park running, not for us to actually ride rides. We could easily buy season passes to Dollywood but it left a bad taste in my mouth. If you can't have a decent park experience without shelling out more money than the ticket price, it smells like scam to me.

Fast forward to our Universal experience where my sister had bought us tickets. Again, it was last minute and we did not know about the FOTL thing. We spent about 8 hours in the park and rode 4 rides, none of them headliners. Except for 20 minutes or so to grab a burger we were in lines for those four mediocre rides while we watched FOTL people ride over and over. Again, our admission price did not pay for a decent park experience. We were paying for the upkeep of the park for the people that really mattered... those staying on-site. We will not be returning to these parks either.

So... if this FP+ is equal we might not like it but we will likely still come. If they go to this FOTL ride-over-and over for deluxe guests then once again we will not pay admission price to cover the costs of running the parks just to have a croppy theme park experience.

It's not a matter of whether or not we could pay for deluxe. If we went less often, I'm sure we could. However, what would really be happening is that those without the $$$ to pay deluxe would be paying for the upkeep of the park, not for a pleasant park experience for themselves.

If Disney becomes that, then it wouldn't be the kind of place I'd want to visit. A little too Brave New World for me.

Well said. And much better stated than the drivel I was producing.

 

[Rosanne]

Well said. And much better stated than the drivel I was producing.

I thought your "drivel" was heart-felt and spectacular!

 

[2Tiggies]

Well said. And much better stated than the drivel I was producing.

Actually you've made some very good points (they are good because I agree with them ) Seriously though, I think you and I are on the same page here with the parks vs resorts. To some it's all just Disney. In this discussion, we see them as separate elements that are combined by the guest according to their needs, preferences and budget. I also felt like I wasn't getting my point across a few pages ago, but you've been quite consistent and clear in your position on the whole thing

 

[Brian Noble]

The fundamental thing we are disagreeing on is whether the resorts and parks are connected or separate. While they are connected in the sense that they are owned by Disney they are separate entities. And spending more money at one shouldn't get you extra perks at the other.

Disney breaks up things by divisions. And Parks & Resorts is the name of one of those divisions. That indicates to me that they aren't particularly separate. Would it be better if they just charged for extra FP+ reservations directly? That avoids the "separation problem."

I think the themes and atmosphere are all just done much better at Disney than Cedar Point and Universal, with the possible exception of WWHP which I would love to experience.

Cedar Point is very explicitly an amusement park, not a theme park. They have a few things with light theme to them (Maverick comes to mind) but mostly the rides *are* the atmosphere. They are almost all designed so that they interact with the midways directly. The addition for 2013, GateKeeper, is probably the best example---it runs directly *through* the park entrance. That's certainly not everyone's cup of tea, but if you enjoy thrill rides---and I do---then Cedar Point is just about Mecca. One thing I think Cedar Point has done well over the last few years in terms of atmosphere is better connect the lake and the bay to the park. Before GateKeeper there was a big enclosed building on that Midway blocking the views of the beach, but now it is quite open. And Cedar Point's setting on that peninsula is really quite beautiful.

As for Universal: I think IoA stacks up pretty well against MK. Several of the Islands (Port of Entry, Lost Continent) are exceptionally well done. If they could just keep Seuss painted, it would be right up there. I'm not a huge fan of Marvel---it's a little too two-dimensional, but I'm also not a fan of the cheap carnival look of "old" Fantasyland in MK. New Fantasyland is lovely, and the revisions to Pooh and the Tangled area give me hope that they will clean up the rest of that area sooner rather than later.

And, to put my cards fully on the table, I think the Magic Kingdom is a little more sterile overall than the charming Disneyland and the fantastic Disneyland Paris. I haven't been to the others yet---someday! But of the three I have been to, MK is in third place.

WWHOP is every bit as good as advertised. I just got back from Disneyland over President's Week, and Cars Land is the only themed area in the US that can compete with it. Cars Land is a spectacle and RSR is excellent. WWHOP seems to have even more of those little details. If push came to shove, I'm not sure which one I'd say I liked more.

 

[glamdring269]

Again, Universal sells the expedited tickets as an add on to the regular admission ticket. Meaning everyone has the same opportunity to get it if they so choose. Connecting expedited or fast pass line access to those who stay in deluxe resorts means not everyone has access.

That's fine too. I don't see a problem with allowing people not staying on site to purchase EMH. Just like I wouldn't see a problem with Disney offering more FP+ for people who want to pay for it. I came to the conclusion long ago that fairness only goes so far as the amount you're able to pay for it. And I'm ok with that reality.