Monorail Operating Costs and Reliability

[BlackMagicWoman]

The bus system is overloaded now and will not be able to handle the future crowds.

What info do you have to corroborate that? You do realize entire urban populations depend on bus transportation. I haven't seen anything at Disney to indicate they are maxed out. When buses come every three minutes and are full then we can talk capacity.

 

[Andrew015]

The bus system is overloaded now and will not be able to handle the future crowds.

I don't believe that the bus system is currently overloaded. I do, however, believe there is room for improvement (i.e. modifying routes, reallocating of bus resources, etc.) that could be done to improve the existing system. But to say that they are overcrowded is a pretty sweeping statement, and I don't buy it. Even if the existing system were on the verge of that point, they would simply add more bus capacity before they went the significantly more costly monorail / light rail route. We're already seeing Management's commitment to that direction with the new, larger bus depots and articulated buses.

I ride far more buses that have between 5-10 people on them than I do ones that are standing room only.

 

[rteetz]

I don't believe that the bus system is currently overloaded. I do, however, believe there is room for improvement (i.e. modifying routes, reallocating of bus resources, etc.) that could be done to improve the existing system. But to say that they are overcrowded is a pretty sweeping statement, and I don't buy it. Even if the existing system were on the verge of that point, they would simply add more bus capacity before they went the significantly more costly monorail / light rail route. We're already seeing Management's commitment to that direction with the new, larger bus depots and articulated buses.

I ride far more buses that have between 5-10 people on them than I do ones that are standing room only.

I've heard disney will not be purchasing anymore of the articulated buses.

 

[Andrew015]

Obviously it's totally anecdotal evidence.

I personally would love to see a trolley/lightrail type of system. But we won't get that, we will get more buses, longer buses, maybe even double decker buses.

We already have them....

 

[Andrew015]

I do wonder if Disney could expand their trains to 7 or 8 cars, what the cost would be? I know there would be limitations in the Contemporary, but could other stations be expanded to handle the extra cars? that would increase capacity to almost 500 per train, almost a 25% improvement. Over the course of a day, that is a lot of additional passengers getting moved, with an incrementally small up front cost.

I think you answered your own question, as this would be an "all or none" proposition. They couldn't expand the platforms at GF / Poly, but leave out the Contemporary. Could a platform expansion be done at all locations? Sure. The better question is could it be done cost-effectively, and the answer is a resounding "no".

By adding more people to each train, now you're talking longer wait times for boarding (think strollers / wheel chairs). So now you're talking longer delays at the stations, holding patterns, etc., which really just defeats the purpose to begin with....

 

[mcd2745]

How about a double-decker articulated bus?

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I don't believe that the bus system is currently overloaded. I do, however, believe there is room for improvement (i.e. modifying routes, reallocating of bus resources, etc.) that could be done to improve the existing system. But to say that they are overcrowded is a pretty sweeping statement, and I don't buy it. Even if the existing system were on the verge of that point, they would simply add more bus capacity before they went the significantly more costly monorail / light rail route. We're already seeing Management's commitment to that direction with the new, larger bus depots and articulated buses.

I ride far more buses that have between 5-10 people on them than I do ones that are standing room only.

True not all routes are full all the time. Buses are overflowing the AM and PM and at park closing. However a pod or light rail would be very usefull in helping even out the load by becoming the major replacement for the buses and using the buses to handle the overload and those routes that do not have the rider ship to warrant putting in rail.

Bus are plain becoming more and more expensive as well.

AKK

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

What info do you have to corroborate that? You do realize entire urban populations depend on bus transportation. I haven't seen anything at Disney to indicate they are maxed out. When buses come every three minutes and are full then we can talk capacity.

Madam look at my post to Andrew. The system has real capacity and other issues. I am not saying remove all the buses, but it can no longer handle the guest load in many times and routes. I do know a good deal about urban transportation.


AKK

 

[BlackMagicWoman]

Madam look at my post to Andrew. The system has real capacity and other issues. I am not saying remove all the buses, but it can no longer handle the guest load in many times and routes. I do know a good deal about urban transportation.


AKK

I don't currently see a bus problem that couldn't be alleviated with more buses. Again, I have yet to see buses come within minutes of one another and be at capacity. When that occurs, it's a capacity problem. Prior to that, it's "we could use more buses at peak times" problem.

Btw loved the double decked articulated bus. I would actually be tickled to get picked up in a double decker bus even if it wasn't articulated.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I don't currently see a bus problem that couldn't be alleviated with more buses. Again, I have yet to see buses come within minutes of one another and be at capacity. When that occurs, it's a capacity problem. Prior to that, it's "we could use more buses at peak times" problem.

Btw loved the double decked articulated bus. I would actually be tickled to get picked up in a double decker bus even if it wasn't articulated.

WDW can only run so many buses at the resorts, there is just so much space. Frankly you reach a point (and I believe we are not far from it on many routes) when it costs more to add and operate buses, stations roads, etc. then it would cost to put in the pods and light rail and even monorails, thereby also making it possible to reduce the number of buses and save money there.

PS..I would love to see some Double deckers at WDW..............but even they would be restricted in where they could operate.


Well we will have to agree to disagree

AKK

 

[lockedoutlogic]

What info do you have to corroborate that? You do realize entire urban populations depend on bus transportation. I haven't seen anything at Disney to indicate they are maxed out. When buses come every three minutes and are full then we can talk capacity.

Sorry, Tonk,

But there is no evidence...or even suggestion that the buses are overloaded.

That is what a "classic, nostalgic, monorail/wdw fan"...such as yourself...

Just throws out there to break the waves...

I know from several years now that youre a purist...and that you don't want to consider monorail elimination...

I'm not...nor is anybody really...suggesting that's coming soon.

They're not done converting dvcs yet

Seriously though...there is an identifyable path to that point though.

The Impact to the business would be a pellet gun aimed at an elephant.

 

[Andrew015]

True not all routes are full all the time. Buses are overflowing the AM and PM and at park closing. However a pod or light rail would be very usefull in helping even out the load by becoming the major replacement for the buses....
AKK

I'm interpreting the following from your response (right, wrong or indifferent)...

• The buses are only crowded in the AM and PM (park open and close)
• Otherwise, the existing bus system works fine

With that being the case, how will a pod/light rail system help "even out the load"? You're still going to have a mass of people at those two "peak" times. Now, you're just going to be moving them with a different mode of transportation (pod vs bus) that is still going to be overcrowded.

If what you're saying is true (that the system is only taxed at park open & close... which for argument sake, I will agree with), then you want a system that allows you to "flex up" at peak times and "dial things back" the rest of the day. Of the systems currently on the table (monorail, pod & bus), the one that gives you the best flexibility to do just that at the lowest possible cost is....



(don't mind the smog)...

 

[wallrock]

WDW can only run so many buses at the resorts, there is just so much space. Frankly you reach a point (and I believe we are not far from it on many routes) when it costs more to add and operate buses, stations roads, etc. then it would cost to put in the pods and light rail and even monorails, thereby also making it possible to reduce the number of buses and save money there.

PS..I would love to see some Double deckers at WDW..............but even they would be restricted in where they could operate.


Well we will have to agree to disagree

AKK

I'm getting the impression that you anticipate visitation to Orlando to significantly increase to the point that continuing with bus expansion the roads could be jammed with so many that people won't be able to move. Even if the buses were remotely close to capacity, which I don't think they are, there's only so many hotel rooms onsite that can be filled with only so many people.

You can't go beyond the four walls.

 

[Fantasia79]

I don't think anyone prefers riding busses all over Disney. I'd love to see them convert busses to a more Eco friendly format. Whether that comes in the form of hybrid busses, alternative fuel, etc. Obviously a huge investment, but I'm always bothered by the large amount of busses running all hours of the day and night.

 

[George4]

By adding more people to each train, now you're talking longer wait times for boarding (think strollers / wheel chairs). So now you're talking longer delays at the stations, holding patterns, etc., which really just defeats the purpose to begin with....

Not quite true. If each section of the train takes 30-45 seconds to load, it doesn't matter if I add more sections. It will still only take 30-45 seconds to load each one. It doesn't increase the wait time at all. Keep in mind that strollers just push on to the monorail, there are not issues in loading like with the buses.

 

[Andrew015]

Not quite true. If each section of the train takes 30-45 seconds to load, it doesn't matter if I add more sections. It will still only take 30-45 seconds to load each one. It doesn't increase the wait time at all. Keep in mind that strollers just push on to the monorail, there are not issues in loading like with the buses.

It is absolutely true, especially during "peak" hours, which is the time that everyone in the "pro capacity" camp is pointing to as the problem. The boarding lines at each station stretch a country mile - especially at MK - during rush hour. If you think you'll be able to squeeze an additional 100 people onto a train at MK at midnight in the same amount of time that it takes today, you're dreaming. Even if it's only an extra minute to board those 100 people at MK, that's a pretty significant impact on a loop in which your longest run is about 3 minutes total.

One extra minute is best-case scenario (no wheel chairs or scooters). However, realistically speaking, you can plan on having at least one or two of each per 100 people...

 

[George4]

It is absolutely true, especially during "peak" hours, which is the time that everyone in the "pro capacity" camp is pointing to as the problem. The boarding lines at each station stretch a country mile - especially at MK - during rush hour. If you think you'll be able to squeeze an additional 100 people onto a train at MK at midnight in the same amount of time that it takes today, you're dreaming. Even if it's only an extra minute to board those 100 people at MK, that's a pretty significant impact on a loop in which your longest run is about 3 minutes total.

I respectfully disagree with you. If I add 2 cars to each train, then I am also adding 6 doors that people can load through. Each section of each car has its own door to load through, unlike the buses that all load through one door. Buses take longer to load as you add more people. Because the monorails add doors as they add cars, the load time doesn't change. It is a static number, if it takes 30 seconds to load 20 people through one door into a car section, that load time doesn't change regardless of the number of doors (sections/cars). I can add 100-150 more people to a monorail in the same amount of time, because the additional cars add additional loading areas and lanes. The loading time does not change.

That is not true of the ferries and the buses, that have a single entry point.

You are correct that all of the transportation modes are overloaded at the end of the night, and that is just part of the "fun". However, if every monorail carried an additional chunk of people with every train, the crowd thins out quicker. Only two monorails can load at a time though, while 30 buses can load at the same time in the bus lanes. The buses can flex with the changing loads and sudden onslaught of people at the end of the night. The monorail can't really add that much capacity all at one time unfortunately.

 

[Andrew015]

I respectfully disagree with you. If I add 2 cars to each train, then I am also adding 6 doors that people can load through. Each section of each car has its own door to load through, unlike the buses that all load through one door. Buses take longer to load as you add more people. Because the monorails add doors as they add cars, the load time doesn't change. It is a static number, if it takes 30 seconds to load 20 people through one door into a car section, that load time doesn't change regardless of the number of doors (sections/cars). I can add 100-150 more people to a monorail in the same amount of time, because the additional cars add additional loading areas and lanes. The loading time does not change.
.

The load time would not change if everyone were able to line up next to the point where the doors would soon be opening. That is not the case at 4 out of the 5 stops, and even at MK, most of the time, the line to board the train extends well down the ramp. Add 100+ more people to the mix with wheel chairs, walkers and scooters, and the problem only worsens. In the abstract, your argument holds water. In reality, it fails for the reasons I've already mentioned.

You are correct that all of the transportation modes are overloaded at the end of the night, and that is just part of the "fun". However, if every monorail carried an additional chunk of people with every train, the crowd thins out quicker. Only two monorails can load at a time though, while 30 buses can load at the same time in the bus lanes. The buses can flex with the changing loads and sudden onslaught of people at the end of the night. The monorail can't really add that much capacity all at one time unfortunately.

I think you just ended the debate right here....

 

[old lady]

I wish they would find a way to make it more cost efficient. I would hate for them to get rid of the monorail like they did with the peoplemover or the skyway.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I'm getting the impression that you anticipate visitation to Orlando to significantly increase to the point that continuing with bus expansion the roads could be jammed with so many that people won't be able to move. Even if the buses were remotely close to capacity, which I don't think they are, there's only so many hotel rooms onsite that can be filled with only so many people.

You can't go beyond the four walls.

It is not the main roads, its the approaches, driveways, bus stops at the resorts........all are limited and crowded already.

Actually yes you can beyond 4 walls........looks at the recent addition of hotel rooms and the present additions and the plans to add a western theme hotel between WL and FW and a non Disney resort by the AK.........all adding buses .

AKK