Modern Feminism

[MoonFaerie]

No, but if a plan is going to cover ED meds, why can't it cover my BC pills for cramps or another medical reason (besides preventing pregnancy).

And the reason a plan should cover BC - it is CHEAPER to cover a prescription than to have a BABY - so from a business perspective, it is smart to cover

That. Exactly. There's no good reason to cover Viagra and not the pill.

I am absolutely a feminist. I definitely appreciate those before me that struggled to give me the right to vote. That made it so not only can I attend college, and I can even pursue fields that are still male dominated.

I don't consider feminism to be on par with independence though. I think that our society's obsession with independence isn't really that great of a goal. I think having a good support system and helping when you can and accepting help when you need it is a far better goal. That's mostly off topic, but since independence was brought up by someone else, I figured it was semi-relevant.

 

[JennaDeeDooDah]

That. Exactly. There's no good reason to cover Viagra and not the pill.

I am absolutely a feminist. I definitely appreciate those before me that struggled to give me the right to vote. That made it so not only can I attend college, and I can even pursue fields that are still male dominated.

I don't consider feminism to be on par with independence though. I think that our society's obsession with independence isn't really that great of a goal. I think having a good support system and helping when you can and accepting help when you need it is a far better goal. That's mostly off topic, but since independence was brought up by someone else, I figured it was semi-relevant.

But should the government really be allowed to tell a private business such as a health insurance provider what they are required to provide? Is not the point of a capitalistic society to have the market decide what the business provides? It is my opinion that insurance companies can choose exactly what they want to cover. If they want to offer coverage of absolutely nothing unless you happen to get breast cancer in only your left breast, I believe that is their right to do so. They likely will not stay in business long, but it is their right.

 

[MoonFaerie]

But should the government really be allowed to tell a private business such as a health insurance provider what they are required to provide? Is not the point of a capitalistic society to have the market decide what the business provides? It is my opinion that insurance companies can choose exactly what they want to cover. If they want to offer coverage of absolutely nothing unless you happen to get breast cancer in only your left breast, I believe that is their right to do so. They likely will not stay in business long, but it is their right.

I can't fully answer that without getting political, which would get this thread shut down.

I'll just say that
1) Preventing pregnancy is definitely more economically sound than the cost of a pregnancy and lifetime of medical care.
2) The pill is used for more than preventing pregnancy. It's weaksauce for a company to use their religious beliefs to tell my Dr how to treat my medical problems. (General "my problems" - I can't use hormonal birth control at all)
3) I tend to fall on the side that sees healthcare as more of a right than just a privilege for the well-off. I can't fathom why anyone would have a problem with preventative health care. A healthy person is a much more productive member of society, plus back to 1) with prevention being cheaper than treatment.

 

[Mkrop]

I think that the women's movement was an excellent thing at its core. I think that many women might get turned off at the term "feminist" because of how some self proclaimed feminists can be. Websters defines a feminist as " a person who advocates equal rights for women". I think that is fantastic. I would consider myself to be a feminist using simply that definition. However, things are rarely in such black and white terms. Many women who call themselves feminists can actually be a turnoff to many women.

I was a special education teacher until I chose to be a stay-at-home-mom/homemaker/whatever the term is that people want to use. I love staying home with my daughter. I was there for her first steps, her first words, the first time she used the potty, etc. I would never want to give that up, even though I absolutely adored my job teaching special needs children. I have met women who have actually berated me for choosing to stay home. They say that the women of the women's movement would be horribly disappointed in me. They told me that I, and other women like me, are the reason that women get paid less than men - it's because women will choose to stay home with their children and are less reliable for it. I was appalled. That is not at all what the women's movement was about. There once was a time when a woman could be a nurse, teacher, or secretary. And that was only if she was single. Once she was married, society said that she should be staying home. Society said that if she worked while married, her husband was less of a man and couldn't provide for his family. They would say that a woman had no place outside the home if she was married, and no place outside of teaching, nursing, or being a secretary if she was single. The women's movement changed that.

The women's movement was all about how society had no business telling a woman where she belonged. That was her call. If she wanted to be a doctor rather than a nurse, who was anyone to tell her she was wrong for it? If she chose to be a lawyer rather than a secretary, more power to her. However, if she chose to stay home, that was her right. They just wanted women to know that they didn't need to feel that that was their only choice.

I consider myself to be a strong, independent woman who made a choice for myself. I do not feel that I am a member of the stronger sex. Neither do I feel I am a member of the weaker sex. I am a woman and I am able to achieve anything I set my mind to do and no one has any business telling me otherwise.

This is something that irritates me to no end. Women are being used as a pawn in this situation. They are trying to make us believe that not providing free birth control is somehow an attack on women. If women are truly as strong as we are taught to believe we are, should we not be able to take control of our bodies ourselves? Should we not be able to provide for ourselves? Should we not be smart enough to take our reproduction into our own hands are wise enough to realize that if we cannot afford birth control, we cannot afford to be having sex? Pawns. And so many fell for it.

A Male Gen-X perspective:

The feminist movement is not the same as it used to be, largely because it was successful. Women now outnumber men at most colleges, women outnumber men on the Olympic team and it's only a matter of time before we have a woman President. Many of the glass ceilings that were in place in the past have been broken and women are now doing almost anything they want. I know several women who are the primary breadwinner, and my boss is a woman.

Obviously not everything has turned around, wages are probably the first thing that comes to mind. Still, a lot has improved.

There's also been some backlash though. For a while, the feminist movement looked down on stay at home Moms as if they were not somehow living up to the standards that the movement had set. There are certain elements of the movement that are hostile to men in general, and a lot of women reject that. The feminist movement has also been tied with a lot of left wing agenda items, and with the rise of conservatism over the last 30 years, many women are rejecting the movement along with the liberal ties.

I think the main thing though, is that it's matured. A lot of the militant feminism is gone and it's been replaced by women being confident and knowing what they want out of life. They realize that they don't have to be militant feminists nor do they have to be some mans lapdog. They're their own person with their own desires and they don't have to live up to the expectations of some other person or group no matter who that may be. Their men appreciate this about them too. Today I see a lot of women under 40 who are really trying to balance both sides of what they want. They want to be treated like equals, but they also want to be put on a pedestal. They want careers and they want families. They should get all of that and not have to conform to some artificial standard created by anyone.

But should the government really be allowed to tell a private business such as a health insurance provider what they are required to provide? Is not the point of a capitalistic society to have the market decide what the business provides? It is my opinion that insurance companies can choose exactly what they want to cover. If they want to offer coverage of absolutely nothing unless you happen to get breast cancer in only your left breast, I believe that is their right to do so. They likely will not stay in business long, but it is their right.

JennaDeeDodah, I am just going to keep quoting you bc so far I give a on everything you have said.


And the stuff I highlighted in newt's insightful post is why I think why many woman may not embrace the feminist label. I dont want to put men down in order to bring myself up. And many feminists seem to think if you are conservative on social issues you dont embracethe feminist ideas. It feels to me like the liberal agenda is the only way to be accepted as a true feminist. No thanks...

Everyday I thank the woman who came before me and made it possible for me to vote, to go to college, for women to play sports etc. I love that woman have choices now.

 

[JennaDeeDooDah]

I can't fully answer that without getting political, which would get this thread shut down.

I'll just say that
1) Preventing pregnancy is definitely more economically sound than the cost of a pregnancy and lifetime of medical care.
2) The pill is used for more than preventing pregnancy. It's weaksauce for a company to use their religious beliefs to tell my Dr how to treat my medical problems. (General "my problems" - I can't use hormonal birth control at all)
3) I tend to fall on the side that sees healthcare as more of a right than just a privilege for the well-off. I can't fathom why anyone would have a problem with preventative health care. A healthy person is a much more productive member of society, plus back to 1) with prevention being cheaper than treatment.

You are right that this is likely to get too political. I do disagree with you (no surprise there with what I posted previously, though, right?) on number three, but I think that's great. How great is it that we can live in a country and society where we are able to have such differing viewpoints and are able to express them? Pretty awesome, huh?


Now, back on topic about feminism, does it amuse anyone else how people respond to comments about "women's work" and "men's work"? An example: Earlier a poster talked about a woman saying that she had never checked her oil because that was man's work. Comments like this often result in the shaking of the head, maybe a bit of an eyeroll or a sigh, and the attempt to convince the woman that she can check her oil just as easily as a man can. BUT, if you have a man who says he won't do laundry because it is woman's work, that often results in some rather irate responses. Not often handled with as much sensitivity. Just something that amuses me.

 

[RitaE]

A question for the feminists

Is having birth control paid for by someone else something that makes you feel more like a feminist?

I would think that the fact that a woman (with means of course) that could provide their own BC, would make them feel independent.

And of all the drugs that people need in the world, blood pressure meds, diabetes meds, whatever, why is birth control something that makes it to the "must be free (paid for by someone else) list"?

I personally don't feel that is so much a feminist issue as a sociological issue.

There are several interesting facts in regards to birth control as it relates to the well being of females and overall society. There are many studies that have shown likely and reliable routes in improving overall standards of living in a region or community is to

1. Provide education to females and 2. Reduce or remove barriers (availability, accessibility, and knowledge) to a female's access to planning conception and family.

It is an incredibly complex and fascinating field of study. When we here in the US think of feminism we tend to think of Gloria Steinman and bra burning and demands for (fill in the blank). As a worldwide issue it tends to take more of a slant of encouraging cultural change which improves freedom and standards of living for females so that it approximates males.

As for the argument as why should birth control pills be provided for free (either through health insurance which isn't free, or by some sort of public health/private charity program) the argument would be that birth control is almost all a woman's burden. The only method of birth control available for men is a condom, which is a very poor method of birth control. Otherwise, it is up to the woman to choose the method, obtain the prescription or procedure, and apply it to her body. In addition, in a large percentage of cases the woman also bears the cost of pregnancy and parenting. She carries and births the baby and then often also subjugates her own earning potential and future to raising the child. Shifting responsibility of the cost of contraception to the entire population is a way of mitigating that burden.

Sorry, really long answer. I'll add that I don't necessarily agree with all of those arguments in full - but those are some of the justifications given.

 

[JennaDeeDooDah]

JennaDeeDodah, I am just going to keep quoting you bc so far I give a on everything you have said.


And the stuff I highlighted in newt's insightful post is why I think why many woman may not embrace the feminist label. I dont want to put men down in order to bring myself up. And many feminists seem to think if you are conservative on social issues you dont embracethe feminist ideas. It feels to me like the liberal agenda is the only way to be accepted as a true feminist. No thanks...

Everyday I thank the woman who came before me and made it possible for me to vote, to go to college, for women to play sports etc. I love that woman have choices now.

That makes me feel really good. Thank you.

 

[Princess Dolly]

A question for the feminists

Is having birth control paid for by someone else something that makes you feel more like a feminist?

I would think that the fact that a woman (with means of course) that could provide their own BC, would make them feel independent.

And of all the drugs that people need in the world, blood pressure meds, diabetes meds, whatever, why is birth control something that makes it to the "must be free (paid for by someone else) list"?

No, but if a plan is going to cover ED meds, why can't it cover my BC pills for cramps or another medical reason (besides preventing pregnancy).

And the reason a plan should cover BC - it is CHEAPER to cover a prescription than to have a BABY - so from a business perspective, it is smart to cover

I'm a feminist, proudly so. And one thing I would love to see more of is women being more supportive of other women. We all may choose different paths, but they are all equally important.

And what is with the BS that to prove our feminism we should proudly pay for our own BC? I mean I do pay for mine, but it's a copay, just like my other meds. That is the way it should be.

 

[Colleen27]

I think that the women's movement was an excellent thing at its core. I think that many women might get turned off at the term "feminist" because of how some self proclaimed feminists can be. Websters defines a feminist as " a person who advocates equal rights for women". I think that is fantastic. I would consider myself to be a feminist using simply that definition. However, things are rarely in such black and white terms. Many women who call themselves feminists can actually be a turnoff to many women.

I was a special education teacher until I chose to be a stay-at-home-mom/homemaker/whatever the term is that people want to use. I love staying home with my daughter. I was there for her first steps, her first words, the first time she used the potty, etc. I would never want to give that up, even though I absolutely adored my job teaching special needs children. I have met women who have actually berated me for choosing to stay home. They say that the women of the women's movement would be horribly disappointed in me. They told me that I, and other women like me, are the reason that women get paid less than men - it's because women will choose to stay home with their children and are less reliable for it. I was appalled. That is not at all what the women's movement was about. There once was a time when a woman could be a nurse, teacher, or secretary. And that was only if she was single. Once she was married, society said that she should be staying home. Society said that if she worked while married, her husband was less of a man and couldn't provide for his family. They would say that a woman had no place outside the home if she was married, and no place outside of teaching, nursing, or being a secretary if she was single. The women's movement changed that.

The women's movement was all about how society had no business telling a woman where she belonged. That was her call. If she wanted to be a doctor rather than a nurse, who was anyone to tell her she was wrong for it? If she chose to be a lawyer rather than a secretary, more power to her. However, if she chose to stay home, that was her right. They just wanted women to know that they didn't need to feel that that was their only choice.

I consider myself to be a strong, independent woman who made a choice for myself. I do not feel that I am a member of the stronger sex. Neither do I feel I am a member of the weaker sex. I am a woman and I am able to achieve anything I set my mind to do and no one has any business telling me otherwise.

That is precisely why I don't self-identify as a feminist. I was an honor student, full ride to college, working in a technical, male-dominated field, and I walked away from that path to move to the country and raise my kids. The condemnation I got for that choice really opened my eyes to the darker side of the feminist movement, where the rigid expectations of a male-dominated society have merely been replaced by equally rigid expectations for what it means to be a woman who stands for equal rights. Like you, I was told that women like me were the reason for the glass ceiling, and people said some really horrible things about the example I'm setting for my daughters.

I believe in the ideals of the early feminist movement. Women should have just as much ability as men to choose their destiny, whether that means work or staying home with children, marriage or remaining single, a houseful of kids or none at all. But I think the modern movement has come to be dominated by the more radical element that don't see the irony in their belief in one right path for all women.

 

[cornflake]

Of course.

 

[Laura]

I'm a feminist!

Lots of women are feminists, they just don't/won't call themselves that.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

I do not identify as a feminist because I believe that feminists are under the incorrect impression that men are somehow equal to me.

Look, I make more than my husband. I get up earlier and work longer hours. I do the majority of the housework. I cook our meals. I balance our checkbook. I keep track of the family's appointments and keep our calendar straight. I make sure cards go out regularly every birthday or holiday to all family members. I plan all our vacations. I grow an herb garden, manage our photo collection and decorate our home. During this particular time period in my development, I am also gestating a new human being. And doing all this I still look better than most men I know.

Am I militant against men? No, I love men. Men are great! Were polyandry legal I'd be on the warpath trying to convince my DH to agree to a second husband. I certainly feel confident that I could be a good provider to both.

I am not against feminism, and I thank women like my mom for working so hard at it. I just believe I have moved on from it. Feminism works off the base assumption that I (as a woman) need to work to get ahead of men. I'm sorry, but I laugh at the idea that a man could ever get in my way.

 

[Mokat76]

I am a feminist. I grew up in the 60s and 70s when a "girl" had limited options. I was truly fortunate that my parents believed none of that and that I stood on the edge of adulthood when some truly amazing opportunities began to open for women. I took them--at least the ones that interested me. I'm glad I did and I hope that younger women who saw my success felt free to piggyback on it and go even further.

Newt2 has some good points. There's less emphasis because of the early successes. I have a relative who has a basketball scholarship, but she looks at me blankly when I espouse some feminist concept. Point is, she accepts it as the norm that Title IX gives her this chance (without knowing that Title IX even exists). That's a huge win for feminism. She doesn't know why she can play basketball and have her college education paid for, she just knows she can. She never knew a time when womens sports were not part of the culture.

I know there's still work to be done to promote equality, but we're so much farther along now than we were then. I'm proud if I had a small part of making that happen. And yes, I'm still a feminist and I will not deny nor apologize for that.

 

[WowLookAtThat]

Well, I suppose I do consider myself a feminist. I think that feminism is about choice, if I choose to stay home or have a career and equality, not just in the work place but in other matters.

I was told as a child that men were the head of the house and that was it. However, I rebelled against that idea when I was older. I wanted to prove that I was just as good as my brother. I didn't know this until later but my dad (who was sometimes my biggest obstacle) is proud of the fact that I took charge of many things in my life and faced challenges "even though she is a woman" (dad's words,not mine)

As for 50 Shades, I am trying to get through the book series now and even though its popular, I am not really warming up to Ana. She is a doormat, unable to have her own personality and when she finally does stand up to herself, she feels guilty. Not all young women want to be like her.

 

[jbcheerchick93]

I do not identify as a feminist because I believe that feminists are under the incorrect impression that men are somehow equal to me.

Look, I make more than my husband. I get up earlier and work longer hours. I do the majority of the housework. I cook our meals. I balance our checkbook. I keep track of the family's appointments and keep our calendar straight. I make sure cards go out regularly every birthday or holiday to all family members. I plan all our vacations. I grow an herb garden, manage our photo collection and decorate our home. During this particular time period in my development, I am also gestating a new human being. And doing all this I still look better than most men I know.

Am I militant against men? No, I love men. Men are great! Were polyandry legal I'd be on the warpath trying to convince my DH to agree to a second husband. I certainly feel confident that I could be a good provider to both.

I am not against feminism, and I thank women like my mom for working so hard at it. I just believe I have moved on from it. Feminism works off the base assumption that I (as a woman) need to work to get ahead of men. I'm sorry, but I laugh at the idea that a man could ever get in my way.

Love this response!

Maybe I can offer some direct input since I am a young women in today's society, going to college, and working hard alongside men. I would never call myself a feminist for many reasons, ones that JennaDeeDooDah has pointed out so eloquently. (Great job with that btw!!) I believe that women and men should have equal pay, but I do not, under any circumstance, believe that women who choose to stay at home and raise their children are any less than a women who chooses to go to work and support her family. I would dare say I'm 95% conservative, but I do have a few liberal view points . I actually hope to do exactly what JennaDeeDooDah has done, work for a few years so that I am able to stay at home with the family I will hopefully have one day.

I had a teacher in high school who told me that I should be embarrassed that I wanted to stay at home and be a mom. Well, I think she should be embarrassed for being a "feminist" and putting down another woman . She is one of the reasons that I will never call myself a feminist, because she would proudly tell anyone who was within 5 feet of her that she was a huge feminist, her husband stayed home, she brought home the money, etc etc. I believe in a partnership, that you shouldn't make your husband/wife feel less than you because you make more money or because you stay at home. Each person has their place in a relationship and it is a personal choice how you work it out between your S/O. That choice is the entire reason the feminist movement was started.

 

[Tiggeroo]

This is something that irritates me to no end. Women are being used as a pawn in this situation. They are trying to make us believe that not providing free birth control is somehow an attack on women. If women are truly as strong as we are taught to believe we are, should we not be able to take control of our bodies ourselves? Should we not be able to provide for ourselves? Should we not be smart enough to take our reproduction into our own hands are wise enough to realize that if we cannot afford birth control, we cannot afford to be having sex? Pawns. And so many fell for it.

I agree in theory. I just believe we should offer inexpensive options for low income women because remaining child free when needed provide more options. There was a time when insurance covered Viagra but not bc

 

[cornflake]

Well, I suppose I do consider myself a feminist. I think that feminism is about choice, if I choose to stay home or have a career and equality, not just in the work place but in other matters.

I was told as a child that men were the head of the house and that was it. However, I rebelled against that idea when I was older. I wanted to prove that I was just as good as my brother. I didn't know this until later but my dad (who was sometimes my biggest obstacle) is proud of the fact that I took charge of many things in my life and faced challenges "even though she is a woman" (dad's words,not mine)

As for 50 Shades, I am trying to get through the book series now and even though its popular, I am not really warming up to Ana. She is a doormat, unable to have her own personality and when she finally does stand up to herself, she feels guilty. Not all young women want to be like her.

It is Twilight fanfic, no? Who is a worse role model for girls than Bella the useless moron with no life or agency or goals (besides having a boyfriend) or anything? Not surprising the 50 Shades character would also be a useless suck.

 

[WowLookAtThat]

It is Twilight fanfic, no? Who is a worse role model for girls than Bella the useless moron with no life or agency or goals (besides having a boyfriend) or anything? Not surprising the 50 Shades character would also be a useless suck.

Ick, is it? Bella is just as bad if not worse.

 

[MoonFaerie]

Love this response!

Maybe I can offer some direct input since I am a young women in today's society, going to college, and working hard alongside men. I would never call myself a feminist for many reasons, ones that JennaDeeDooDah has pointed out so eloquently. (Great job with that btw!!) I believe that women and men should have equal pay, but I do not, under any circumstance, believe that women who choose to stay at home and raise their children are any less than a women who chooses to go to work and support her family. I would dare say I'm 95% conservative, but I do have a few liberal view points . I actually hope to do exactly what JennaDeeDooDah has done, work for a few years so that I am able to stay at home with the family I will hopefully have one day.

I had a teacher in high school who told me that I should be embarrassed that I wanted to stay at home and be a mom. Well, I think she should be embarrassed for being a "feminist" and putting down another woman . She is one of the reasons that I will never call myself a feminist, because she would proudly tell anyone who was within 5 feet of her that she was a huge feminist, her husband stayed home, she brought home the money, etc etc. I believe in a partnership, that you shouldn't make your husband/wife feel less than you because you make more money or because you stay at home. Each person has their place in a relationship and it is a personal choice how you work it out between your S/O. That choice is the entire reason the feminist movement was started.

Well FWIW, I'm very firmly part of Team Feminist, and I think a relationship is a partnership too. The radical, extreme people are NEVER an accurate representative of the group they claim to belong to, IMO.

 

[laura.anne]

For those of you who are disappointed with how you were treated by many feminists when you chose to stay home rather than work outside the home, I really want you to know that modern-day feminism has evolved (for the most part) beyond that type of thinking. This wave of feminism that we're in right now has really taken root in the internet and there are thousands of blogs out there that discuss this type of issue. A lot of feminists that I know personally IRL and from elsewhere online would condemn and have condemned the notion of "You MUST work instead of stay at home." That's not to say that there aren't people who don't think that way anymore, but I don't think as many feminists today would condemn you for staying home.