MN Fees/Trades

[debloco]

Hello all,
My DH and I have been debating about buying the DVC at VWL since 2000. In the current round of discussions, the issue of MN fees has come up. We are looking at a resale of 370 pts. The current MN fees are around $1536 for the year. My DH wants to do the math as follows:
$30,000 for the points
$60,000 for the MN fees for the next 38 years
If we take that $90,000 and divide by 38, you get $2370 per year (not including the 3-5% increase in MF each year). On the high end that’s about $338 per night for a 7-night stay in a 2-bedroom villa in any season except Premier. On the low end we could also do 3 weeks in a studio during Adventure season at an average cost of $112 per night. Suffice it to say that the MN fees could be a deal breaker for DH. I view the costs separately- buying the points is one thing, paying the yearly fees is another- but he does have a point about total cost to own this for the 38 years.
His (possible) solution is to purchase a non-DVC timeshare and trade into Disney when we want to go there. He believes the resale cost and the MN fees will be less than if we go with Disney. I have several questions about this. First, how far in advance can you book into Disney? Is it 7 months like booking outside your home resort? Can you even book the DVC properties or is it just the Disney hotels? How do the points compare? What is this “II” company that works with the DVC exchange program? Finally, if we do buy the VWL, how hard is it to book a 2-bedroom the week before Christmas (this year the dates would be 12/18-12/23) every year? I am concerned after reading posts referring to how difficult weekends are to get. Thanks in advance for your help and advice!
CLC Tiger Pom Mom

 

[Dean]

II is Interval International. It's a timeshare exchange company where you trade a full week for other full weeks that someone else has given up (traded). Do not buy DVC with the idea of trading, it's too tenuous.

370 points is a lot of points for a beginner who's trying to decide if they even want to buy, especially if they haven't convinced themselves to buy in four years. Why not look at less points and see how it goes. And for the time you're looking at, 370 points will give you essentially 10 days or more in that 2 BR if you only do one weekend. More nights if you use smaller units and/or shy away from weekend nights when possible.

As for the price and fees, they are high. In part it depends on whether you'd stay on property in a deluxe much of the time. If so, remember the tax for WDW is high, around 13%. And that the rooms will increase around the rate as the fees do, or more. And it's awfully difficult to compare a 2 BR unit to a single room no matter how nice the room is.

 

[rchristiansen]

We just signed a contract for 100 points at 70 a point = 7,000 (we wanted to start small as we are a young family) and bought into OKW which has lower maint fees only 3.68 or was it 3.86 (something like that) a point. Using your calculations I figure it costs (not adjusted for inflation) about 21,000 or about 550 a year. I looked at it this way - 550 is about 1 1/2 nights cost at a deluxe resort (Poly, GF, etc) and I can stay about a week for that price. So to me it made sense to buy the resort with lower maint fees and start with the lower points contract...we can always add on later.

 

[tjkraz]

The financial analysis is the trickiest part of a DVC decision because there are so many different ways to twist the numbers. Here are some random observations:

- Dean is right...370 points is an awful lot. In your post you mention 3 weeks in a studio. If you are taking annual WDW trips of 3 weeks per year, then you probably need to figure out SOME way that DVC makes sense for you.

- Your $30,000 figure sounds a little high. That's $81 per point. I think the going rate is closer to $75 per point, and that's on the high side.

- A simpler method of looking at the costs might be to just amortize the initial purchase over the full 38 years, and then just add in the current year's maintenance. Let's say you pay $75 per point. Divide that by 38 years and you get an annual cost of $1.97 per point. In 2004 Maintenance at VWL is $4.22 per point. Add the two numbers together and you get a 2004 cost of $6.19 per point.

The "value" that you're going to get from your points will greatly vary depending on your travel routine. A Studio in Adventure OR Choice season is 12 points (Sunday to Thursday.) At $6.19 per point, you're paying $74.28 for a single night in that room. The Rack Rate is $279 plus 11.5% tax. So, DVC represents a SIGNIFICANT savings in this scenario--about 75% off of the Rack Rates.

However, weekends cost more and other seasons cost more.

There is no question you will see savings with DVC over the Rack Rates (and even compared to discounted rates), but the degree of savings will often depend on how you use your points.

- Getting back to the number of points, make sure you buy an amount that really suits your needs. The last thing you want is to have points go unused in a year. Your post mentions everything from a week in a 2B to three weeks in a studio, so I really can't tell how you normally travel. If you don't need 370 points, don't get that many.

- Your husband is correct in that you can buy another timeshare for a lot less. But good luck trading into a DVC resort. And don't believe whatever line of garbage the salesman might feed you. You might want to check out the Timeshare Users' Group (www.tug2.com) for more info on timeshares in general. You'll get a much more balanced POV there.

- Regarding your question on reserving VWL this December, I'd have to say that it is fairly unlikely. Owners can reserve at their Home resort up to 11 months in advance, and at all DVC properties 7 months in advance. Since we are less than 7 months from December, and VWL is the smallest DVC resort (about 130 rooms), my guess is that you don't have much of a chance of getting all of those dates in a 2B. And remember that even if you decide to move forward now, you've got at least 60 days ahead of searching for a resale, making an offer, getting it accepted, waiting for DVC to decline ROFR, closing, getting into the DVC computers, etc. By August / September when you can make a reservation, you might be able to get a room at Old Key West, but any of the other resorts will be a crapshoot, IMO.

Good luck, and don't be afraid to ask more questions.

 

[dianeschlicht]

Another flaw in the thinking is that the maintenance fees will increase 3-5% EACH year. At OKW, we have not seen that much increase often, and sometimes it has gone down.

I can't remember if anyone else mentioned this or not, but trading INTO DVC is difficult, even if you own one of the II resorts DVC trades with.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by dianeschlicht
Another flaw in the thinking is that the maintenance fees will increase 3-5% EACH year. At OKW, we have not seen that much increase often, and sometimes it has gone down.

I can't remember if anyone else mentioned this or not, but trading INTO DVC is difficult, even if you own one of the II resorts DVC trades with.

To piggy back with Diane and a little off topic I guess. The DVC trade list has NOTHING to do with what resorts can trade into DVC. It's simply a question of which resorts DVC will allow us to trade out to. Those resorts on the list do not have an inside track to trading in.

 

[FLYNZ4]

Trading into DVC is one of the most difficult trades to get within II. If you simply want to go to Orlando, and do not care about DVC... then it is a very easy trade, and inventory is pretty much guaranteed up till the last minute. However, the chances of finding a trade into DVC, at a time you want to go (if even at all)... is minimal.

In general, we think buying non-DVC properties for general (non-WDW) travel is the way to go. Other condos are a small fraction of the cost of DVC, and you can stay in very nice places. However, we bought DVC because it is the only cost effective, and reliable way of staying on DVC properties, and when we go to WDW, we want to stay on site. Because we stay in nice condos so often (2-3 weekends/month)... we are totally spoiled and really enjoy the more spacious accommodations that DVC provides... especially since our WDW trips tend to be for longer durations.

BTW, When I book vacations at DVC... I plan to start an II search with hopes of getting a hit. For example... my December VWL vacation will take 208 points for a week in a 1BR. If I was to happen to get an II exchange that week, my total costs for the week would be under $500 including all of the trade fees (II and DVC), and the cost of the MF's for my home resort. I could then rent my 208 DVC credits for $2000 instead. BTW, I am not expecting to get II trades so I assume that I will pretty much always consume my DVC points.

You can see that your DH is on the right track in thinking that DVC is not the most economical path compared to other timeshares... however, the very limited availability of of DVC trades makes owning DVC very attractive if you value being able to have any predictability in staying there.

/Jim

 

[bwvBound]

debloco said ...
His (possible) solution is to purchase a non-DVC timeshare and trade into Disney when we want to go there. He believes the resale cost and the MN fees will be less than if we go with Disney. I have several questions about this. First, how far in advance can you book into Disney? Is it 7 months like booking outside your home resort? Can you even book the DVC properties or is it just the Disney hotels? How do the points compare?

I've completed two successful exchanges from my WorldMark (WM) ownership into DVC as follows:

• Booked DVC Boardwalk Villa studio for JAN-04 in APR-03 (9 months out)
• Booked DVC Boardwalk Villas 1BR for JAN-05 in MAR-04 (10 months out)

Both exchanges were done through Interval International (II). Beyond my WM purchase and maint fees were:

• II annual dues ($73/year, sometimes lower if II is running a renewal special)
• II Exchange fee ($129 for domestic exchanges starting 1-JUL)
• DVC Inbound exchange fee of $95

From my experiences, exchanging into DVC through II is "possible but not easy" for the following reasons:

• There is a limited (unpublished?) list of properties permitted to exchange into DVC.
• If using II's "auto search" feature, I must give them either 3 different resorts or 3 different weeks for travel. Since I prefer 1 resort, 1 specific check-in ... I am NOT able to use II's auto-search feature and must search manually each day.
• While searching manually, I typically see studio units ... and the occasional 1BR. Spotting a 2BR unit is very rare!

Hope this helps!

 

[mikesmom]

Please note that BWVBound has successfully traded into DVC in January. Frankly, I can call the day before and get January! It's just a pretty quiet time at DVC. On the other hand if you want to go in October/November (Food & Wine Fest is on), December (obvious!), Spring break (could be anywhere from March thru April) or summer season, it will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to get a reservation.

 

[Dean]

DVC at WDW inventory is most available January, February, May, Sept and Oct. Occasionally during the summer, especially for smaller units. OKW is more available than everything else.

 

[bwvBound]

Originally posted by mikesmom
Please note that BWVBound has successfully traded into DVC in January. Frankly, I can call the day before and get January!

Fine, January - exactly the resort and week I need each year for a conference. Unfortunately, I've never felt comfortable booking key travel elements "the day before" (especially an inbound DVC exchange!) and have been very happy booking months in advance.

Running a few spot checks through II this morning here are other exchanges currently available:

Disney's Old Key West Resort • DVO
Lake Buena Vista, FL, USA Efficiency, Sleeps 4
Limited kitchen Saturday, August 21 2004/
Saturday, August 28 2004

Disney's Vero Beach Resort • DVB
Vero Beach, FL, USA Efficiency, Sleeps 4
Limited kitchen Saturday, November 06 2004/
Saturday, November 13 2004

Disney's Boardwalk Villas • DBW
Lake Buena Vista, FL, USA Efficiency, Sleeps 4
Limited kitchen Saturday, November 06 2004/
Saturday, November 13 2004

Disney's Old Key West Resort • DVO
Lake Buena Vista, FL, USA Efficiency, Sleeps 4
Limited kitchen Saturday, November 06 2004/
Saturday, November 13 2004

Disney's Hilton Head Island Resort • DVH
Hilton Head Island, SC, USA 1 bedroom, Sleeps 4
Full kitchen Saturday, November 27 2004/
Saturday, December 04 2004

Disney's Hilton Head Island Resort • DVH
Hilton Head Island, SC, USA 1 bedroom, Sleeps 4
Full kitchen Sunday, November 28 2004/
Sunday, December 05 2004

Disney's Vero Beach Resort • DVB
Vero Beach, FL, USA Efficiency, Sleeps 4
Limited kitchen Saturday, December 04 2004/
Saturday, December 11 2004

Disney's Vero Beach Resort • DVB
Vero Beach, FL, USA 1 bedroom, Sleeps 4
Full kitchen Saturday, December 04 2004/
Saturday, December 11 2004

Disney's Hilton Head Island Resort • DVH
Hilton Head Island, SC, USA 1 bedroom, Sleeps 4
Full kitchen Saturday, December 04 2004/
Saturday, December 11 2004

Disney's Hilton Head Island Resort • DVH
Hilton Head Island, SC, USA 2 bedrooms, Sleeps 8
Full kitchen Saturday, December 04 2004/
Saturday, December 11 2004

Disney's Hilton Head Island Resort • DVH
Hilton Head Island, SC, USA 1 bedroom, Sleeps 4
Full kitchen Saturday, December 11 2004/
Saturday, December 18 2004

Disney's Hilton Head Island Resort • DVH
Hilton Head Island, SC, USA Efficiency, Sleeps 4
Limited kitchen Saturday, February 05 2005/
Saturday, February 12 2005

Disney's Hilton Head Island Resort • DVH
Hilton Head Island, SC, USA 1 bedroom, Sleeps 4
Full kitchen Saturday, February 19 2005/
Saturday, February 26 2005

Disney's Hilton Head Island Resort • DVH
Hilton Head Island, SC, USA 1 bedroom, Sleeps 4
Full kitchen Saturday, March 05 2005/
Saturday, March 12 2005

Disney's Hilton Head Island Resort • DVH
Hilton Head Island, SC, USA 2 bedrooms, Sleeps 8
Full kitchen Saturday, March 05 2005/
Saturday, March 12 2005

Disney's Hilton Head Island Resort • DVH
Hilton Head Island, SC, USA 1 bedroom, Sleeps 4
Full kitchen Saturday, March 12 2005/
Saturday, March 19 2005

Disney's Hilton Head Island Resort • DVH
Hilton Head Island, SC, USA 2 bedrooms, Sleeps 8
Full kitchen Saturday, March 12 2005/
Saturday, March 19 2005

 

[Dean]

One point is that HH for off season, esp winter, is almost always available. Say November to early March excluding Xmas and Thanksgiving. VB has had a lot of availability in off season the last couple of years as well.

 

[debloco]

Thanks to everyone for their input. For the record, if it had been up to me we would have bought VWL when they were still under construction! I think for my DH the fact that the MN Fees are sooo much more than the actual cost of the points over the 38 years is the sticking point. It does bring the yearly cost to a little over $2200, regardless of how we vacation at Disney. I would like to have that many points so that I would have almost total flexibility. We are also considering using some of the points each year to send families from our church who are on the church staff and probably wouldn't be able to afford Disney otherwise. I may be a beginner because I haven't been "on the inside" as a member of DVC, but I have researched this thing eight ways to Sunday and feel pretty well informed. I'm just a Disney fanatic without a Disney fanatic husband!
CLC Tiger Pom Mom

 

[Lisa P.]

Debloco, I just wanted to mention that we've found folks (church staff & friends who necessarily budget their limited resources carefully) to be very appreciative of a 2BR or 3BR week at a very nice offsite timeshare. We live in NC and they drive their own cars to vacations. They enjoy offsite family restaurants on their evening return to these resorts. They may splurge on only one or two character meals at Disney. Offsite may suit them just fine! Some even prefer a beach week or other desirable (to them) destination rather than a WDW stay.

If someone is not already a Disney fanatic (ex., they've never even been to WDW), they really may not care whether they stay onsite or offsite. If they do choose Orlando, sometimes, what they really want is to split their time in Orlando between Magic Kingdom, Islands of Adv, Sea World, water parks and some low pressure family time at the nice resort pools! Hard to fathom, perhaps, if you are a serious Disney fan.

Whether you're planning to use it or gift it, DVC can be more pricey than some other timeshare options. It seems your DH has picked up on this. You may want to consider a DVC purchase only for the number of points that would secure the DVC vacations you really expect to take. Then another vacation ownership (less expensive resale) may provide some non-Disney (did I say that out loud?) time for your DH as well as gifting exchange weeks to folks with whom you'd like to share your good fortune. Just a thought.