Mission Accomplished

[ChrisFL]

You can always leave

Oh, yeah, nice...the country is going into the crapper because of leadership and yet I'm the one that's supposed to leave. Why don't we send Bush off to some island somewhere....

While not advocating Killing everyone, I'm not that worried about a little collateral damage either. And if they want to fight a religious war, well, we can take that to them too. (Ever read the Black Jack Pershing story of how to deal with terrorists?) We are ***** footing around, trying not to make people mad instead of going in and killing the bad guys. If they want to hid among the innocents, well then that's on them if a few innocents get hit in the process. If that were the stratagy, the "innocents" wouldn't be hiding them.

I do agree with you that the military should not be used as Peace Keepers though, their job as I stated is to break things and kill people, not be the police.

Also I think it was you that asked about Iran bombing Isreal. I am continually amazed at the restraint Isreal has showed over the years. This is purely for example, but could you imagine what we would be doing if Mexico was sending terrorists in to blow up busses and resturants etc like happens almost daily in Isreal? But I think if riled enough, that Isreal is completly capable of defending it's self. To be honest I am sort of suprised they haven't taken out Iran's reactors already.

So if collateral damage is "no big deal" what makes us NOT the bad guys? I mean "we" INVADED IRAQ with no threat to ourselves whatsoever and Bush went in expecting that we'd get a heroes welcome and that everything would be perfect after a year or so.

Instead we are perceived now by many more people over there that we are not a liberation force at all and perhaps those wackos from Al Qaeda were right, that we want to overthrow Islam. Again that's what THEIR perceptions are, because, lets face it, they don't get the news and views we have here in the west, they only hear the Al Jazeera and local cleric side of things.

 

[salmoneous]

How about we actually define what victory is, then take the shackles off the military so they can do their job, which is to kill people and break things untill the definition of victory is achieved?

The problem is there is no "victory" in Iraq that can be accomplished by killing people and breaking things. They already did that. Mission Accomplished! There's nothing else for our military to do.

Time to start coming home.

 

[salmoneous]

To be honest I am sort of suprised they haven't taken out Iran's reactors already.

Iran isn't as dumb as Iraq was. Their nuclear targets aren't just sitting out there in the open waiting to be bombed.

 

[ChrisFL]

Iran isn't as dumb as Iraq was. Their nuclear targets aren't just sitting out there in the open waiting to be bombed.

And it was reported in the media that Iran was building nuclear reactors BEFORE we invaded Iraq....yet the Bush administration said nothing about it.

 

[dcentity2000]

And it was reported in the media that Iran was building nuclear reactors BEFORE we invaded Iraq....yet the Bush administration said nothing about it.

It's obvious why. Bush decides which country to invade via a "pin the tail on the donkey" system

I mean, good grief...



Rich::

 

[capjack78]

Oh, yeah, nice...the country is going into the crapper because of leadership and yet I'm the one that's supposed to leave. Why don't we send Bush off to some island somewhere....QUOTE]

Whoever believes our country is going into the so called "crapper" has some serious reality issues.

We still live in the greatest, most powerful, most free and most prosperous nation in the world,....EVER

 

[capjack78]

Oh, yeah, nice...the country is going into the crapper because of leadership and yet I'm the one that's supposed to leave. Why don't we send Bush off to some island somewhere....




So if collateral damage is "no big deal" what makes us NOT the bad guys? I mean "we" INVADED IRAQ with no threat to ourselves whatsoever and Bush went in expecting that we'd get a heroes welcome and that everything would be perfect after a year or so.

Instead we are perceived now by many more people over there that we are not a liberation force at all and perhaps those wackos from Al Qaeda were right, that we want to overthrow Islam. Again that's what THEIR perceptions are, because, lets face it, they don't get the news and views we have here in the west, they only hear the Al Jazeera and local cleric side of things.

Whoever believes our country is going into the so called "crapper" has some serious reality issues.

We still live in the greatest, most powerful, most free and most prosperous nation in the world,....EVER

 

[Master Mason]

Oh, yeah, nice...the country is going into the crapper because of leadership and yet I'm the one that's supposed to leave. Why don't we send Bush off to some island somewhere....

Well your the one that said you weren't proud, so your the one with the problem. If you don't like it, your always welcome to leave, that's what folks do when they don't like the situation they are in.

So if collateral damage is "no big deal" what makes us NOT the bad guys? I mean "we" INVADED IRAQ with no threat to ourselves whatsoever and Bush went in expecting that we'd get a heroes welcome and that everything would be perfect after a year or so.

Instead we are perceived now by many more people over there that we are not a liberation force at all and perhaps those wackos from Al Qaeda were right, that we want to overthrow Islam. Again that's what THEIR perceptions are, because, lets face it, they don't get the news and views we have here in the west, they only hear the Al Jazeera and local cleric side of things.

I am not commenting on if we should be there or not, we are there, it is a fact, so then the question becomes how do we get out. To me the answer is to define victory, let the military do their job, achieve victory, and get the hell out.

As for Al Jazeera if we know where they brodcast from, which I am sure we do, it isn't that hard to find things like that, take it out. That would be one of those things the military can do, just as they did during WWII.

 

[Master Mason]

Iran isn't as dumb as Iraq was. Their nuclear targets aren't just sitting out there in the open waiting to be bombed.

Nuke reactors aren't that hard to find with modern technology, they are big emit lots of heat etc.

 

[salmoneous]

To me the answer is to define victory, let the military do their job, achieve victory, and get the hell out.

Victory = "Remove Saddam and the threat of his WMD."

 

[ChrisFL]

Whoever believes our country is going into the so called "crapper" has some serious reality issues.

We still live in the greatest, most powerful, most free and most prosperous nation in the world,....EVER

What exactly does "most free" mean? This is part of the problem with Americans these days, always shouting "we're the best" but other countries continue to surpass in key areas like education and health care. Yet, people here will still keep shouting it.

Compare 10 years ago to now, how we were in trade, the dollar, gas prices, budget surplus vs. deficit, trust from our allies, etc. and tell me we're still on the path to staying on top.

All economic and trade factors are pointing to a long era of uncertainty unless something major changes soon.

 

[ChrisFL]

Well your the one that said you weren't proud, so your the one with the problem. If you don't like it, your always welcome to leave, that's what folks do when they don't like the situation they are in.

No, they change leadership, hence why we have a democracy and not a dictatorship (as much as Bush would love to have a dictatorship, he does have to leave by Jan 20th, 2009)

 

[Teejay32]

Let me break it down for you in the simplest of terms because your memory of the days before 911 and right after, seem to be cloudy. Right after the 2000 election fiasco, this country was pretty much divided along party lines and it showed. Right after 911 and the weeks following it, GWB had a 90% approval rating and Americans rallied behind him, saw him as a strong leader, and looked to him for support. Myself, along with millions of others cried tears when he stood up on that WTC rubble with that bullhorn and promised those terrorists in Afghanistan, that they would be hearing from us soon. BTW, hows the hunt for UBL going? Have we found him yet? Hmmm....


He had an historical amount of support from the American people and many leaders through out the world. He used that popularity and the desire of the American people to have justice served, to go ahead and invade Iraq. Without the events of 911, there's no way the American people would have ever gave him and his staff the green light to invade. We were told that the threat from Iraq was eminent, WMDs were being produced and would be used on us.

The year of 2002 was filled with some Americans at each others throats over the prospect of war. People felt patriotism for their country and believed in the President. Others felt it was a pant load of crap he was selling us and the accusations of being UN American were flying fast and furious. Several foreign countries told us not to invade and is one of the reasons why the UN refuses to set foot in Iraq as a peace keeping force. Bush went ahead with his cowboy swagger and managed to alienate quite a few. Our image around the world was tarnished. To what degree it is, up to history to decide, but only a fool would deny it's existence.

You know this Teejay and you just don't want to admit the fact the President you still support, has poll numbers that are so deep in the toilet, that it rivals Nixon's. In the fall of 2002 the GOP made gains in the house and Senate and gave Bush a damn near bullet proof majority. He doesn't even come close to having that now, does he? He squandered away a lot of things Teejay. Trust and faith from the American people tops that list. At least Nixon was well respected overseas when he stepped down and even the former Soviet Union saw him as a good leader. Reagan left the oval office with fairly high poll numbers and the respect of the free world. I'll bet money I don't have, that we can't say that about Bush. You know it and I know it. Lets stop kidding ourselves here Teejay and admit the truth. It's the least you can do.

It's not my memory that's cloudy, it's your perception. I've been here since 9/11. World sympathy was mixed and even from our friends, sprinkled with "don't you wonder why they hate you?" or reminders that the US supported the IRA, supports Israel, supports oppressive regimes; that the Jews were behind 9/11, that Saudi Arabia was behind 9/11; that Bush himself was behind 9/11...and since then we've had a 3/11, and a 7/7 as well, and terrorists have been wreaking havoc from Bali to Moscow. I think most of the world would agree now, if polled, that fighting terrorism necessitates more than finding one Bin Laden.

We did not need a major terrorist attack to involve ourselves in Iraq; we were already involved for a list of reasons. My perception of 2002 is different than yours; I remember "a growing and gathering threat", "flaunting the UN" and "we will make no distinction between the terrorists and those who harbor them." And weekly, sometimes daily, suicide bombings in Israel. (It's funny how you don't see much of that anymore.) We have learned since then that there were some other reasons for our allies' hesitation to get on board against Iraq, which included private deals and massive UN corruption. The world, as a whole, is a diverse group that doesn't have a lot of moral authority to stand on. And never did.

 

[salmoneous]

As for Al Jazeera if we know where they brodcast from, which I am sure we do, it isn't that hard to find things like that, take it out. That would be one of those things the military can do, just as they did during WWII.

They broadcast from Qatar, one of our closest political and military allies in the region. They aren't some wacko terror organization - they are considered mainstream news by most of the Arab world. The present a diversity of views. Unfortunately, within the Arab world, there are a lot of anti-US folks (callousness towards "collateral damage" doesn't help) with views they can present. I don't thinking "taking out" Al Jazeera is going to accomplish anything good for the US.

Nuke reactors aren't that hard to find with modern technology, they are big emit lots of heat etc.

"Nuclear targets" includes a lot of things other than "hot" nuclear reactors.

 

[Master Mason]

Victory = "Remove Saddam and the threat of his WMD."

The problem was that wasn't victory, the "reason" we went in. If that was victory, we would have left because we had won.

IE, Victory in WWII ment unconditional surrender of Japan, Germany, and Italy. When we had that, the Millitary got to come home. Because victory had been achieved, and we no longer wished to kill people and break things.

 

[salmoneous]

The problem was that wasn't victory, the "reason" we went in.

That's exactly why we went in.

If that was victory, we would have left because we had won.

It was victory - Mission Accomplished! Now, as you put it, let's get the hell out. We should have done it years ago.

 

[Master Mason]

No, they change leadership, hence why we have a democracy and not a dictatorship (as much as Bush would love to have a dictatorship, he does have to leave by Jan 20th, 2009)

I am glad your such a mind reader to know that Bush wants to be a dictator. I would really be interested in when you got your skills? Or what evidence you have that shows he has attempted to move to a dictatorship?

We have changed our leaders 42 different times, peacibly, it's how we do things. But not because people aren't proud to be Americans as you stated. People that aren't proud to be americans should leave. There are a lot of folks that would be proud to be americans, to the point that they jump our borders illegally.

 

[Master Mason]

They broadcast from Qatar, one of our closest political and military allies in the region. They aren't some wacko terror organization - they are considered mainstream news by most of the Arab world. The present a diversity of views. Unfortunately, within the Arab world, there are a lot of anti-US folks (callousness towards "collateral damage" doesn't help) with views they can present. I don't thinking "taking out" Al Jazeera is going to accomplish anything good for the US.

"Nuclear targets" includes a lot of things other than "hot" nuclear reactors.

True on both cases, I was just stating there are ways to handle things, via the military, the Military doesn't opperate on political niceities, they break things and kill people as I have said a number of times.

Which gets me back to my original point. Define victory, let the military do it's job to achieve it, and then get them out of there.

 

[transparant]

It's not my memory that's cloudy, it's your perception. I've been here since 9/11. World sympathy was mixed and even from our friends, sprinkled with "don't you wonder why they hate you?" or reminders that the US supported the IRA, supports Israel, supports oppressive regimes; that the Jews were behind 9/11, that Saudi Arabia was behind 9/11; that Bush himself was behind 9/11...and since then we've had a 3/11, and a 7/7 as well, and terrorists have been wreaking havoc from Bali to Moscow. I think most of the world would agree now, if polled, that fighting terrorism necessitates more than finding one Bin Laden.

We did not need a major terrorist attack to involve ourselves in Iraq; we were already involved for a list of reasons. My perception of 2002 is different than yours; I remember "a growing and gathering threat", "flaunting the UN" and "we will make no distinction between the terrorists and those who harbor them." And weekly, sometimes daily, suicide bombings in Israel. (It's funny how you don't see much of that anymore.) We have learned since then that there were some other reasons for our allies' hesitation to get on board against Iraq, which included private deals and massive UN corruption. The world, as a whole, is a diverse group that doesn't have a lot of moral authority to stand on. And never did.

Fantastic post teejay.

 

[ChrisFL]

I am glad your such a mind reader to know that Bush wants to be a dictator. I would really be interested in when you got your skills? Or what evidence you have that shows he has attempted to move to a dictatorship?

We have changed our leaders 42 different times, peacibly, it's how we do things. But not because people aren't proud to be Americans as you stated. People that aren't proud to be americans should leave. There are a lot of folks that would be proud to be americans, to the point that they jump our borders illegally.

"If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." - George W. Bush (December 18, 2000)

The rest I'm ignoring because it isn't worth the effort to explain why I used to be proud of the U.S. but that doesn't mean I'm the one that needs to leave.

Dissent is patriotic, another thing that Bush apologists don't seem to understand.