mini-rant

[mesaboy2]

I love the FP system now, more than what it was like before. I hated it when people would just come whenever they pleased instead of the actual time, made lines longer really.

Unless people used the extra time to clone themselves, I don't see how.

 

[Heidi Lou]

Maybe bc a certain number of passes are put out for a certain time period...say a a group gets them for during a parade and decide theyll just go back later and go when it is done...then they are stacked on top of the people who have passes for that actualy time slot. I dont know how that doesnt make sense!

 

[davmill]

I always enjoyed the FP system....kind of hard to ride and go through everything there unless you spend a few days. we generally just get the FP for the rides / attractions we really want to see and go to those... the rest is just sightseeing.

 

[goofyernmost]

Not to sound rude or anything but I was at WDW this past week (June 2nd-9th) and the FP lines may have been rather long at times, but the lines moved way faster than the stand-by lines and the longest I may have been in line for in the FP line was 15 minutes compared to the long stand-by wait time.

Personally I loved the allocated time that you are supposed to return at, and I didn't try to get a fastpass for every ride that had the FP capability, some of the rides that have the FP option imo aren't worth the FP at all.

If people had no time restrictions for the fast pass, I'm rather certain that there would be no point in having a FP because both the Stand-by line & FP line would be the same amount of time instead of a shorter wait period. They'd just have two stand-by lines instead of an actual shorter wait time.

I love the FP system now, more than what it was like before. I hated it when people would just come whenever they pleased instead of the actual time, made lines longer really.

That post is partially true, but not completely all day long.

Unless people used the extra time to clone themselves, I don't see how.

OK, one possibility (as possible as any scenario) let's say that it's 4 PM. There is a group of people that have FP's for the 4 PM range and they all decide to stay within the window. Now lets assume, just for fun, that that amounts to 50 FP's. Now there are another group of 50 FP holders that just by chance got earlier times and decided to wait until after the 3 PM parade to go to that ride. Also there were about 50 FP holders that were holding FP's for the times between 3 PM and 4 PM and now since the parade is over they head for the attraction as well.

Now you have 150 people in the FP line during that 4 PM window where there only should have been 50. Won't that slow down the standby line by huge amounts? How could it not? Granted during the 3 PM parade there was hardly anyone at the attraction since most were watching the parade so FP probably wasn't even necessary making the standby line move along pretty fast. But, those normally in standby might like to watch the parade as well, so they didn't go to the attraction at that time. I won't say that the standby line will be a lot faster all the time, but it sure would have been during that 4 PM time without all the "extra" FP riders.

And if someone is concerned about being "spontaneous" in their touring plans, then leave the FP's alone and go without them, then you can go to any attraction anytime you want. Mileage and wait times may vary! If you get to an attraction and the wait time is too long, spontaneously move on to the next one and come back later. That's how it was done for years and WDW grew and grew and grew.

 

[WillAustin]

Maybe bc a certain number of passes are put out for a certain time period...say a a group gets them for during a parade and decide theyll just go back later and go when it is done...then they are stacked on top of the people who have passes for that actualy time slot. I dont know how that doesnt make sense!

And so, instead, people who otherwise would have waited longer make it through the standby line faster since the people "in front of them" didnt show up yet. And then later they can raise the loading ratio of FP to standby temporarily to keep the FP line short if it gets too long. It evens out. That makes at least as much sense too. During busy times, when rides are basically full, for every person that came late, someone else got to ride in their place earlier.

Guess I'm trying to ride the dead horse...

I won't say that the standby line will be a lot faster all the time, but it sure would have been during that 4 PM time without all the "extra" FP riders.

I don't think I've seen anyone complaining about late returners affecting the standby line. All the discussion was geared toward the length of the FP line.

I think standby times are only going to get worse with the added FPs and new system.

 

[laura_<3]

I am not being mean here but i have to say until disboards i didnt even know you could go back at a later time or whatever. What't the point of having a time on a FP if you dont enforce it. It is kind of Disney's fault for allowing it so long, but seriously to me it's one of those "a rule is a rule" type of thing. Abusing a system point in place to help people not have as long of wait times is ruining it for people who actually do follow the FP system. Who even thinks to use it at another time is just not setting a good example for other in my opinion. People getting mad because they are finally being told to do what is supposed to be done anyway??? just dont understand that!

Same here. We didn't know you could use FP's after the time on the FP until reading on the DIS.

 

[mesaboy2]

OK, one possibility (as possible as any scenario) let's say that it's 4 PM. There is a group of people that have FP's for the 4 PM range and they all decide to stay within the window. Now lets assume, just for fun, that that amounts to 50 FP's. Now there are another group of 50 FP holders that just by chance got earlier times and decided to wait until after the 3 PM parade to go to that ride. Also there were about 50 FP holders that were holding FP's for the times between 3 PM and 4 PM and now since the parade is over they head for the attraction as well.

Now you have 150 people in the FP line during that 4 PM window where there only should have been 50. Won't that slow down the standby line by huge amounts? How could it not? Granted during the 3 PM parade there was hardly anyone at the attraction since most were watching the parade so FP probably wasn't even necessary making the standby line move along pretty fast. But, those normally in standby might like to watch the parade as well, so they didn't go to the attraction at that time. I won't say that the standby line will be a lot faster all the time, but it sure would have been during that 4 PM time without all the "extra" FP riders.

And if someone is concerned about being "spontaneous" in their touring plans, then leave the FP's alone and go without them, then you can go to any attraction anytime you want. Mileage and wait times may vary! If you get to an attraction and the wait time is too long, spontaneously move on to the next one and come back later. That's how it was done for years and WDW grew and grew and grew.

I know we've danced before but I guess I'm bored, so I'll try again. To the bold:

1. The way I read your scenario, 100 people have FPs within the window, so "only" 50 are late. Your portion in bold assumes 100 are.

2. Will that extra 50 slow down the FP queue at that moment in time--yeah. But, did not those same 50 people not going through earlier over the course of the day speed it up by the same amount? Isn't it a net wash? Especially if the FP queue is never empty? Is this last assumption the flaw you see in my position? Why does a re-ordering of faceless people through a queue before you change your wait? Isn't a re-ordering all we're talking about?

Your move.

And before anyone does, don't read this as frustration or anger or bitterness about the new system. I've adjusted--really I have. I've been twice now since March 7 and got along fine, with no real perceptible difference in wait times to me. I am simply intrigued by the mathematics of the problem.

 

[larryz]

I think standby times are only going to get worse with the added FPs and new system.

I heard the Chinese were adding another level of the afterlife -- "Stand-by Line at Space Mountain."

 

[WillAustin]

And before anyone does, don't read this as frustration or anger or bitterness about the new system. I've adjusted--really I have. I've been twice now since March 7 and got along fine, with no real perceptible difference in wait times to me. I am simply intrigued by the mathematics of the problem.

That goes for me as well. I'm not complaining about the new enforcement either. We use a touring plan and I'm the FPV, and I'm not worried about our trio this week.

I actually enjoy the discussion of the mechanics of it.

 

[ftballfan7]

Questions:

1. Why did Disney strictly enforce FP return windows when they first rolled out the FP program?
2. When did they widely start accepting FPs late? Year?
3. Ignorance? Much like your ignorance when you stated that the only reason for the return window on the FP from the beginning was merely a psychological attempt by Disney of modifying behavior? Or have you seen copies of this as well?

Answers:

1. I don't know. (ignorant in that regard)
2. I don't know. (ignorant in that regard)
3. Most of this is not really a question, but you are not quoting me correctly. I never said "the only reason for the return window on the FP from the beginning was merely a psychological attempt by Disney of modifying behavior" I gave an explanation as to why the return times were left on when it was policy to accept them after that time and that is to influence behavior. The rest you chose to add/alter to bolster your argument. If you don't think Disney and other entities make many decisions to influence your behavior, you are sorely mistaken (I will refrain from re-using the term ignorant). They absolutely do. Everything from how comfortable the seats are in the restaurants, to what music is being played and at what volume, to where and how merchendise is displayed is all designed to influence behavior. The list could go on for pages.

 

[Planogirl]

I do sympathize because you were in the habit of touring in a certain way and Disney is forcing you to change. That is a huge hassle without question. Coming back in the window really isn't so bad once you get used to it though.

I do believe that you are correct in saying that this change is just one step of many. I'm a little leery of what's to come.

 

[tallen429]

There have been several of these type threads and I'm sure someone has said this but if not...

I'm sorry I can't quote the article I read a while back, but it clearly stated that the number of people who were "in the know" about using late fast pass return was statistically insignificant and caused no discernable issues or delay at FP return entrances.

For that reason it simply makes no sense to me that they changed the "rule" since it clearly wasn't an issue for most guests.

I'm one who figures they are setting people who like the flexibility up for a "pay" option to do it.

 

[g-dad66]

We were at MK today and what I noticed is that the windows were no more than 1 - 2 hours out and that the FP lines actually went FAST.

I will say , as we just got back, that the lines in the evening are much shorter.

I have not had to wait 5 minutes when I return compared to 20 minutes or more before.

The fastpass lines have been consistently longer in all the parks.

We could get fast passes much later into the day than before. And the fp lines seemed to be moving much more quickly too.

FP lines seemed longer too but that could have just been my perception.

Any of you care to vote in this poll?
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2912572

Would like to see more data there.

 

[goofyernmost]

I know we've danced before but I guess I'm bored, so I'll try again. To the bold:

1. The way I read your scenario, 100 people have FPs within the window, so "only" 50 are late. Your portion in bold assumes 100 are.

2. Will that extra 50 slow down the FP queue at that moment in time--yeah. But, did not those same 50 people not going through earlier over the course of the day speed it up by the same amount? Isn't it a net wash? Especially if the FP queue is never empty? Is this last assumption the flaw you see in my position? Why does a re-ordering of faceless people through a queue before you change your wait? Isn't a re-ordering all we're talking about?

Your move.

And before anyone does, don't read this as frustration or anger or bitterness about the new system. I've adjusted--really I have. I've been twice now since March 7 and got along fine, with no real perceptible difference in wait times to me. I am simply intrigued by the mathematics of the problem.

OK...I said 100 extra and that's what I explained. Only 50 are there in the window, as they should be. 50 others got there FP's way earlier and held them until after the parade and 50 more got them for the 3 to 4 time slot and went to the parade instead only to return after. That amounts to 150 with only 50 there at the time they were assigned. The remainder should have already used them before the 4 o'clock window. Done, over with and on to something else. Instead they are in the FP line slowing everything down including the Standby line and the FP line.

I don't know how much of a real problem that created but I can certainly see that there would be occasions when it would be very problematic. As far as FP is concerned, frankly, I have seen no real difference personally between before and after, but I have experienced a huge difference while in the Standby line. It is all a matter of when one was where!

Mathematically...If a train leaves Chicago at 4 PM traveling East at 60 MPH and another train leaves New York at 5 PM traveling West at 55 MPH at what time will the passenger in car number three of the first train get hungry? It's the same kind of problem...way to many variables and unexplained details. My guess would be 5:30 because that when I would get hungry, but feel free to guess one yourself it's possible that one of us is correct.

 

[UNCFanatik]

Answers:

1. I don't know. (ignorant in that regard)
2. I don't know. (ignorant in that regard)
3. Most of this is not really a question, but you are not quoting me correctly. I never said "the only reason for the return window on the FP from the beginning was merely a psychological attempt by Disney of modifying behavior" I gave an explanation as to why the return times were left on when it was policy to accept them after that time and that is to influence behavior. The rest you chose to add/alter to bolster your argument. If you don't think Disney and other entities make many decisions to influence your behavior, you are sorely mistaken (I will refrain from re-using the term ignorant). They absolutely do. Everything from how comfortable the seats are in the restaurants, to what music is being played and at what volume, to where and how merchendise is displayed is all designed to influence behavior. The list could go on for pages.

Of course i recognize Disney's attempt in marketing. All companies do so. But what I dispute is that the sole or partial reason that they put an end time on the FP return window is a psychological one. They put the time on them because that is what they intended to enforce when they implemented the FP program. You have failed to present any evidence for your speculation. Disney, through their actions, still intended the majority of its guests to use the FP the way they designed the program. They started relaxing enforcement for whatever reason and it was in an acceptable margin so they let people in the know, use FP past their return window. Disney, again through their actions, never meant for all of their guests to use the FP past the return window.

 

[mesaboy2]

OK...I said 100 extra and that's what I explained. Only 50 are there in the window, as they should be. 50 others got there FP's way earlier and held them until after the parade and 50 more got them for the 3 to 4 time slot and went to the parade instead only to return after. That amounts to 150 with only 50 there at the time the were assigned. The remainder should have already used them before the 4 o'clock window. Done, over with and on to something else. Instead they are in the FP line slowing everything down including the Standby line and the FP line.

I don't know how much of a real problem that created but I can certainly see that there would be occasions when it would be very problematic. As far as FP is concerned, frankly, I have seen no real difference personally between before and after, but I have experienced a huge difference while in the Standby line. It is all a matter of when one was where!

My questions are the same whether the number late is 50 or 100. Soooo, not gonna try other than "there would be occasions when it would be very problematic"?

 

[Bob NC]

I hate it when Disney changes anything. Just for this I refuse to have anything to do with FastPass anymore. Their changes always make things more difficult.

On my next visit I'll just pretend Fast Pass doesn't even exist and just satisfy myself doing my favorite things, riding Horizons and the Skyway and eating at The Top of The World and the Empress Lily Room.

 

[goofyernmost]

My questions are the same whether the number late is 50 or 100. Soooo, not gonna try other than "there would be occasions when it would be very problematic"?

Sorry I should have read the question a little slower. Bottom line...the only time it matters to individuals is when they are actually in one line or the other. What or where someone should have been previous to our entering the line (either one) is of no relevance to us...nor is what happens after we have left the attraction. It would have mattered to whomever was in line before or after, but that's not everybody.

If you weren't lucky enough to be in the lines when the "skippers" were skipping it doesn't have any effect on you at all. In my scenario it would only matter to those that were there at 4 O'clock. History is past, future hasn't arrived. I've said it before, I'll say it again. In life...timing is everything.

 

[mesaboy2]

Sorry I should have read the question a little slower. Bottom line...the only time it matters to individuals is when they are actually in one line or the other. What or where someone should have been previous to our entering the line (either one) is of no relevance to us...nor is what happens after we have left the attraction. It would have mattered to whomever was in line before or after, but that's not everybody.

If you weren't lucky enough to be in the lines when the "skippers" were skipping it doesn't have any effect on you at all. In my scenario it would only matter to those that were there at 4 O'clock. History is past, future hasn't arrived. I've said it before, I'll say it again. In life...timing is everything.

Sounds like its more of a perceptual thing to you then, maybe? If so, I think that's pretty common here.

Maybe that's our problem connecting to each other. I want to talk about the overall mathematics going on and you want to talk about what you see when you get in line. I can't debate that.

 

[Colleen27]

How hard can it possibly be? You get a fastpass and then you use it. Unless it is for a lot later, you can't have that many at a time. You just stay in the area until you can use it.

I don't get how hard of a thing it is.

Where do you kill 5 hours around Soarin? Around TSM? Using FPs within their window results in either a lot of killing time or a lot of extra walking. Regardless of how you feel about the change, there's no denying that, and it has reduced the usability of the system. I went into our most recent trip thinking it wouldn't be so bad; I came home feeling like I'd gladly pay the rumors $80pp price for FP+ to avoid trying to figure out how to fill 6 hours on a FP return without walking the entire length of the park an extra time or lurking around a ride waiting for the FP return to advance to something you can work with.

And predictably, the standby lines are moving more slowly in the peak of the day when they're the longest now. I say predictably because now you have the people who always used their FPs within the windows, plus the people who would otherwise have used them late. We counted a 4:1 FP to standby loading ratio at BTMRR mid-day and the line was posting over an hour. Before, the tendency to return late actually made lines move more smoothly at the busiest times of day, then slowed them down later in the evening when the crowds have ebbed. Enforcement has increased ride demand at peak hours, while drawing riders away from the off-peak final hours of the day.