Middle Class Priced Out???

[Jen and Ashwin]

Not exactly...most cruises charge significantly less for a 3rd or 4th passenger in a room. This does not mean it HAS to be a child, but it is likely that many cruising families can take advantage of the large 3rd and 4th guest discounts (and sometimes, there are 3rd and 4th passengers or kids sail free that make this advantage even better)...

On my upcoming cruise, my 1st 2 cabin guests were $569/fares with $25 OBC...my 3rd was $249 with same OBC.

Whenever I have priced cruises, it has not been significantly cheaper for additional guests. I said that there needed to be a promotion in effect, at least that is true for Royal Caribbean. For example, when I pull up a cruise fare on RC right now and put in 2 adults, the fare is $782.75 per person. When I put in 2 adults, 2 kids it also comes out to $782.75 per person. But when you look at the breakdown, the fare with 2 adults, 2 kids show the price for the adults higher and the price for the kids less even though the average price per person is exactly the same. You need a special promotion that makes kids either free or reduces the cost of additional passengers, as I said. The difference in pricing that they show is a marketing ploy to make you think kids are cheaper. They just redistribute the expense between adults and children but the average remains exactly the same.

 

[TwoMisfits]

Whenever I have priced cruises, it has not been significantly cheaper for additional guests. I said that there needed to be a promotion in effect, at least that is true for Royal Caribbean. For example, when I pull up a cruise fare on RC right now and put in 2 adults, the fare is $782.75 per person. When I put in 2 adults, 2 kids it also comes out to $782.75 per person. But when you look at the breakdown, the fare with 2 adults, 2 kids show the price for the adults higher and the price for the kids less even though the average price per person is exactly the same. You need a special promotion that makes kids either free or reduces the cost of additional passengers, as I said. The difference in pricing that they show is a marketing ploy to make you think kids are cheaper. They just redistribute the expense between adults and children but the average remains exactly the same.

Try Carnival - you literally see the fares on your invoice...3rd and 4th are always way cheaper...

Threw in a random Carnival.com search on cheapest cruises they run...best price listed as $444/person on lowest interior on Feb 4, 2018 cruise from Baltimore to Bahamas...once you add a 3rd person, it becomes $353/person b/c the 3rd person is so cheap at only $169 for the week...

I did cruise Royal once...wasn't my type of line, but the ship breaking and getting back 12 hours late was probably coloring my experience...Disney was fine but too pricey, so we've settled on non-party cruises on Carnival (the longer ones) b/c they offer us the cheaper 3rd and 4th fares...

 

[Jen and Ashwin]

Try Carnival - you literally see the fares on your invoice...3rd and 4th are always way cheaper...

That is what I am saying, the RC invoice shows the 3rd and 4th as cheaper, but if you actually look at the prices between just 2 adults or 2 adults, 2 kids, the average price is exactly the same. I just did the same experiment right now with Carnival and the price was less for the 3 and 4, but only by $75 pp. I mean, is that really much different than Disney's kids discount over a 7 day vacation?

 

[TwoMisfits]

That is what I am saying, the RC invoice shows the 3rd and 4th as cheaper, but if you actually look at the prices between just 2 adults or 2 adults, 2 kids, the average price is exactly the same. I just did the same experiment right now with Carnival and the price was less for the 3 and 4, but only by $75 pp. I mean, is that really much different than Disney's kids discount over a 7 day vacation?

Not sure how you found a cruise like that...you must have found the uber-cheap Carnival ones, b/c anything above $400 will save you $230 on interior rooms and $150 on outside rooms min for 3rd and 4th passengers (since for a week, they tend to be $169 and $249)...the 1st 2 fares don't change when you look at your invoice (although their calculator gives you an "average price per passenger" probably to help those who ware splitting fees to go on the cruise)...

 

[Jen and Ashwin]

Not sure how you found a cruise like that...you must have found the uber-cheap Carnival ones, b/c anything above $400 will save you $240 on interior rooms and $140 on outside rooms min for 3rd and 4th passengers (since for a week, they tend to be $169 and $269)...the 1st 2 fares don't change when you look at your invoice (although their calculator gives you an "average price per passenger" probably to help those who ware splitting fees to go on the cruise)...

It was a cruise that cost $649.25 per adult for a 7 night Caribbean ocean view stateroom. Honestly, I feel like you just want to argue that Disney is terrible and everywhere else there are deals, but in reality, it all depends on what you are willing to pay or sacrifice on a vacation. I wouldn't sail on Carnival even if the rate for 4 guests was much less than for 2 per person on average, but that is because I think RC is nicer, I have diamond status with them and I prefer the food much more. But that is my personal preference and I am willing to pay that extra $150-$300 for a week because I value those features. Just like some people want to stay on site at Disney, etc.

 

[Tink_83]

Hmm I have to disagree. Disney (the kids adventure place) should be attractive for kids. Kids prices should not be $10 cheaper than that of an adult priced ticket. Whether I have one kid or 6, Disney, Universal and SeaWorld should all have something approaching half priced children (under 16) ticket prices. The way they price it now is ridiculous, and the only thing that comes to mind is "why bother" having kids prices.

I have 4 kids. This year I am flying down to Florida on points on my visa, plus cash tickets. I am staying on site at CBBR in Universal which will set me back $2000. My flights will likely be $2000 K when all said and done. I will stay a week close to Busch Gardens at a h0tel and pay $1700 for the week. Then perhaps a week in Clearwater - Indian Rocks for a cost of around $2200 for a week. Add on tickets for Universal and Volcano - estimate $1800 for 5 day passes or APs. Tickets for Busch Gardens and Seaworld are included in my Hotel package which is awesome. We dont bother with Disney. Then I have to feed my family for 3 weeks. Since we are hoteling it, and not renting homes this time around, then it is potentially $150-200 per day, which will add up. $800 for a minivan. Is anyone adding this up? I might be putting myself off here. Its getting depressing.

I have been to Florida 5 times in the last 7 years. I put 10-15K into the local / US economy. The best value for money I get is at Busch Gardens and, quite frankly, my kids prefer it over Disney. Then Universal is next. To be honest, the water Parks amount to our best days out. Staying at a Vacation Home is better, but my wife wants the kids to have an onsite experience.

Looks like I am in to 12 grand when all is said and done. Its not cheap, Half priced childrens tickets would perhaps take a little off the sting, but not a whole lot.

Your going on a 3 week vacation that includes multiple theme parks. It's not the size of your family but the length of your vacation! Seriously who even gets that much vacation time! I can't imagine taking that kind of time off of work! Consider yourself fortunate to get that kind of vacation time and to be able to use it all at once.

 

[TwoMisfits]

It was a cruise that cost $649.25 per adult for a 7 night Caribbean ocean view stateroom. Honestly, I feel like you just want to argue that Disney is terrible and everywhere else there are deals, but in reality, it all depends on what you are willing to pay or sacrifice on a vacation. I wouldn't sail on Carnival even if the rate for 4 guests was much less than for 2 per person on average, but that is because I think RC is nicer, I have diamond status with them and I prefer the food much more. But that is my personal preference and I am willing to pay that extra $150-$300 for a week because I value those features. Just like some people want to stay on site at Disney, etc.

Okay, I'll ignore the personal attacks and focus on the issue you seem to have with me...that I say Disney has lost some of its VALUE.

First, we're on a BUDGET board, so we are supposed to be discussing how to save/find value in things.

Second, saying something has lost VALUE does not equal saying something IS TERRIBLE! Value is based on QUALITY PLUS PRICE. When a few years ago, beef prices skyrocketed and 80% ground beef was $6.99/lb (with all other beef higher), the beef still tasted the same to me, but it lost VALUE, b/c it still tasted the same to me but now had a higher price, and I stopped purchasing it til the price went down. In Disney's case, no one disputes the price of everything in Disney has skyrocketed (with little improvement in the product) and it has not equally skyrocketed at other destinations/amusement parks/theme parks. But hasn't Disney always been the highest price? Yes and No. They were always priced the most of any theme park or amusement park, but now they are literally 2x-almost 10x the cost of other parks. (As an example park - pick any one you want) A Busch Gardens season pass for $80 for 2 parks vs a Disney non-Florida annual pass for $800+. Single day tickets for $40/summer day at Busch Gardens vs $125/summer day at Disney. Busch Gardens is not as good as Disney, but it is not 3x-10x worse than Disney, especially for families that do not have fanatic fans of Disney. So for them, Disney has probably definitely lost value vs its competitors.

Third, we are talking about the MIDDLE CLASS. I'm a card carrying member according to the survey posted here, and as one, I know that when prices go up, middle class members have to make substitutions or trade offs. Substitutions in this case are new vacation sites. Trade offs are less days, offsite, no meals, etc. I choose to make substitutions while other middle class posters have made trade offs...

I wish Disney was like what it was when I went through the Disney Institute as a college student. I wish it was what it was when I turned my spouse into a fan. But it's not, especially in its pricing. Maybe it's b/c Disney taught me customer service and "the Disney way" that I can be hard on them when it's obvious they are abandoning what they themselves preached to business interns back in the day. The lessons I post here are not just the ones I learned in business school, but are the ones Disney, at the turn of the millennium, was preaching itself - don't look for every last dollar, always make the customer happy, etc...

 

[Tink_83]

Okay, I'll ignore the personal attacks and focus on the issue you seem to have with me...that I say Disney has lost some of its VALUE.

First, we're on a BUDGET board, so we are supposed to be discussing how to save/find value in things.

Second, saying something has lost VALUE does not equal saying something IS TERRIBLE! Value is based on QUALITY PLUS PRICE. When a few years ago, beef prices skyrocketed and 80% ground beef was $6.99/lb (with all other beef higher), the beef still tasted the same to me, but it lost VALUE, b/c it still tasted the same to me but now had a higher price, and I stopped purchasing it til the price went down. In Disney's case, no one disputes the price of everything in Disney has skyrocketed (with little improvement in the product) and it has not equally skyrocketed at other destinations/amusement parks/theme parks. But hasn't Disney always been the highest price? Yes and No. They were always priced the most of any theme park or amusement park, but now they are literally 2x-almost 10x the cost of other parks. (As an example park - pick any one you want) A Busch Gardens season pass for $80 for 2 parks vs a Disney non-Florida annual pass for $800+. Single day tickets for $40/summer day at Busch Gardens vs $125/summer day at Disney. Busch Gardens is not as good as Disney, but it is not 3x-10x worse than Disney, especially for families that do not have fanatic fans of Disney. So for them, Disney has probably definitely lost value vs its competitors.

Third, we are talking about the MIDDLE CLASS. I'm a card carrying member according to the survey posted here, and as one, I know that when prices go up, middle class members have to make substitutions or trade offs. Substitutions in this case are new vacation sites. Trade offs are less days, offsite, no meals, etc. I choose to make substitutions while other middle class posters have made trade offs...

I wish Disney was like what it was when I went through the Disney Institute as a college student. I wish it was what it was when I turned my spouse into a fan. But it's not, especially in its pricing. Maybe it's b/c Disney taught me customer service and "the Disney way" that I can be hard on them when it's obvious they are abandoning what they themselves preached to business interns back in the day. The lessons I post here are not just the ones I learned in business school, but are the ones Disney, at the turn of the millennium, was preaching itself - don't look for every last dollar, always make the customer happy, etc...

I think the issue here is that some people will find that Disney still has value to them (I love seeing my child's face light up for the character meet and greets) and others don't see the value for their family. Both are acceptable opinions to have since value is very personal.

The other point I will make is supply and demand, Disney parks have an upper limit to the number of people that they can accommodate. To address this they can build out (they have to some extent in the MK) add other parks (those don't hold the same appeal to me as the MK and Epcot, again personal preference) and raise prices to limit the number of people that are willing / able to afford to go.

While I wish they could just continue to build out the MK to accommodate larger numbers of guests and Therefore drop the price they are not doing that... it makes me sad but it is what it is.

There will eventually be an upper limit to how much I am willing to spend on my short Disney vacations but right now I'm in the willing to go camp... but again that is what works for my family. If my daughter was 13 Instead of 4 i may be less interested in Disney and more likely to visit Busch gardens (or Europe)! As it is we don't do a week at Disney but a couple of days. A taste and then something else because that is what works for us.

 

[Ciao Mickey]

Wdw' s prices have gone up more than anything else except maybe college tuition.

We were cleaning out my mother's closet last year and came across her Disney box where she kept all her resort cards from previous trips, maps, etc and miscellaneous resort receipts.

One was from our stay at the Contemporary at Christmas 2000 (12/20-28). We had a tower room with a magic kingdom view. We paid $189 per night. That same room today is $907 per night. I don't think salaries have increased at that rate.

The room rate that we got back then was a 50% off Florida resident rate and back then as long as one day was under a discounted rate it carried throughout your stay, which they no longer allow you to do.

 

[Tinkerfan2005]

Yes and no. I look at it like this. If it is something that can make memories for my family. Something we can't do locally and want to do, we will find a way to do it. It takes planning and saving to do it. I will gladly give up trips to the pool and dinners out to see the look on my kids' face when they got to meet their favorite characters.

 

[kymom99]

Wdw' s prices have gone up more than anything else except maybe college tuition.

We were cleaning out my mother's closet last year and came across her Disney box where she kept all her resort cards from previous trips, maps, etc and miscellaneous resort receipts.

One was from our stay at the Contemporary at Christmas 2000 (12/20-28). We had a tower room with a magic kingdom view. We paid $189 per night. That same room today is $907 per night. I don't think salaries have increased at that rate.

The room rate that we got back then was a 50% off Florida resident rate and back then as long as one day was under a discounted rate it carried throughout your stay, which they no longer allow you to do.

That's another point I hadn't thought of. They went to a pricing structure for resort rooms where they charge more for weekend nights. Granted, many hotels do this, but as you said, discounts aren't as good or as "friendly" as they once were. I had a pin code for my last trip in 2010 and got CBR preferred for $132 a night in June. I recently got another code and the price with discount was $215 I think for a standard room. Preferred wasn't available for the date I used to test out the code.

 

[Nubiwan]

I just don't agree and think this isn't a reasonable expectation. Many other vacations cost just as much for kids. Cruises are a perfect example, unless there is a special promotion, kids cost just as much as adults. A plane ticket isn't cheaper because it is a child (with the exclusion of lap children). Hotel rooms don't get cheaper because you have 2 adults and 2 children staying in a room versus 4 adults.

Sure, but at $200 for and adult (age 10 and over), and $190 for kids under 10, who are they trying to Erm "kid"? My post wasn't a complaint. I've always thought the ticket pricing rather stupid. 3 of my 4 kids are adult anyway. Why bother with the charade?

What about airline prices? I send freight, I pay by weight. Why can't passenger fares be the same? A silly argument perhaps, but....

Why should I pay full airline price for my kid who weighs 80 lbs as that guy who takes up 2 seats weighing in at 300 lbs? Guy or girl who weighs more than all 4 of my kids. Lots of instances where families pay more for less value. I am guessing it's cheaper to take a dog on a plane, if not free.

My 5th trip to Florida with my family. I can afford it, but can empathize with those think prices are just ridiculous for what you get. Still feel water park days are among our best experiences in Florida. Always have been ....

 

[Nubiwan]

Your going on a 3 week vacation that includes multiple theme parks. It's not the size of your family but the length of your vacation! Seriously who even gets that much vacation time! I can't imagine taking that kind of time off of work! Consider yourself fortunate to get that kind of vacation time and to be able to use it all at once.

Woah, easy there. Simply stating what we do when we vacay. Was neither agreeing with nor opposing the OP. Florida is a significant expense that I am willing to throw money at because I get 3 - 4 weeks seeing my kids smile, and we are all together as a family. This is our 5th Florida year. Guess I sympathize with those who don't have the means. It is expensive. If we had better weather where we live, then I honestly would not bother with Florida. As it is, if I am forking out a few grand on a trip, then I like to maximize the length of my holiday. 2 weeks just not enough to for me.

It is mainly the US that restricts it citizens to puny annual vacations. My country is not much better, but slighty. Many European countries enjoy 4-8 weeks of paid annual leave. You need to discuss that with your Union rep.

 

[cjbcam]

Disney is definitely pricing us out. I've finally got my DH to like WDW as much as I do and he told me to book another trip. I can't even believe I told him no maybe in a couple years. We have a family of six and our oldest starts high school next year so we can't take her out of school for many days. We only fly and stay if we can go for 2 weeks because paying for 6 flights is crazy expensive. I think we will wait until she's 16 and can drive to the airport (we live 2 hours away from closest airport) and meet us there mid trip. We may just wait until Star Wars land opens.

 

[Jen and Ashwin]

Sure, but at $200 for and adult (age 10 and over), and $190 for kids under 10, who are they trying to Erm "kid"? My post wasn't a complaint. I've always thought the ticket pricing rather stupid. 3 of my 4 kids are adult anyway. Why bother with the charade?

What about airline prices? I send freight, I pay by weight. Why can't passenger fares be the same? A silly argument perhaps, but....

Why should I pay full airline price for my kid who weighs 80 lbs as that guy who takes up 2 seats weighing in at 300 lbs? Guy or girl who weighs more than all 4 of my kids. Lots of instances where families pay more for less value. I am guessing it's cheaper to take a dog on a plane, if not free.

My 5th trip to Florida with my family. I can afford it, but can empathize with those think prices are just ridiculous for what you get. Still feel water park days are among our best experiences in Florida. Always have been ....

You are paying for an airline seat, of which they are limited. In general, it doesn't matter how much a person weighs as long as they take up a single seat because that is the limited factor that airlines are selling. Your packages all ship either in dedicated freight planes or in the cargo hold of commercial planes, neither of which you can or would do, so it is a really silly distinction that you are trying to make there.

Only service dogs fly for free. The family pet will cost anywhere from $70-$200 to be in the cabin or $200-$300 as checked baggage, depending on the airline. Some airlines charge taxes and fees on top of these costs. So you may end up spending more to take Fido than you did to take your children.

I find the argument that children should cost less to be generally silly. In relation to food, sure, kids generally eat less than adults and so I can understand a discount. But in relation to accommodations were adults and children are fungible, it makes little sense to me. A kid in line for 7DMT takes up as much space on the ride as an adult when they get to the front. If a business needs to deeply discount children in order to ensure customers, then that is a marketing model they have adopted. It doesn't seem Disney needs to do this, along with many businesses such as Universal, cruise lines, movie theaters, etc.

 

[Darcy03231]

Your going on a 3 week vacation that includes multiple theme parks. It's not the size of your family but the length of your vacation! Seriously who even gets that much vacation time! I can't imagine taking that kind of time off of work! Consider yourself fortunate to get that kind of vacation time and to be able to use it all at once.

There are a lot of people on these boards that have significant vacation time and spend it traveling. Some have been with their jobs for years. Where I work you can accumulate 6 weeks of vacation time a year. My SIL had earned 13 weeks of vacation time a year by the time she retired. Those living outside the US usually get more vacation time per year. When traveling a distance it can be much more economical to stay longer due to travel costs.

This year we have the following trips on the books:

May - 7 day cruise
June - 5 day Camping/Kayaking trip
August - 7 day cruise (for 10 people) followed by 4 days/3 nights at WDW (just DH & I)
October - 2 weeks in Grenada
February - 2 weeks in Costa Rica

We're now also looking at several other trips in 2018, including the Canary Islands and China.

 

[veelachanel]

I think the pricing is a bit outrageous if you want to go all out. There are plenty of ways to go cheaply, but then you are ruining some of the fun of being on vacation.

 

[Tink_83]

There are a lot of people on these boards that have significant vacation time and spend it traveling. Some have been with their jobs for years. Where I work you can accumulate 6 weeks of vacation time a year. My SIL had earned 13 weeks of vacation time a year by the time she retired. Those living outside the US usually get more vacation time per year. When traveling a distance it can be much more economical to stay longer due to travel costs.

This year we have the following trips on the books:

May - 7 day cruise
June - 5 day Camping/Kayaking trip
August - 7 day cruise (for 10 people) followed by 4 days/3 nights at WDW (just DH & I)
October - 2 weeks in Grenada
February - 2 weeks in Costa Rica

We're now also looking at several other trips in 2018, including the Canary Islands and China.

If you can afford that your not middle class. Which is what this thread is about.

 

[Nubiwan]

You are paying for an airline seat, of which they are limited. In general, it doesn't matter how much a person weighs as long as they take up a single seat because that is the limited factor that airlines are selling. Your packages all ship either in dedicated freight planes or in the cargo hold of commercial planes, neither of which you can or would do, so it is a really silly distinction that you are trying to make there.

Only service dogs fly for free. The family pet will cost anywhere from $70-$200 to be in the cabin or $200-$300 as checked baggage, depending on the airline. Some airlines charge taxes and fees on top of these costs. So you may end up spending more to take Fido than you did to take your children.

I find the argument that children should cost less to be generally silly. In relation to food, sure, kids generally eat less than adults and so I can understand a discount. But in relation to accommodations were adults and children are fungible, it makes little sense to me. A kid in line for 7DMT takes up as much space on the ride as an adult when they get to the front. If a business needs to deeply discount children in order to ensure customers, then that is a marketing model they have adopted. It doesn't seem Disney needs to do this, along with many businesses such as Universal, cruise lines, movie theaters, etc.

Woah there x 2

Prices for theme park tickets at Disney and Universal should all be the same. To have a kids ticket discounted 10-15 bucks from say $300 is just redundant - if not insulting to a parent. To the have kids prices going from age 10 and under is another kick in the proverbials. Why bother? That was my point. Not that I cant afford to take my 4 kids, or enjoy my three-four week holiday in and around Florida, and all its wonderful theme parks. Therefore, I was empathising with those people with larger families who can't afford the ticket.

As well, the airline argument is true because of the way airlines currently price their tickets. You pay for use of a seat. Still, I will pay full fare for a 2 year old who could easily sit on my knee, but I am still made to pay full fare. Elsewhere, all other freight is charged by weight because it is more expensive to ship and or fly heavier things. My argument is not really that stupid. Only in the context of how airlines price the way people fly. I am sure it is cheaper to fly 200 kids than 200 NFL football players.

You also proved my point about pets. They fly cheaper than any human over 2 years old. I was rather making a social comment with that.

My kids eat like birds compared to most adults I see at Disney/Universal. So yeah, there should be kids priced menus.

Do you really want to get into an argument about kids taking up space in a line at a Disney attraction? Just because the adults paid the same amount? I really care less about marketing models and adults arguing kids should pay the same because of them. Its Disney folks, not Sandals.

The last time I was at Disney Magic Kingdom (about 5 years now) - my biggest complaint was all the adults in the park. Might have something to do with ticket prices. The real model is to keep kids (the poor ones at least) away as they just don't spend enough.

 

[Jen and Ashwin]

Woah there x 2

Prices for theme park tickets at Disney and Universal should all be the same. To have a kids ticket discounted 10-15 bucks from say $300 is just redundant - if not insulting to a parent. To the have kids prices going from age 10 and under is another kick in the proverbials. Why bother? That was my point. Not that I cant afford to take my 4 kids, or enjoy my three-four week holiday in and around Florida, and all its wonderful theme parks. Therefore, I was empathising with those people with larger families who can't afford the ticket.

As well, the airline argument is true because of the way airlines currently price their tickets. You pay for use of a seat. Still, I will pay full fare for a 2 year old who could easily sit on my knee, but I am still made to pay full fare. Elsewhere, all other freight is charged by weight because it is more expensive to ship and or fly heavier things. My argument is not really that stupid. Only in the context of how airlines price the way people fly. I am sure it is cheaper to fly 200 kids than 200 NFL football players.

You also proved my point about pets. They fly cheaper than any human over 2 years old. I was rather making a social comment with that.

My kids eat like birds compared to most adults I see at Disney/Universal. So yeah, there should be kids priced menus.

Do you really want to get into an argument about kids taking up space in a line at a Disney attraction? Just because the adults paid the same amount? I really care less about marketing models and adults arguing kids should pay the same because of them. Its Disney folks, not Sandals.

I am sure some appreciate the $10-15 less per ticket per child, even if you don't seem to think it matters. I know many people who use DVA just to get an extra $20 per $1000 spent. When you are trying to maximize a vacation, usually any little bit helps.

As for pets, it is quite possible that you will pay more for a flight for an animal than for a child, especially if you take a discount airline like Southwest. Those rates for pets were one-way, not round trip.

And my point wasn't about the space a kid takes up in line, but rather that just like an airline, that child takes up a seat on the ride. There are a limited number of seats per ride per hour, so adding more children to parks adds to wait times for rides, dining and many other things inside the park. Disney prices their tickets in a way that ensures crowd control and profits.