Maybe a Teacher or School Administrator Can Answer This:

[luvsJack]

Why do some teachers, principals, etc. seem to always believe in punishing "the masses"? This has been done all through my kids' educational years and has rarely given the desired results.

Dd is in 7th grade. She and most of her classmates had kind of gotten a bit less than enthusiastic about school up until year. This year they were given quite a few more privileges at school, which helped with the enthusiasm to a degree. For instance a bit more freedom at lunch so that they could sit where ever they wanted, even outside at picnic tables. Before school they were able to gather outside in the courtyard and socialize a bit before classes started.

At least until yesterday

Apparently someone has decided to destroy the bathrooms. The toilets in both the girl's and boy's bathrooms have been stuffed with paper towels as well as all the sinks.

The bathroom sink areas (not in the stalls) and the hallways have cameras. And now the students have to sign out of class to go to the bathroom so that they know who is going and when to try and catch the culprits.

So, until they are caught the entire jr. high has lost their morning time outside and their lunch is now a "silent lunch" for two weeks. This is, and I quote the principal (teacher quoted it, not my child) "until you all can decide to behave yourselves".

Ok, I can fully understand that 7th and 8th graders do not behave themselves all the time and I don't in any way fool myself into believing that I have an angel of my own (regardless of what her father thinks ). But they are not ALL doing this to the bathrooms and the teacher says that they pretty much know who is doing it and when--its not at lunch OR in the mornings. But, the principal is hoping that someone will come forward and say that they saw whoever it is. Dd says that is not going to happen because even if someone knew they wouldn't tell. I told her if she finds out to tell me and I will call the principal.

Then, on top of that, one of her teachers was having problems getting the class to settle down, particularly one girl. He tells the class "if C says one more word, none of you will get a break". C looks at him and says, "one more word.". The ENTIRE grade lost their afternoon break that day.

I do understand the whole idea behind giving them certain privledges and if they cannot abide by the rules taking them away. I don't have a problem with that if the class, as a whole, is not abiding by the rules. But these were things that were not going on during the times that the students were enjoying these privleges and it is not even a majority or a large group doing it. Its 2 or 3 kids out of two grades.

So, I am just wondering; Why do they continue to punish classes this way?

 

[taylor3297]

Peer pressure works wonders at that age. I taught middle school for almost 20 years and though I tried to avoid punishing the whole class due to a few, at times it was the only way. After a few times, the others would get the few on the right track or rat them out. It isn't my preferred way, and I know some people use it to the extreme.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

To frustrate kids that give a crap about school. My 8th grade dd's speech class teacher is "punishing them" by not allowing to do speeches.

Figure that one out.

And believe me the kids in the class are treating the teacher with the utmost disrespect. I am totally disgusted by what my dd tells me. To top it off this teacher has been diagnosed with cancer and is undergoing chemo treatments.

If she throws the kids out, then the kids grades suffer which is a reflection on her. In addition these kids are "protected" and would love to be thrown out since they will be with their friends.

It is stupid...

She cannot wait to get to "honors classes" in high school and be rid of the students that think school is social hour and nothing more.

 

[mamacatnv]

I agree that I think it has a lot to do with peer pressure. The ironic thing to me is given all the attention and press that bullying is getting lately, doesn't this type of punishment encourage the class taking on the trouble makers.

For the record, I personally think the whole bullying thing has gotten way overblown and we have taken conflict resolution away from the kids of today, but that is perhaps another thread.

 

[Mermaid02]

Why do some teachers, principals, etc. seem to always believe in punishing "the masses"? This has been done all through my kids' educational years and has rarely given the desired results.

Dd is in 7th grade. She and most of her classmates had kind of gotten a bit less than enthusiastic about school up until year. This year they were given quite a few more privileges at school, which helped with the enthusiasm to a degree. For instance a bit more freedom at lunch so that they could sit where ever they wanted, even outside at picnic tables. Before school they were able to gather outside in the courtyard and socialize a bit before classes started.

At least until yesterday

Apparently someone has decided to destroy the bathrooms. The toilets in both the girl's and boy's bathrooms have been stuffed with paper towels as well as all the sinks.

The bathroom sink areas (not in the stalls) and the hallways have cameras. And now the students have to sign out of class to go to the bathroom so that they know who is going and when to try and catch the culprits.

So, until they are caught the entire jr. high has lost their morning time outside and their lunch is now a "silent lunch" for two weeks. This is, and I quote the principal (teacher quoted it, not my child) "until you all can decide to behave yourselves".

Ok, I can fully understand that 7th and 8th graders do not behave themselves all the time and I don't in any way fool myself into believing that I have an angel of my own (regardless of what her father thinks ). But they are not ALL doing this to the bathrooms and the teacher says that they pretty much know who is doing it and when--its not at lunch OR in the mornings. But, the principal is hoping that someone will come forward and say that they saw whoever it is. Dd says that is not going to happen because even if someone knew they wouldn't tell. I told her if she finds out to tell me and I will call the principal.

Then, on top of that, one of her teachers was having problems getting the class to settle down, particularly one girl. He tells the class "if C says one more word, none of you will get a break". C looks at him and says, "one more word.". The ENTIRE grade lost their afternoon break that day.

I do understand the whole idea behind giving them certain privledges and if they cannot abide by the rules taking them away. I don't have a problem with that if the class, as a whole, is not abiding by the rules. But these were things that were not going on during the times that the students were enjoying these privleges and it is not even a majority or a large group doing it. Its 2 or 3 kids out of two grades.

So, I am just wondering; Why do they continue to punish classes this way?

Because it's easier than actually finding out who is causing the problem.

As far as the example you gave with "C" the teacher's response was absolutely ridiculous. She/he knew who was the problem and punished the whole class for it?

I have always told my kids the only behavior you can control is your own......

 

[Disney Ella]

Peer pressure never worked when I was in school and it doesn't seem to be working in my kids' school either. The troublemakers never cared if the rest of the class was mad at them, they still kept doing the stupid things they did. I think they actually liked it when the whole class got in trouble with them because then they had company.

I agree that it makes a lot more to sense to punish just the offender or take privileges away from the offender. Then the good kids learn that there is an advantage to being good. When everyone pays for one person's stupid action, there is no incentive for doing what you're supposed to be doing even though other people aren't.

 

[taylor3297]

Peer pressure never worked when I was in school and it doesn't seem to be working in my kids' school either. The troublemakers never cared if the rest of the class was mad at them, they still kept doing the stupid things they did. I think they actually liked it when the whole class got in trouble with them because then they had company.

I agree that it makes a lot more to sense to punish just the offender or take privileges away from the offender. Then the good kids learn that there is an advantage to being good. When everyone pays for one person's stupid action, there is no incentive for doing what you're supposed to be doing even though other people aren't.

Sometimes things occur and you don't know who the offender may be. When you then tell the whole class they will lose a privilege, then someone in most cases rats out the offender. Then the offender can be dealt with and the rest of the class can get the privilege back.

Unfortunately, in my years of teaching I have seen other teachers use the whole class punishment so much that it loses it effectiveness and the whole class becomes resentful.

 

[golfgal]

Who stuffed the toilets and sinks with paper?

 

[damo]

It is like that in everyday life as well. A few always spoil it for the rest.

 

[palavra]

In the first scenario, it has been my experience, as a teacher, that peer pressure most likely will work. Eventually, the person(s) responsible for wrecking the toilets will brag about their "work," and someone will let a teacher or administrator know. Destroying a plumbing sytem in a school is very expensive. The school cannot afford to take this issue lightly.

In the other scenario, the teacher is just plain wrong. If one student is misbehaving, then the teacher should deal with that student only.

 

[padams]

In DSs' elementary school a few years ago, the whole school was punished because the toilets were allegedly stuffed with toilet paper and had overflowed. It turned out that the sewer pipe under the road leading to the school was cracked and the sewage was backing up into the school. Did the school ever apologize to the kids for mistakenly blaming them? Of course not.

Teachers may think the group punishment is successful because the kids rat out their peers. Group punishment causes the kids and parents to resent the teachers and school. Is that resentment will worth knowing who the perpetrator is?

 

[palavra]

In DSs' elementary school a few years ago, the whole school was punished because the toilets were allegedly stuffed with toilet paper and had overflowed. It turned out that the sewer pipe under the road leading to the school was cracked and the sewage was backing up into the school. Did the school ever apologize to the kids for mistakenly blaming them? Of course not.

Teachers may think the group punishment is successful because the kids rat out their peers. Group punishment causes the kids and parents to resent the teachers and school. Is that resentment will worth knowing who the perpetrator is?

You've got to realize that the situation at your school was odd. In most cases, teachers/administrators thoroughly investigate a situation before assessing blame. Why? Because the school is likely to be sued if someone is falsely accused.

Just remeber, as Damo said, there are many instances in adult life in which people are "punished" because of the actons of others.

And, once, again, the overall tone of several posters on this thread is that the teachers/administrators are out to get you and your child. How sad that educators are seen so often as "the enemy" today.

 

[Mermaid02]

You've got to realize that the situation at your school was odd. In most cases, teachers/administrators thoroughly investigate a situation before assessing blame. Why? Because the school is likely to be sued if someone is falsely accused.

Just remeber, as Damo said, there are many instances in adult life in which people are "punished" because of the actons of others.

And, once, again, the overall tone of several posters on this thread is that the teachers/administrators are out to get you and your child. How sad that educators are seen so often as "the enemy" today.

I think it's sadder that poor teachers get tenure and can continue to do a crappy job without fear of any consequences.

 

[golfgal]

I think it's sadder that poor teachers get tenure and can continue to do a crappy job without fear of any consequences.

Just where are all these crappy schools with crappy teachers and crappy administrators??? People from all over the country post here and VERY few really think their schools or teachers are bad

How about if you go spend a couple weeks teaching and get a fresh perspective of what teachers REALLY do.

 

[castleview]

I think it's sadder that poor teachers get tenure and can continue to do a crappy job without fear of any consequences.

Here we go...

 

[Mermaid02]

Just where are all these crappy schools with crappy teachers and crappy administrators??? People from all over the country post here and VERY few really think their schools or teachers are bad

How about if you go spend a couple weeks teaching and get a fresh perspective of what teachers REALLY do.

Your kids have NEVER had a bad teacher?? Where do you live? Maybe we should ALL go live there.

My daughters 4th grade teacher was a NIGHTMARE. She frequently humiliated the kids. It was TERRIBLE.

My son has some special needs and this year we have good teachers, except for one. This teacher refuses to teach my son's class the way guidance set it up. The man has been teaching for 38 years and thinks he knows better than the school psychologist and guidance department.... it's an ongoing problem.

Teachers have a job- a job they chose- a job they were educated to do- but not one they are ALL suited for. Good teachers are worth their weight in gold and should be compensated that way, poor teachers should be let go and find a profession they are better suited for. How can anyone disagree with that???

 

[Mermaid02]

Here we go...

Good teachers are worth their weight in gold and should be compensated that way, poor teachers should be let go and find a profession they are better suited for. How can anyone disagree with that???

Do you disagree with my above statement?

 

[golfgal]

Your kids have NEVER had a bad teacher?? Where do you live? Maybe we should ALL go live there.

My daughters 4th grade teacher was a NIGHTMARE. She frequently humiliated the kids. It was TERRIBLE.

My son has some special needs and this year we have good teachers, except for one. This teacher refuses to teach my son's class the way guidance set it up. The man has been teaching for 38 years and thinks he knows better than the school psychologist and guidance department.... it's an ongoing problem.

Teachers have a job- a job they chose- a job they were educated to do- but not one they are ALL suited for. Good teachers are worth their weight in gold and should be compensated that way, poor teachers should be let go and find a profession they are better suited for. How can anyone disagree with that???

No, not like this. They have had a couple teachers that we didn't like much but they were still good teachers. I don't agree with how they all teach but that is personal preference more than anything. They have had some teachers that have been pretty disorganized, but they still learned a lot from them. I had ONE teacher growing up that was like that but she was a nun in a Catholic school and we learned a LOT from her-we just didn't like her.

 

[palavra]

Originally Posted by Mermaid02
Good teachers are worth their weight in gold and should be compensated that way, poor teachers should be let go and find a profession they are better suited for. How can anyone disagree with that???

Do you disagree with my above statement?

I absolutely agree with your statement.

In my neck of the woods, tenure doesn't exist, and poor teachers are let go. I'm sorry that it isn't that way in your school system. However, making sweeping generalizations about teachers and teaching as a whole will not fix this problem.

 

[mjkacmom]

Because it usually works. Dd12's entire grade loss recess because one boy wouldn't admit to throwing a stick at another kid. The class ratted him out, but the principal said he had to confess himself. Guess what - he did.