Marathon Weekend 2020

[DISRNR1000]

Right now I don’t have any plans for costuming. I am keeping things simple this time.

It is a lot of fun seeing other people in costumes on the course, however. I’ve seen some amazing ones! I remember the monorail that was already mentioned. I had seen one family at a 5K dress up like tiki birds from the enchanted Tiki room. Two runners went as Lumiere and Mr. Cogsworth... it was a hot day and I couldn’t believe how they could withstand the heat in their costumes! And I remember seeing two other runners that went as Peter Pan and his shadow. There are some really creative people!

 

[lahobbs4]

SAFD: I love costumes (just not for me). Anyone remember the pizza guy that wore the same thing for all four races last year? That had to be funky after that full.

 

[steph0808]

For those looking to do some sort of carb loading prior to their race, I've compiled several research articles together explaining the different methodologies and their effects on performance or glycogen supercompensation. With 11 weeks to go until race day, it's a good time to start thinking about if you're going to do something like this and possibly try executing it prior to one of your last long runs just to see how you tolerate it.

Glycogen Supercompensation (AKA Carb Loading)

Summary of the Conclusion:
If you plan to race longer than 90 min, you'll likely benefit from a carb loading strategy. If you're male, you'll need at least 7 g/kg bw to see a noticeable increase. If you're female, you'll need at least 8 g/kg bw to see a noticeable increase (although based on some of the research I'd argue that male/female are probably the same value if tested head to head for a minimal threshold). For females, this likely means a significant increase in a one time caloric intake. You'll gain some weight (as will males), but the weight gain is offset by the performance gains. The Western Australian Carb Loading Method offers an easy to follow procedure with some major benefits over other methods.

-1 day protocol
-Can occur as many as 5 days prior to event
-Consume 10 g carb/kg bw
-No glycogen depletion workout necessary
-Use Maurten Drink Mix 320 to reduce the water burden of a liquid carb sourced strategy

If anyone needs help running some math, let me know.

What about consuming 10g cab/kb of body weight the entire week leading up to a marathon? Asking for a friend who seems to be consuming a lot of Halloween candy....

 

[DerTobi75]

-Consume 10 g carb/kg bw

How to consume 1.040g of Carbs?


SAFD: For the 5K, we plan to run as a Bavarian Couple, hope we still run through Epcot
10K, HM & M are for time, so I do not think, I dress up with any fancy Costume

 

[DopeyBadger]

What about consuming 10g cab/kb of body weight the entire week leading up to a marathon? Asking for a friend who seems to be consuming a lot of Halloween candy....

While I know this was partially in jest, there was no additional benefit seen over the single day versus doing it over 3 consecutive days:

However, a follow-up research article (Bussau et al. 2002) showed that the glycogen depletion exercise was unnecessary for the glycogen supercompensation to occur. Additionally, no statistically significant increase was seen in glycogen storage when increasing the western australian protocol from 1 day to 3 days. This follow-up article cemented this protocol into a 1 day carb consumption with no need for any intense exercise proceeding the big race. In my mind, a win-win. It's important to note, the subjects of this research were all men who trained about 11 hours per week with a VO2peak of 59 (around a 1:20 half marathon or 2:47 marathon).

Bussau VA, Fairchild TJ, Rao A, Steele P, Fournier PA. Carbohydrate loading in human muscle: an improved 1 day protocol. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2002 Jul;87(3):290-5. Epub 2002 May 28. PubMed PMID: 12111292.

How to consume 1.040g of Carbs?

Well that would only be helpful if you weighed 0.1 kg!

10 grams carbs / kilogram body weight

Consume 1.040 grams Carbs.

1.040 / 0.1 = 10.4 grams carbs / kilogram body weight.

***

But if the question is, how do I consume 10.3 grams/kilogram body weight, then this is how I go about it:

170 pounds = 77kg

77kg * 10.3g carbs/kg bw = 795 grams carbs

80% in liquid form = 795 * 0.8 = 636 grams carbs

636 grams carbs / 80g Maurten 320 packet = 8 packets

Total calories to consume = 3537
Calories from Fat/Protein = 354
Fat (g) = 10
Protein (g) = 66
Carbs (g) from non-liquid source = 159

It's just a matter of finding what you tolerate best in practice. Consuming 3500 calories doesn't scare me because on some of my training days I've been consuming well over 5000 calories. But you may find that you want to reduce the liquid intake and bump up a bit from non-liquid sources. From the research, the only benefit of liquid form is avoiding gastrointestinal issues. Because eating 795 grams of spaghetti dinner is a LOT of spaghetti (43 grams of carbs per cooked cup = 18.5 cups!). So for me, I drink several Maurten's throughout the day and then eat foods like white rice, white bread, and bananas. Avoiding vegetables.

 

[jennamfeo]

Anyone remember the pizza guy that wore the same thing for all four races last year? That had to be funky after that full.

 

[SheHulk]

While I know this was partially in jest, there was no additional benefit seen over the single day versus doing it over 3 consecutive days:

However, a follow-up research article (Bussau et al. 2002) showed that the glycogen depletion exercise was unnecessary for the glycogen supercompensation to occur. Additionally, no statistically significant increase was seen in glycogen storage when increasing the western australian protocol from 1 day to 3 days. This follow-up article cemented this protocol into a 1 day carb consumption with no need for any intense exercise proceeding the big race. In my mind, a win-win. It's important to note, the subjects of this research were all men who trained about 11 hours per week with a VO2peak of 59 (around a 1:20 half marathon or 2:47 marathon).

Bussau VA, Fairchild TJ, Rao A, Steele P, Fournier PA. Carbohydrate loading in human muscle: an improved 1 day protocol. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2002 Jul;87(3):290-5. Epub 2002 May 28. PubMed PMID: 12111292.



Well that would only be helpful if you weighed 0.1 kg!

10 grams carbs / kilogram body weight

Consume 1.040 grams Carbs.

1.040 / 0.1 = 10.4 grams carbs / kilogram body weight.

***

But if the question is, how do I consume 10.3 grams/kilogram body weight, then this is how I go about it:

170 pounds = 77kg

77kg * 10.3g carbs/kg bw = 795 grams carbs

80% in liquid form = 795 * 0.8 = 636 grams carbs

636 grams carbs / 80g Maurten 320 packet = 8 packets

Total calories to consume = 3537
Calories from Fat/Protein = 354
Fat (g) = 10
Protein (g) = 66
Carbs (g) from non-liquid source = 159

It's just a matter of finding what you tolerate best in practice. Consuming 3500 calories doesn't scare me because on some of my training days I've been consuming well over 5000 calories. But you may find that you want to reduce the liquid intake and bump up a bit from non-liquid sources. From the research, the only benefit of liquid form is avoiding gastrointestinal issues. Because eating 795 grams of spaghetti dinner is a LOT of spaghetti (43 grams of carbs per cooked cup = 18.5 cups!). So for me, I drink several Maurten's throughout the day and then eat foods like white rice, white bread, and bananas. Avoiding vegetables.

I think @DerTobi75 was using the European period instead of comma as a thousands separator. So to us, it's 1,040

 

[DopeyBadger]

How to consume 1.040g of Carbs?

Sorry about the confusion over the value. Thanks to @SheHulk for point it out to me.

For 1044 grams carbs, I get the following math:

80% in liquid form = 1044 * 0.8 = 835 grams carbs

636 grams carbs / 80g Maurten 320 packet = 10.6 packets

Total calories to consume = 4640
Calories from Fat/Protein = 464
Fat (g) = 12.9
Protein (g) = 87
Carbs (g) from non-liquid source = 209

*********

If you instead aimed for closer to 8 grams/kg bw, it would be very similar to my math above:

80% in liquid form = 795 * 0.8 = 636 grams carbs

636 grams carbs / 80g Maurten 320 packet = 8 packets

Total calories to consume = 3537
Calories from Fat/Protein = 354
Fat (g) = 10
Protein (g) = 66
Carbs (g) from non-liquid source = 159

 

[DerTobi75]

Thanks @SheHulk for pointing that out. Actually I do not now, when I typed the point. Yes, I meant 1044g

@DopeyBadger Thanks for the Math. As you wrote, eating that amount of carbs is a lot of pasta! I better get used to the Maurten taste. What do you think about their Gel? I like it‘s taste much better, than their drinks.
Do you know, where I can buy Maurten in Orlando?

 

[Mumof4mice]

[/QUOTE]

What about consuming 10g cab/kb of body weight the entire week leading up to a marathon? Asking for a friend who seems to be consuming a lot of Halloween candy....

I knew I wouldn't be the only one seeing the loading regime as an exciting food challenge and opportunity!

@DopeyBadger , if I think I can eat 560g of carbs in real food without GI issues, can I do that? Or do the fat and protein in food affect the result, compared to consuming pure carbs in sports gels? Thanks!

 

[DopeyBadger]

@DopeyBadger Thanks for the Math. As you wrote, eating that amount of carbs is a lot of pasta! I better get used to the Maurten taste. What do you think about their Gel? I like it‘s taste much better, than their drinks.
Do you know, where I can buy Maurten in Orlando?

Just be glad Maurten even exists. I use to do the WA protocol with E-Fuel at 2g carb / oz water (normal dilution for a normal carb drink). It was nearly 2.5 gallons of water in a single day and I was floating. I've got my suspicion that I might have been diluting out my electrolyte balance in exchange for those carbs. Maurten is a definite win for carbs/oz water consumed. Makes the protocol significantly easier.

I've been testing out both of their gels recently (with and without caffeine). It's 25g carb per package and the size of them is close to the same as Egel (which has 37g per packet). The major advantage of the Maurten gels is their hydrogel technology and they're advertised as not needing water to be absorbed. That's a huge win when consuming water in a race can be at a premium on occasion. The drawback is a limited source of electrolytes (only sodium). So I'm not sure it's a single source. So for me, I've been doing the following:

-Maurten 320 15 min prior to starting the run (or in training I'm using SIS Beta because it's cheaper)
-Swig of concentrated Tailwind (2oz and 1 scoop) at 45 min and 1:45
-Maurten Caffeine at 60 min
-Maurten regular at 120 min
-Egel at 1:15 and 2:15.

This will give me 93g carbs/hr. In two trials thus far, I've tolerated the protocol without issue. The gels are interesting because they're like Jell-o consistency. The caffeine is a noticeable boost at 100mg. I'm thinking it's a good balance.

Can you not but Maurten in Germany, or bring it with you when you travel to Marathon Weekend? I'm not sure of locations that sell Maurten in Orlando, but maybe some local people might have a better idea.

@DopeyBadger , if I think I can eat 560g of carbs in real food without GI issues, can I do that? Or do the fat and protein in food affect the result, compared to consuming pure carbs in sports gels? Thanks!

You can do all real food. Ideally, you find real foods that are super high in fast digesting carbs and limited in fat/protein. The ratios used in the paper based on my calcs was 90% carb, 7.5% protein, and 2.5% fat (although I don't remember if it was specifically spelled out that way). Otherwise, the calorie burden may become even higher than needed if you allow the % to shift too much. But the key thing to remember is that most of the research shows that it's the grams/kg bw of carbs consumed more so than the % of carbs in your diet that matters. I highly suggest trying it out (not really any different than trying any protocol) just to make sure everything sits right the next day.

 

[camaker]

Just be glad Maurten even exists. I use to do the WA protocol with E-Fuel at 2g carb / oz water (normal dilution for a normal carb drink). It was nearly 2.5 gallons of water in a single day and I was floating. I've got my suspicion that I might have been diluting out my electrolyte balance in exchange for those carbs. Maurten is a definite win for carbs/oz water consumed. Makes the protocol significantly easier.

I've been testing out both of their gels recently (with and without caffeine). It's 25g carb per package and the size of them is close to the same as Egel (which has 37g per packet). The major advantage of the Maurten gels is their hydrogel technology and they're advertised as not needing water to be absorbed. That's a huge win when consuming water in a race can be at a premium on occasion. The drawback is a limited source of electrolytes (only sodium). So I'm not sure it's a single source. So for me, I've been doing the following:

-Maurten 320 15 min prior to starting the run (or in training I'm using SIS Beta because it's cheaper)
-Swig of concentrated Tailwind (2oz and 1 scoop) at 45 min and 1:45
-Maurten Caffeine at 60 min
-Maurten regular at 120 min
-Egel at 1:15 and 2:15.

This will give me 93g carbs/hr. In two trials thus far, I've tolerated the protocol without issue. The gels are interesting because they're like Jell-o consistency. The caffeine is a noticeable boost at 100mg. I'm thinking it's a good balance.

Can you not but Maurten in Germany, or bring it with you when you travel to Marathon Weekend? I'm not sure of locations that sell Maurten in Orlando, but maybe some local people might have a better idea.



You can do all real food. Ideally, you find real foods that are super high in fast digesting carbs and limited in fat/protein. The ratios used in the paper based on my calcs was 90% carb, 7.5% protein, and 2.5% fat (although I don't remember if it was specifically spelled out that way). Otherwise, the calorie burden may become even higher than needed if you allow the % to shift too much. But the key thing to remember is that most of the research shows that it's the grams/kg bw of carbs consumed more so than the % of carbs in your diet that matters. I highly suggest trying it out (not really any different than trying any protocol) just to make sure everything sits right the next day.

How does the Maurten with caffeine taste to you? I find the regular gels to taste like slightly sweet unflavored Jello, but the caffeinated gel I tried had a very bitter taste that was off-putting. Just wondering if you had noticed the same thing or if I might have gotten a bad gel.

On another note, Maurten advertises their lack of GI problems pretty heavily. On my last 16 miler, I took 3 gels and had my stomach get pretty upset. I’m not sure if it was the gels, the small amount of water I took (~20 oz) or something else. I’ve got one more long run to experiment with before I have to decide Maurten or Huma for race day.

 

[DopeyBadger]

How does the Maurten with caffeine taste to you? I find the regular gels to taste like slightly sweet unflavored Jello, but the caffeinated gel I tried had a very bitter taste that was off-putting. Just wondering if you had noticed the same thing or if I might have gotten a bad gel.

I really didn't notice much of a taste with either of them. Although to be fair, they weren't in my mouth for very long as I just kinda of quick-shotted them. Reminders of college days at UW. I think it might also be that the bitter (caffeine) taste was way more extreme with the RunGum, so maybe I just find these more tolerable. Conversely, E-gel really coats my tongue and the taste will last in my mouth until I am able to drink water again.

On another note, Maurten advertises their lack of GI problems pretty heavily. On my last 16 miler, I took 3 gels and had my stomach get pretty upset. I’m not sure if it was the gels, the small amount of water I took (~20 oz) or something else. I’ve got one more long run to experiment with before I have to decide Maurten or Huma for race day.

I'd say give it another shot. While they don't "need" water to be absorbed, I still think having water on board is important. For comparison, on a similar duration run (2:40 hrs and in the 30s F), I drank about 68oz of water and consumed 174 g of carbs (not all Maurten gels and not including the 80g carb Maurten + 17oz water right before starting).

 

[lhermiston]

Marathon Weekend: 10 weeks.

Good luck to everyone doing Wine & Dine this weekend.

 

[DerTobi75]

Can you not but Maurten in Germany, or bring it with you when you travel to Marathon Weekend?

I try to get informations right now, if I am allowed to bring it to the USA. I could get some problems at customs.

Maybe I order it a few days before arrival and add the hotel for shipping

 

[SarahDisney]

Do you know, where I can buy Maurten in Orlando?

Fit2Run in Disney Springs might sell it. See if you can get in touch with them and ask.

If not, you can probably get it shipped to your hotel.

 

[BigEeyore]

SAFD: I admire all of you who do costumes! Comfort is first and foremost for me - I do have some cute, theme-y running gear that I usually wear but it has to work with the temps, etc.

Training question - I just did the MCM last weekend, and I don't know how I should adjust my Goofy training to allow adequate recovery without losing too much fitness. Any advice is appreciated! Especially those of you who have done MCM or NYC and then done marathon weekend at Disney 2 months after. FWIW - Disney running is all about fun for me, but I do want to be in good enough shape to enjoy the weekend. I am a fairly experienced runner (MCM was my 7th marathon), but I have never done another one just two months later. TIA!

 

[steph0808]

SAFD: I admire all of you who do costumes! Comfort is first and foremost for me - I do have some cute, theme-y running gear that I usually wear but it has to work with the temps, etc.

Training question - I just did the MCM last weekend, and I don't know how I should adjust my Goofy training to allow adequate recovery without losing too much fitness. Any advice is appreciated! Especially those of you who have done MCM or NYC and then done marathon weekend at Disney 2 months after. FWIW - Disney running is all about fun for me, but I do want to be in good enough shape to enjoy the weekend. I am a fairly experienced runner (MCM was my 7th marathon), but I have never done another one just two months later. TIA!

I did an early November marathon and then Disney in 2017 - and I'm doing it again this year, with the first marathon being this Sunday and then Disney in January.

@DopeyBadger had me take four days off after the marathon, then start back with 3 mile runs. The next week, it varied from 3-5, the week after 4-7. Then I was pretty much back into regular training with two high weeks 3 and 4 weeks before Disney.

 

[BigEeyore]

@DopeyBadger had me take four days off after the marathon, then start back with 3 mile runs. The next week, it varied from 3-5, the week after 4-7. Then I was pretty much back into regular training with two high weeks 3 and 4 weeks before Disney.

Thanks!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Training question - I just did the MCM last weekend, and I don't know how I should adjust my Goofy training to allow adequate recovery without losing too much fitness. Any advice is appreciated! Especially those of you who have done MCM or NYC and then done marathon weekend at Disney 2 months after. FWIW - Disney running is all about fun for me, but I do want to be in good enough shape to enjoy the weekend. I am a fairly experienced runner (MCM was my 7th marathon), but I have never done another one just two months later. TIA!

I'd say something like this:

10/21 - Starting today - 30 min easy runs only (2x if 4 day a week runner and 3x if 5-6 day a week runner)
10/28 - 35% Peak from MCM (only easy)
11/4 - 40% Peak from MCM (only easy)
11/11 - 55% Peak from MCM
11/18 - 75% Peak from MCM
11/25 - 50% Peak from MCM
12/2 - 80% Peak from MCM
12/9 - 60% Peak from MCM
12/16 - 85% Peak from MCM
12/23 - Taper
12/30 - Taper
1/6 - Race Week

I don't think there's a reasonable amount of time to try and reach the same peak mileage that you were recently training for at MCM. Could you? Sure, it's certainly doable. But pressing that far does increase the injury risk quite a bit more than a slightly conservative approach.

For me, it takes about 42 days to fully recover from an "A" raced marathon. I've come to this conclusion from the relationship between my HR and pace. According to Daniels, it would take at least 6 days of complete inactivity before you would start to see VO2max decline at a rate of 0.3% per day. Equal time off is equal time return. So essentially, you will lose no fitness on the above schedule. Now whether you'll be able to "A" race Disney if you wanted to (although you don't, but someone else might read this that might be trying to) is a matter of more than just VO2max as it takes about 8-12 weeks for mitochondrial volume and density to reach a peak within a single training cycle.