Man Shot on Tube By Police

kazzie said:
earlier I suggested maybe he ran because he was an illagal immigrant or had commited a minor crime.It has just been announced his visa had expired,

The family of the dead man are saying that this is not true, and that he had only recently returned to the UK from a visit to Brazil and his visa was renewed.

Regards

Rob
 
I apolgise for my sarcasm-very inappropriate.
I apolgise to Kilted Yank for overreacting to what was a turn of phrase.

I still believe the man could have been 'secured' and there was not a need to shoot him 8 times,even with the benefit of hindsight.I can only imagine the adrenaline that the armed men have pumping and I'd be interested in any research that shows or doesn't show how this affects someones perceptions and reactions in a very stressful situation?Maybe Kilted Yank knows about this?

Just because the flats the man lived in were under surveillance-there are many,many people living in that block.I fear the man 'looked' Arabic and so was followed.But I'll wait as others have said to find out more information.
 
kazzie said:
I apolgise for my sarcasm-very inappropriate.
I apolgise to Kilted Yank for overreacting to what was a turn of phrase.

I still believe the man could have been 'secured' and there was not a need to shoot him 8 times,even with the benefit of hindsight.I can only imagine the adrenaline that the armed men have pumping and I'd be interested in any research that shows or doesn't show how this affects someones perceptions and reactions in a very stressful situation?Maybe Kilted Yank knows about this?

Just because the flats the man lived in were under surveillance-there are many,many people living in that block.I fear the man 'looked' Arabic and so was followed.But I'll wait as others have said to find out more information.
It was such a terrible event that we should all reserve judgement until as many of the facts as possible become available. There will be plenty of time to express opinions then, in what hopefully will be less stressful times.

Just out of interest kazzie, what would be your recommendation for securing a man who is wearing a primed suicide vest and is determined to kill himself and as many innocent people as possible?

Regards

Rob
 

This is exactly what the terrorists want us to do. Be angry with each other and make support for governments unstable.

We now have a situation where we are angry with our police and bickering amongst ourselves about our policies. The terrorists must be very pleased with themselves.



Susan
 
Kilted_Yank said:
Kazzie,

I wasn't attempting to sound flip or cavalier about that man's death. Perhaps my American police vernacular made it sound like I was. I meant "clean" in terms of the fact that the officers, from the information that I have, were justified in using deadly force.

I have been a police officer for quite a few years, and have spent the last (nearly) nine years as a tactical firearms instructor. I spend my time not only teaching officers and agents HOW to shoot, but WHEN to shoot.

I can only speak for our laws and our court system, of course, but in the broad world of what we call "probable cause", the officer seem to have been totally justified in firing.

That the person that was killed wasn't guilty of what the officers thought he was, unfortunately doesn't enter into it. They can only go by what they know or reasonably believe to be the case.

Any British Coppers want to join in on this?


Bill
Hubby is a British Copper (22 years service) and we agree with what you have said Bill. The Police have an incredibly difficult job to do at the best of times, let alone under situations like these. Our thoughts are with the Officer who fired the shots as he will never be the same again. He was only doing his job and like you said, the fact the man turned out not to be a bomber is irrelevant.The fact is the Police thought he was a possible bomber and took steps to avoid another massacre. They gave him every opportunity to stop.Unfortunately all we will see now in the press is Police bashing which will not help us in the fight against terrorism one bit.
 
we*luv*orlando!! said:
Hubby is a British Copper (22 years service) and we agree with what you have said Bill. The Police have an incredibly difficult job to do at the best of times, let alone under situations like these. Our thoughts are with the Officer who fired the shots as he will never be the same again. He was only doing his job and like you said, the fact the man turned out not to be a bomber is irrelevant.The fact is the Police thought he was a possible bomber and took steps to avoid another massacre. They gave him every opportunity to stop.Unfortunately all we will see now in the press is Police bashing which will not help us in the fight against terrorism one bit.
You've hit the nail on the head. I totally agree with everything you wrote.
 
Yes,

The police have been nothing but awesome over the last few weeks, i live up north and we can seem detatched from this but the dedication and application of the MET has been unrivalled- Good on you guys!
Friday 29/7/05 will be remembered for years as a triumph of investigation and the use of intelligence, also hopefully a slam in the chest of would be agitators.

With regards to this Brazilian lad, i have no feelings for him, i belive the Police acted correctly, lets face it- if he was here legally he wouldnt have had a reason to flee when confronted. He only run because he had forged his document stamps and believed his game was up. Hope they have checked his cousins documents who has been so outspoken.
 
rob@rar.org.uk said:
Unfortunately aiming to shoot somebody in the leg or the hand to disarm them is just TV fiction. There are very strict guidelines about when police can use their firearms: essentially the only time they can do so is when they believe there is an immediate threat to the lifes of themselves, police colleagues or members of the general public. If there is not this risk they are not allowed to shoot. If the risk is so severe that that the lives of innocent people are threatened the rules of engagement say that you must guarantee that the attacker is stopped. This means in most circumstances you fire at their torso or their head, which in most circumstances unfortunately means a lethal shooting. In the current circumstances the police guidelines have changed slightly to take account of the possibility that a suicide bomber will could be wearing a suicide vest packed with explosives - therefore police firearms officers have been instructed to shoot at the head if at all possible.

While the loss of an innocent life at Stockweel station is a tragedy for all concerned, I'm not sure the police could have done anything differently. There will be an independent inquiry to see what went wrong, but my guess is the police believed they were dealing with a suicide bomber who was making a desperate attempt to get onto a train to kill and maim innocent people. If I or my loved ones had been on that train I would want the police to make absolutely certain that they had stopped the attacker before he could detonate his bomb - unfortunately the only way to do this is by killing him. A shot to the legs or arms would have easily allowed a suicide bomber to press the trigger on his payload, which is a situation I'm sure we all would like to avoid if at all possible.

As Ken Livingstone said earlier today, the innocent Brazilian man who was killed at Stockwell was yet another victim of the bombers that have been tragetiing London in the last couple of weeks.

:(

Regards

Rob

Unfortunately followed the statement that "We deserved this" from KL views on our foreign policy. Glad he aint my Mayor, but then again, I wouldnt be ...what word can i put....stupid...ignorant....blinded by PR... to elect a man like that.

I need my sleep.
 
London badly needs somebody to stand against Ken Livingstone. I would prefer the monkey that Hartlepool voted in!


Susan
 
Cochise said:
Unfortunately followed the statement that "We deserved this" from KL views on our foreign policy. Glad he aint my Mayor, but then again, I wouldnt be ...what word can i put....stupid...ignorant....blinded by PR... to elect a man like that.

I need my sleep.

I didn't see that part of his statement. Typical Ken I suppose. Shame really as I thought he'd been playing a great public role with the triumph of the Olympics and then the tragedy of the bombings.

Regards

Rob
 
Unfortunately the Brazilian was here illegally and in the current climate was asking for trouble.

I believe the news the other night said that there were 275,000 illegals in this country. Were the 5 arrested yesterday illegals or brainwashed true Brits!!
 
I have every sympathy for the policeman(men) involved in this horrendous incident and of course for the family of the Brazilian, however, I don't think this should prevent lessons being learned. According to today's papers, and I know that this may be very far from gospel truth, there is doubt about some of the information that has been put out - eg, he was wearing a denim jacket not a padded coat, he used his travelcard to access the tube rather than vaulting the turnstiles. The police must have had their reasons, but I do hope that we are not being fed false information - that would be a slippery slope. My query from the start has been about the decision to follow the man, given that the police believed him to have been carrying explosives. Why would they allow him to head towards a crowded tube station rather than tackle him as he left the block of flats? Perhaps they were hoping he would lead them to further information but that seems like a risky approach given their conviction that he was a serious danger to the public. I am not doubting that the police acted in good faith and I wouldn't want to see a witchhunt, but we do have to be honest.
 














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