Lights of Winter - EPCOT archway ??

[doconeill]

ITS ALL A RUMOR thats what these boards are for !! disney needs those lights cause we all brag about them.. you hear so many rumors.. anyone who is there report to us to see if they go up !

Uh...Disney announced it on their official blog...this is NOT a rumor.

 

[New York Digger]

I stand corrected thanks for rubbing it in

 

[v_misses_epcot]

Off Topic :: I wonder if your the one who heckled me for wearing a Redsox shirt!

Ah, Don't worry, it wasn't me, I know nothing about sports, all I know is that a lot of Disney guest would wear a lot of shirts with the little cute mittens on them and that's when I figured that was what it was meant to be a Red Sox Fan.

And it could have been anyone from work lol, there were plenty of Yankee CM fans.

 

[WDSearcher]

You make a lot of good points. But bear in mind this. Many of us travel in times when Disney sells hard tickets to events such as MNSSHP or MVMCP. On those nights, Wishes isn't showing, Fantasmic may not be and that leaves Illuminations as the only game in town. Years ago when we first started going, the Halloween Party didn't seem to go as often. Last October when we went, it felt like it was going almost every night. Stuff like that gets annoying. I mean what other conclusion can one draw except to think that "hmm, this hard ticket party is very expensive and its going all the time, I feel a bit jipped". I mean that is one example of how it feels like Disney is more about taking my money than offering me something for it. And don't even get me started on how many more tickets they sell to those events than they used to. And yeah, I still go when I can and I know its a business and why shouldn't they sell more tickets, but in the end, I'm allowed to wonder about all of this. During September-December, its not as easy to feel like there's something going on every night that is part of your base ticket.

I have a sil who works for Disney. I know about cutbacks and tough decisions. I know about tough times with money, heck my dh came home last night and informed me he's taking up to a 40% pay cut.

And I love Disney and still think overall, it does an amazing job. Yet eventually, it has to be said that they are charging more, offering less and it stinks. And there is no excuse for dirty restrooms and too few staff and that goes against everything Disney parks have been about for over 50 years now.

Our trip in March for 10 nights for four people, in a moderate with airfare, QSDP and tickets is $7,000. I just downgraded to Pop, axed the QSDP, park hoppers and water park options and I am still looking at 5K before we eat a bite of food. So yeah, I don't want to see stuff cut back when my price isn't lower. Its only natural for me to feel that way.

You yourself say they should put something equitable up to replace this thing. If they don't, what say you to that?

I would say, "Bad move, Disney." But again ... if the budgets are not allocating money for something new right now, it's not like Disney can pull a fabulous holiday lighting event out of thin air. I don't expect them to immediately replace it. I'll see what happens next year. Then again ... I don't look at LOW as the crux of my holiday park experience. It was a small piece of a much larger whole.

But I'm a HUGE proponent of not giving your money to a company you feel is not giving you your money's worth. If someone is feeling "jipped", then they should stop coming to WDW. And when they do stop coming, make sure they write a letter to WDW and tell them why.

As for prices ... if no other entertainment prices (other theme parks, travel, shows, movies, etc) were going up and Disney was raising prices, I'd be out on the picket lines with you. But I think it's unrealistic and unfair to expect Disney to keep prices the same (or lower them, as some have said) when everyone else is raising them every year like always. Disney is not living in a wonderful "we always have money" bubble. They pay more for things like utilities, water, fuel, and food. That extra cost -- like everywhere else in the world -- gets passed along to the consumer.

But honestly -- if you're not getting sufficient bang for your buck, stop giving Disney your money and spend it where you ARE getting your money's worth.

 

[WDSearcher]

That's why this particular cut is getting so much resistance. Have you seen what the area looks like without the Lights?

Yes, I have. But it looks like that all year long, and I don't recall reading any posts throughout the year that say, "Gee ... that walkway between FW and WS is so barren. Disney should change it!!" I have, however, heard people complain about how crowded it gets when there are special displays there for F&W or F&G. And about what a mess it was during the tree lighting ceremony, from a crowd-control standpoint. A few years ago there was a long post from someone who literally lost their children while trying to get through the area, and she raged at Disney for not alleviating that. One person's delightful holiday tradition is always another person's bottleneck safety issue. LOW has been at WDW for 14 years. That's a HUGE run for any WDW show. And for 12 years prior to it opening, the area looked like it looks now, without the lights, and no one complained. LOW were brought in because it had played well in Paris and WDW wanted to give it a try and needed someplace to put it, not because someone said, "Gee ... that area looks bad, what can we put there."

Now in their place we get a gospel choir which performs a few shows a night. We're back to that limited experience of the tree lighting ceremony in terms of how many guests can experience it. Disney is not going to get a good bang for their buck with this swap.

I don't think Disney is considering the gospel choir as an equitable "swap" for LOW. They're simply letting people know that while LOW is, indeed, gone, there are still plenty of holiday things to do at Epcot, including a new gospel choir. I haven't seen anything from Disney that states, "We're taking out Lights of Winter and replacing it with a gospel choir." I've heard that said plenty of times on the DIS, mostly with a sarcastic tone. Disney does't HAVE to replace something immediately that it decides to retire. But most people expect that. No ... LOW wasn't replaced with anything. And as much as I think there should be something equitable put in its place, I also know that WDW is planning a Fantasyland expansion, new Star Tours, and a bunch of other stuff in the near future, so I can also presume that perhaps there's a finite number of dollars and they're all being used elsewhere. I'm sure a LOT of stuff at Universal hasn't been rehabbed or replaced because their money is tied up in Harry Potter World.

(I have seen that promenade multiple times of the year include NYE so know well what attracts crowds and what is a dud.)

Is the promenade SUPPOSED TO attract crowds? I've always seen it as a walkway between Future World and World Showcase, not as an attraction. It should be wide and unobscured and able to handle a good sized crowd and keep traffic flowing. I'm not expecting it to be a photo stop, shopping mall or entertainment desitination. It's a walkway.

While we can all sympathize with the need to balance cost vs. benefits in this economy, Disney needs to be careful they aren't cutting their noses to spite their faces. In other words, if it costs $50k to entertain 50k guests but only 10k to entertain 1k guests which is the better investment in park entertainment?

Depends on the guests. For some people, you could spend $1m to entertain them and they would complain about it, not spend any money on food or souvenirs, and kick the dog on the way out. For others, you could spend $1000 to entertain them and they'll spend a lot of money on food and souvenirs, have a great time, and go home to tell their friends about their wonderful vacation. Unfortunately, it's impossible to tell if any one group of guests is going to see what you have on stage or on the streets or in the skies as good or bad, worth it or not. Some kids need hundreds of dollars of video games to entertain them. Some kids just need the box.

 

[memphismovin]

While I have read most of this very sad thread I'm not sure if anyone else has posted this so forgive me if its a repeat. I just called Disney and complained to the CM about this situation. She agreed and said that everyone there is shocked by this chioce as well. She gave me the proper contacts for complaints and I wanted to pass them along for anyone who may not have them already.

e-mail-
wdw.guest.communications@disneyworld.com

snail mail-
Guest Correspondence
P.O. BOX 10040
Walt Disney World Resort Executive Office
Lake Buena Vista, FL 32830


This is the time to say something while its fresh in our minds. Disney HAS to know of the impact this is making on both our future plans and the disappointment of the coming season. Dis'ers get out your pens!!

 

[KellyNY]

While I have read most of this very sad thread I'm not sure if anyone else has posted this so forgive me if its a repeat. I just called Disney and complained to the CM about this situation. She agreed and said that everyone there is shocked by this chioce as well. She gave me the proper contacts for complaints and I wanted to pass them along for anyone who may not have them already.

e-mail-
wdw.guest.communications@disneyworld.com

snail mail-
Guest Correspondence
P.O. BOX 10040
Walt Disney World Resort Executive Office
Lake Buena Vista, FL 32830


This is the time to say something while its fresh in our minds. Disney HAS to know of the impact this is making on both our future plans and the disappointment of the coming season. Dis'ers get out your pens!!

Thanks for info, I placed poll to vote about LoW, feel free to vote, I will send them a copy.

 

[WDSearcher]

What would Walt do?

None of us have any idea. The real Walt never saw the Lights of Winter, and it's entirely possible that, if he had been alive, he'd have never installed them to Epcot in the first place. (Because I don't know that he would have expanded to Paris, and Disneyland Paris is where the Lights originated.)

The magical, wonderful, perfect, nostalgic Walt would have never brought in Lights of Winter in the first place, because (apparently) he would have never ever changed anything at Epcot or any of his parks, for fear of disappointing someone whose favorite ride or favorite spot on the promenade was the one he was about to change.

Seriously, though ... I think that if Walt were still alive, Epcot would be a very different place and this discussion would be moot.

 

[puntagordabob]

I think Walt would listen to his guests....and not the accountants... that pattern is IMPRINTED clearly if you read any of his biographies...

Walt always asked "what is BEST to make my park better (PLUS PLUS always PLUS everything!!!)????"

Cost effectiveness was irrelevant..... they could have painted the spires of sleeping beauty castle with gold paint, but that was GOOD ENOUGH for Walt! Walt always shot for 125% even though we know in theory 100% is the best you can get really... of course Walt GOT his 110% because Walt's vocabulary did not include IMPOSSIBLE.

the previous poster said something like if Walt was alive we wouldnt be having this conversation because LoW would have likely never existed. I AGREE 100% with you...except to state the obvious: If Walt was alive, WDW would be as INCREDIBLE today as Disneyland was when it was in its first 10 years.... I am NOT Walt, but in my humble opinion I believe in my heart that he would always be pushing the envelope.... Do you feel that WDW is doing that today? Especially when you consider the direction WDW is in versus say Disneyland or Tokyo Disney?

My point of view is simple: WDW is the biggest Disney footprint on the world...it should ALWAYS be the BEST and always the leader that the other Disney parks aspire too.

 

[memphismovin]

So I just sent out my complaint letter. Given the reason for it, I felt it would be appropriate to send it written on a Disney Christmas card. Maybe it will bring them the cheer they seem to be lacking..Just saying

 

[WDSearcher]

I think Walt would listen to his guests....and not the accountants... that pattern is IMPRINTED clearly if you read any of his biographies...

Yes ... but WHICH guests? We all assume that the feelings of the DIS are automatically the feelings of WDW guests as a whole, and that may not be true. So far, those complaining are a very very small sample. ANd I could see Walt saying, "Well ... only 1% of our returning guests have complained, so I guess we're good." Everyone always assumes that their opinion is the one Walt would have listened to.

Cost effectiveness was irrelevant..... they could have painted the spires of sleeping beauty castle with gold paint, but that was GOOD ENOUGH for Walt! Walt always shot for 125% even though we know in theory 100% is the best you can get really... of course Walt GOT his 110% because Walt's vocabulary did not include IMPOSSIBLE.

Cost effectiveness was NOT irrelevant. If it had been, Disneyland would have closed in year 2. There were plenty of things that Roy said "no" to and told Walt he could not do. And some things Walt did do against his brother's wishes (the Disneyland Circus, for example) crashed and burned. Walt and Roy were a TEAM. They kept each other in check. And Walt's vocabulary did, indeed, include the word "impossible." He said it when his animators asked for raises, which is why they went on strike. Walt was a visionary, but he wasn't perfect and he wasn't all-knowing. If cost effectiveness was irrelevant, why charge people to get in? Why try to find sponsors for things? Why scrimp on your animator salaries, since they provide the films from which the attractions at Disneyland are derived? Of course cost effectiveness mattered. Walt was a businessman.

the previous poster said something like if Walt was alive we wouldnt be having this conversation because LoW would have likely never existed. I AGREE 100% with you...except to state the obvious: If Walt was alive, WDW would be as INCREDIBLE today as Disneyland was when it was in its first 10 years.... I am NOT Walt, but in my humble opinion I believe in my heart that he would always be pushing the envelope.... Do you feel that WDW is doing that today? Especially when you consider the direction WDW is in versus say Disneyland or Tokyo Disney?

Yes, I do think WDW pushes the envelope. But I also submit that the world is very different than it was in the 1950s. In the 1950s there was no cellphone or computer technology ... people were just getting used to television ... no space travel. Look at the number of things -- technical, marvelous, amazing things -- that were invented between 1950 and 1970. The whole time frame was filled with "firsts." Walt developed something that no one had ever seen before. He had nothing to compare it to. He had no competition. WDW is constantly compared to everything else out there. It would have to be ten times the place Disneyland was to be seen as equal to how DL was viewed in the 50s. Disneyland's first ten years bear no resemblance to anything today. It was so much easier to amaze, delight and entertain people fifty years ago. There was so much that the normal person had not seen. Not the same any more. People delight in saying, "Oh ... I've seen that before" or "Is that all you got?"

I look at some of the green technology WDW is developing and I'm amazed. The processes and programs they have developed for animal care and welfare are light years ahead of almost everyone. There are innovations in fireworks, show control, lighting and audio that are setting standards in the industry. Just because they don't have a "beyond vertical" coaster or a Harry Potter pavilion doesn't mean that Disney is slacking.

 

[Rip]

None of us have any idea. The real Walt never saw the Lights of Winter, and it's entirely possible that, if he had been alive, he'd have never installed them to Epcot in the first place. (Because I don't know that he would have expanded to Paris, and Disneyland Paris is where the Lights originated.)

The magical, wonderful, perfect, nostalgic Walt would have never brought in Lights of Winter in the first place, because (apparently) he would have never ever changed anything at Epcot or any of his parks, for fear of disappointing someone whose favorite ride or favorite spot on the promenade was the one he was about to change.

Seriously, though ... I think that if Walt were still alive, Epcot would be a very different place and this discussion would be moot.

No doubt, Walt's vision wasn't a theme park at all.

BTW, I wasn't ignoring your last response. I just didn't want to make this a Universal vs. Disney thread.

 

[Rip]

I think Walt would listen to his guests....and not the accountants... that pattern is IMPRINTED clearly if you read any of his biographies...

Walt always asked "what is BEST to make my park better (PLUS PLUS always PLUS everything!!!)????"

Cost effectiveness was irrelevant..... they could have painted the spires of sleeping beauty castle with gold paint, but that was GOOD ENOUGH for Walt! Walt always shot for 125% even though we know in theory 100% is the best you can get really... of course Walt GOT his 110% because Walt's vocabulary did not include IMPOSSIBLE.

the previous poster said something like if Walt was alive we wouldnt be having this conversation because LoW would have likely never existed. I AGREE 100% with you...except to state the obvious: If Walt was alive, WDW would be as INCREDIBLE today as Disneyland was when it was in its first 10 years.... I am NOT Walt, but in my humble opinion I believe in my heart that he would always be pushing the envelope.... Do you feel that WDW is doing that today? Especially when you consider the direction WDW is in versus say Disneyland or Tokyo Disney?

My point of view is simple: WDW is the biggest Disney footprint on the world...it should ALWAYS be the BEST and always the leader that the other Disney parks aspire too.

While I understand your enthusiasm, Walt was a very astute businessman (which is why WDW exists today - he learned from his mistakes). Cost effectiveness would most certainly have aided in his decisions. That is not to say that his primary line of thought would have been guided by the "bottom line", and it's rather hard to believe he would have made an analagous decision given the relative return on investment, but don't make the mistake of thinking money is no object at all.

Were that the case, none of it would exist at all.

 

[TDC Nala]

Around two years ago, a very popular personality was unjustly fired at the Polynesian Resort. Once Polynesian fans from the DIS and other forums found out about this, things got ugly! Feelings were hurt and blood was spilled. Disney must have gotten swamped with e-mails, snail mails, nasty-grams, and a lot of complaining at the Polynesian front desk. I fired off a very frosty, to the point e-mail myself. There were those who stated that it would be a waste of time – "Disney does as Disney does" and you are not going to change their mind. Well, a week or so later as I was getting home from work, the phone was ringing. A very nice lady from the front office at DISNEY was calling ME! She told me how much flack Disney got for the firing, she explained that this person was hired again with compensation, and that everything was warm and fuzzy again at the Polynesian.
Bottom line – if enough people are upset about an event (or non-event), call, write, send up smoke signals. Contrary to what some people will lead you to believe, Disney does pay attention.

This isn't that analagous - if I remember correctly the person in question was let go as a result of a guest complaint that turned out to be unfounded. She wasn't laid off because they didn't want to pay her, or because they thought it was obsolete to have entertainment at the Polynesian. That is a different situation from Disney wants to save money, so they're cutting stuff. Or Disney just wants to do something different, like a gospel choir.

A better analogy would be when they eliminated the Extra Magic hours for awhile after 9/11 when attendance dipped, and said instead they would bring characters to the resort for greetings. Obviously Disney thought it would cost them less in operating revenue to do it that way. It didn't last long though. Somehow I don't think the Lights of Winter is going to generate the volume of complaints that the Character Cavalcade or whatever they called it did.

 

[lpizzuro123]

If they were thinking straight they could have had one last big hoorah before retiring it. They could have advertised for everyone to come see them one last time and made a big deal of it.

We are not going down to Disney this year for Christmas but if I heard it was the last year for the Lights of Winter I would definately had tried to work something out to get down there.

Linda

 

[WDSearcher]

BTW, I wasn't ignoring your last response. I just didn't want to make this a Universal vs. Disney thread.

I figured.

 

[agnes!]

We are not going down to Disney this year for Christmas but if I heard it was the last year for the Lights of Winter I would definately had tried to work something out to get down there.

Linda

Yeah, me too...if I had KNOWN that the Lights of Winter were going to be retired after last year, I think I would have made a serious effort to get down there for their last showing.

And I'm sure something along these lines has been said upthread but I think it's hysterical the way Corporate spins the decision. Gee, Disney, can't handle updating some supposedly outdated lights? Gee, why don't we just get rid of all the other obsolete technology around the parks...like, oh, I don't know...the steam trains, Haunted Mansion, older Audio Animatronics, Carousel of Progress, monorail, Energy Adventure and so on and so on. Get rid of them all.

Been a long day around my neck of the woods, and I'm grumpy.
agnes!

 

[KellyNY]

We are not going down to Disney this year for Christmas but if I heard it was the last year for the Lights of Winter I would definately had tried to work something out to get down there.

Linda

Yea, but they decided last minute, out of blue. They should double check their orders, maybe it is just a typo, since it makes no sence.

 

[C.Ann]

Yes - and from what I understand, it's true..

I'm very disappointed.. I thought it was beautiful!!

 

[DisneyNDecember]

Here is the email I received from Disney directly--

Dear Lisa,

Thank you for contacting the Walt Disney World Resort.

There are no plans for Lights of Winter to return at this time. We
update our holiday events and décor annually to offer new experience to
our Guests.

We regularly evaluate all aspects of our business and make adjustments
as needed. ?D?Vine Voices,? an exciting and lively gospel choir, will
perform for the first time this year during Holidays The World on the
Fountain Stage in Future World. They will perform daily Nov. 27 through
Dec. 26.

Lisa, we hope that you will continue to come and see the latest editions
to the Holiday decorations and events that we have planned for 2009.


If you have questions or need further assistance, feel free to contact
us.