Latest SwiftBoats Vets commercial...

[ckr]

"Not if they earned them they wouldn't...but nice try "

Who says she didn't earn her Purple Heart Band-aid? Maybe she got a paper cut while stuffing envelopes. Self-inflicted, sure, but worthy of a band-aid, right? (Insert Sarcasm Smilie here!)

"But hey...At least Bush still has his medals from his valorous service, right ? "

And the still powerful Bill Clinton has his cigars! And the up and coming Hillary has her womanizing husband! Puh-leez!!

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by ckr
Who says she didn't earn her Purple Heart Band-aid? Maybe she got a paper cut while stuffing envelopes. Self-inflicted, sure, but worthy of a band-aid, right? (Insert Sarcasm Smilie here!)

Nice. Thanks for proving my point about the people wearing those things.

Originally posted by ckr
And the still powerful Bill Clinton has his cigars! And the up and coming Hillary has her womanizing husband! Puh-leez!!

Wow...What is it with you guys on here today ? Last time I checked, Clinton had been out of office for four years, and...wait, let me check....nope, Hillary's not on the ticket this year either

Same ol' tactics....When you can't defend your side, attack the other.

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Yeah...Isn't it just simply amazing that it's NEVER the Republicans or Bush that are behind these kinds of nauseating tactics ? It's always just some "independant" operator.

How many times are people going to let them get away with this ?

Hey, these purple hearts being given out reminds me of when the story came out several months ago that Teresa Kerry was passing out "A**s of Evil" pins with Bush and Cheney on them....that WAS a Kerry behind that particular nauseating tactic!

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by beattyfamily
Hey, these purple hearts being given out reminds me of when the story came out several months ago that Teresa Kerry was passing out "A**s of Evil" pins with Bush and Cheney on them....that WAS a Kerry behind that particular nauseating tactic!

I hadn't heard that....Got a link somewhere ?

 

[Abracadabra]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Obviously, quite a few people are, including several on these very boards.

When the level of debate has sunk so far that people like the woman pictured above have no problem wearing fake purple hearts in an effort to mock one candidate -- completely ignoring the fact that they are also insulting the thousands of GI's out there that also have those medals -- how can anyone fight against that ? I GUARANTEE you that there will be people defending this...um..."person"...In this thread. GUARANTEE it.

ITA! At first, I couldn't believe someone was distributing these on the convention floor, then I saw the picture of the woman wearing one on her chin!

What continues to amaze me (and I suppose it probably shouldn't) is the complete disregard that some have for the honor and dignity of the medal itself. Being awarded a Purple Heart is no small thing... it means the individual was wounded during combat, often seriously.

This little antic is nothing more than someone continuing to spit on those who served and the many who died in Vietnam. This antic is offensive on so many levels; it's just unbelievable that the RNC would tolerate it for even 1 second.

 

[Paradise]

wvrevy:

Do Republicans think people are stupid ?

The answer is YES!

Every gimmick the neo-cons and religious right come up with is deem gospel by the 44% of the faithful.

**************************





bush: Criminal de Guerre

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by wvrevy

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by beattyfamily
Hey, these purple hearts being given out reminds me of when the story came out several months ago that Teresa Kerry was passing out "A**s of Evil" pins with Bush and Cheney on them....that WAS a Kerry behind that particular nauseating tactic!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hadn't heard that....Got a link somewhere ?

Well, it was about 8 months ago and I remember it well but didn't have a link...so I did a quick search for you.

Heinz pin story

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by beattyfamily
Well, it was about 8 months ago and I remember it well but didn't have a link...so I did a quick search for you.

Heinz pin story

Lol...Thanks. No, that's not exactly what I'd call "raising the level of debate" either, but at least it isn't insulting to thousands of veterans that were injured in service to their country. The people wearing and making those band-aids strike me as the Anne Coulter type...the type that would say Max Cleeland is nothing special, just because of what he gave up in service to his country. Earned, in their little minds, or not, John Kerry IS a three time purple heart winner, and he didn't win those awards while campaigning in Birmingham. He WAS on the front lines, and he DID fight to do what he thought was right, both during AND after the war.

Now....Wonder where I can get one of those pins ?

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Lol...Thanks. No, that's not exactly what I'd call "raising the level of debate" either, but at least it isn't insulting to thousands of veterans that were injured in service to their country. The people wearing and making those band-aids strike me as the Anne Coulter type...the type that would say Max Cleeland is nothing special, just because of what he gave up in service to his country. Earned, in their little minds, or not, John Kerry IS a three time purple heart winner, and he didn't win those awards while campaigning in Birmingham. He WAS on the front lines, and he DID fight to do what he thought was right, both during AND after the war.

Now....Wonder where I can get one of those pins ?

I agree it's not the same. It just reminded me of that story.

I do think these stickers, or whatever they are, are in poor taste and glad the GOP has condemned them. I also think, though, that Kerry throwing 'medals' when he got home was also very insulting to many many vets. just as these stickers might be insulting to some vets, IMHO.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by beattyfamily
I agree it's not the same. It just reminded me of that story.

I do think these stickers, or whatever they are, are in poor taste and glad the GOP has condemned them. I also think, though, that Kerry throwing 'medals' when he got home was also very insulting to many many vets. just as these stickers might be insulting to some vets, IMHO.

Oh, I don't deny that for a second. I'm sure some, if not most, did find it offensive. But again, Kerry earned the right to those medals through his service, and it was his right to toss them away, as well. He CERTAINLY wasn't doing it to insult his fellow vets, but as a statement of protest against the government that was sending kids to die for a "miscalculation".

Kerry's protest, in my opinion, was one of caring for the welfare of the guys in that war. These people doing what they are doing shows a distinct lack of caring for the thousands that have millions that have died or been wounded defending their right to act like...well, the word filter won't allow me to say what I think of them

 

[Disney Doll]

wvrevy...inaminute and mickey88 gave very logical, intellectual explanations of why what you say, and you may have some good points, is not heard because of how you say things. And yet you seem not to have "heard" them.

If you ever intend to change someone's mind, or bring another point of view into a discussion, you have to stop all the vitriolic name-calling. It serves no purpose, and makes people discount whatever opinions or good information you may have to offer. It is not just this post, but many posts. Your argument that "the other side does it" is weak. If you believe that your opinions are correct, you shouldn't have to sink to the level of those you claim to despise, nor should you want to. I don't care what Hannity & Coombs or Rush Limbaugh or anyone else says, or, for that matter, how they behave. My opinion of them, if they behave badly or attempt to make a point through the use of hate-filled vitriol, and name-calling, is the same. It is unnecessary, and dilutes the message.

As far as the Swift boat veterans...were these ads paid for by President Bush or the Republican party? I'd like a link, based on fact, showing me that. If so, then they are repugnant. However, if these men paid for these ads themselves, in an effort to bring to the forefront something they think needs to be heard, then I am not sure how they can be faulted. Everything is not a great right-wing conspiracy, and before anyone tries to imply that it is, again, I'd like to see documented fact, not opinion, not surmisings, not "feelings", but fact, that the Republican party or President Bush is behind this.

This has been one of the worst elections in my memeory. I am really beginning to think that we on the DIS cannot have an intelligent debate about issues. Too much other garbage gets in the way, and that's sad.

 

[ThAnswr]

Originally posted by inaminute
OH NO! The world must be coming to an end--I actually agree with you!!! Except for two points.

The first is that--at least in the case of the OP--I believe they were simply misinformed about what Kerry actually said. I can't blame them, there has been a lot of talk about it and it all gets confusing. Until you actually hear what Kerry said. They may not have heard it. So, they weren't actually lying.

Simply misinformed...........baloney! This has been a calculated campaign to put words into John Kerry's mouth and and equally calculated campaign to pretend that atrocities didn't occur in Viet Nam. Atrocities occur in every war. If there were no war crimes committed in Viet Nam, why Lieutenant William Calley spend several years in prison?

As far as Kerry blaming his fellow veterans, who he actually blamed was a government who put young Americans into situations where they could not tell friend from foe and in a war they knew could not be won. McNamara himself admitted they knew the war was a lost cause in the middle sixties.

The real patriots in this country were the John Kerry's who protested the war and not the John O'Neill's who lied then and are lying now.

Fifty-two thousand Americans died in the war. 10,000 of those died because Richard Nixon didn't want to be the only President to lose a war and he wanted to save face.

Viet Nam was a lousy, stinking war started by a group of men who had no problem lying to gain American support for war because the ends justified the means.

Well, whattayanno, deja vu all over again.

Originally posted by inaminute
The other point is the use of your word "Repugnican." You have a lot of good things to say and some valid points to make. I don't always agree, but I respect your right to expess your views.

Except for the name calling. That's beneath you. Personally, I'd take your posts much more seriously without it. Name calling does nothing for your credibility. Your opinions deserve better than that.

The ones who continually misquote, or lie about John Kerry, especially about Viet Nam, are repugnant.

 

[jjskribs]

Back to those disgusting purple bandaids........... they were passed out by a personal friend of Carl Rove...... surprise ..surprise

 

[JimB.]

Viet Nam was a lousy, stinking war started by a group of men who had no problem lying to gain American support for war because the ends justified the means.

Just a tangent, but you're talking about Lyndon Johnson, correct?

McNamara himself admitted they knew the war was a lost cause in the middle sixties.

But it was also McNamara himself, who was driven by numbers & statistics who gretaly contributed to that. Mission statistics, body counts, ordnance delivered. But not a whit about true strategic military strategy or goals.

Believe it or not, I agree 100% with you about the Vietnem War. It was lost in the halls of Washington. Not the battlefields of Vietnam. We actually won on the battlefield. Every major engagement that the US Military was involved in was a military victory for the US, but the military was not allowed to conduct a campaign that would ultimately lead to a final victory.

The ROE's stunk, and greatly contributed to manymanymany American deaths,

 

[bsnyder]

It was also lost because of things like this:

 

[LisaSt]

Not worth seeing. political ads hold little value to me and just make me laugh at the waste of time and money they spend on them. The vietnam war was also another war that should have never been faught and the US lost this one because they were out faught in a strange place even with suerior forces and firepower. It was a war to many young men died in and was a discrace to a nation.

 

[WillyJ]

We lost Vietnam because there was nothing to win.


The politicians sent our young men into a country that had been decimated by the results of a previous war to fight half of the citizens in the country on behalf of the rest of the citizens in the country who they claimed thirsted for democracy and wanted us there desperately . . . and we were only going to stabalize the region and train the South Vietnamese army who would then help the popular and legitimate leader handle it themselves and we would go home.

They also said if we didn't stop the Vietcong there, we'd be fighing them in the streets of America. We would win the hearts and the minds of the people and stop communism in it's tracks because we had to or the US would be communist next. . .


Of course the reality was the people of Vietnam were for the most part simple farmers who didn't have any concept of what demeocracy was and who didn't really care who ran the country as long as the fighting, killing, burning, and destruction stopped; and to them being ruled by their own was preferable to being ruled by an occupying, foreign force. .. . . and the south Vietnamese leaders had no credibility and were as corrupt and vicious as any in the North.

Here is part of a speech Lyndon Johnson gave on April 7, 1965 right before he escalated ground troops in Vietnam:


We fight because we must fight if we are to live in a world where every country can shape its own destiny. And only in such a world will our own freedom be finally secure.

This kind of a world will never be built by bombs or bullets. Yet the infirmities of man are such that force must precede reason, and the waste of war. The works of peace.

We wish this were not so. But we must deal with the world as it is, if it is ever to be as we wish. . .

There are those who wonder why we have a responsibility there. We have it for the same reason we have a responsibility for the defense of freedom in Europe. World War Two was fought in both Europe and Asia, and when it ended we found ourselves with continued responsibility for the defense of freedom.

Our objective is the independence of South Vietnam, and its freedom from attack. We want nothing for ourselves, only that the people of South Vietnam be allowed to guide their own country in their own way.

We will do everything necessary to reach that objective. And we will do only what is absolutely necessary. . .

I would hope that the Secretary-General of the United Nations could use the prestige of his great office, and his deep knowledge of Asia, to initiate, as soon as possible, with the countries of the area, a plan for cooperation in increased development.

For our part I will ask the Congress to join in a billion dollar American investment in this effort as soon as it is underway. . .



Any of this sound familiar?


See I don't believe we "lost" Vietnam; we just finally admitted there was nothing there to win. . and the most obvious proof of that is when we did leave what happened? Nothing. No dominos fell; no fighting Vietcong in the streets; communism was collapsed 20 years later in most of the world and Vietnam is not seen as a threat to anyone.

And Bet, with all due respect. . . I have a dozen US history books and a couple on Vietnam and a couple on the 60's. . and only one of them even makes so much as a brief mention of the V.V.A.W. and none of Kerry. .

I hadn't heard of or heard Kerry's testimony before it was brought up in this campaign. . how many of the rest of you had?


Kent State; The Pentagon Papers; Walter Cronkite saying us being in Vietnam was wrong; the staggering number of kids coming home in boxes; the billions of doallars spent. . those were the seminal events that turned public opinon against the war. . but again, nothing caused us to lose it because there was nothing there to win.



As far as the commercial. . it's purposefully misleading and if those men had a legitimate case they wouldn't have to be dishonest.


Here's a link to the entire text of Kerry's testimony. . I think anyone who reads what he said with any objectivity will see he was defending his fellow soldiers, not accusing them. . Kerry's 1971 Testimony

 

[Mermaid02]

I am the OP- Thank you Willy for the link.
I read Kerry's testimony.... so now I do understand that he spoke for "others" who said they committed the atrocities.... and now the commercial makes just as much sense as it did yesterday. The Vets in the commercials talked about being tortured by the Vietnamese because they wanted them to sign confessions that they did these things and they refused.... they said (paraphrasing here) "John Kerry gave them willingly what they tortured me for and I refused to give them..."

If you agree with the commercial or not- I stand by my statement that it is very powerful.

 

[aprilgail2]

The more negative ads one side runs only makes me want to vote more the other side.....I normally just switch the channels now when political crap comes on!

 

[inaminute]

My FIL earned three Purple Hearts in WWII. He received compensation until he died for the wounds he received--something like $68 a month. He had a steel plate in his head, lost hearing in one ear, and other injuries. He was a POW in Germany where he suffered greatly. He never talked about it. He only showed me the medals once. The only person he ever discussed any of this with in any detail was my oldest son after he joined the Army. He had very little when he passed away. He still had his medals, though. Tucked safely away in their original box.

The purple heart bandaids being passed out at the convention are disgraceful. Those medals meant something to my FIL and to us. They are a reminder of the sacrifice he made for his country.

It is extremely insulting to the men who fought, and to their families. The people who created them should be ashamed. The delegates wearing them should be ashamed. I know I'm ashamed OF them.