Latest Resale Restriction Buzz?

[GCorbett]

There is reciprocity though. Direct buyers, and those grandfathered, may stay at Riviera just like direct buyers of Riviera can trade into other resorts. Newer resale buyer can't trade into Riviera however resale buyers at Riviera also can not trade out to other resorts. There are limitations going both ways.

That isn't reciprocity because it doesn't prevent the resale home resort owner's interest being used by another member whose interest the home resort owner doesn't have the right to use.

It's a difficult concept to get one's mind around, but as a starting point, the way a point based timeshare works is that each person has a real property interest in their home resort. They can choose to, instead of staying at their home resort, put their points in the network's bucket and use someone else's points. (I realize this sounds like the RCI exchange but really the DVC network is a simplified version of that.)

Disney's new resale restrictions allow a direct Riviera owner to use a resale owner's points and bar that resale owner from using the RIviera owner's points.

So, your likely next argument would be, but there are other points in the bucket!. To which I would say, how is that guaranteed? As the future resorts come online and the 2042 resorts go offline (to most likely become future resorts), the availability of points to resale owners will become more limited, but those resale owner's points can still be used by these future owners. In other to ensure the integrity of the system, DIsney would have to earmark member's points based on their resale/direct status, preventing future resort owners from using resale owners points. While this may be theoretically possible, the complexity would make the system impossible to maintain.

 

[zavandor]

That isn't reciprocity because it doesn't prevent the resale home resort owner's interest being used by another member whose interest the home resort owner doesn't have the right to use.

It's a difficult concept to get one's mind around, but as a starting point, the way a point based timeshare works is that each person has a real property interest in their home resort. They can choose to, instead of staying at their home resort, put their points in the network's bucket and use someone else's points. (I realize this sounds like the RCI exchange but really the DVC network is a simplified version of that.)

Disney's new resale restrictions allow a direct Riviera owner to use a resale owner's points and bar that resale owner from using the RIviera owner's points.

So, your likely next argument would be, but there are other points in the bucket!. To which I would say, how is that guaranteed? As the future resorts come online and the 2042 resorts go offline (to most likely become future resorts), the availability of points to resale owners will become more limited, but those resale owner's points can still be used by these future owners. In other to ensure the integrity of the system, DIsney would have to earmark member's points based on their resale/direct status, preventing future resort owners from using resale owners points. While this may be theoretically possible, the complexity would make the system impossible to maintain.

A thread last year discussed the legality of the new restrictions:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...t-to-revert-dvcs-resale-restrictions.3747861/
The conclusion was that the new resale restrictions are probably illegal (for the reasons you've written and because of how the POS are written) but since existing owners are not impacted because they've been grandfathered, there would be very few people interested in joining a lawsuit.
Maybe in a few year when the pool of new resale owners increase, something might be done.

 

[AKNOTTS66]

That isn't reciprocity because it doesn't prevent the resale home resort owner's interest being used by another member whose interest the home resort owner doesn't have the right to use.

It's a difficult concept to get one's mind around, but as a starting point, the way a point based timeshare works is that each person has a real property interest in their home resort. They can choose to, instead of staying at their home resort, put their points in the network's bucket and use someone else's points. (I realize this sounds like the RCI exchange but really the DVC network is a simplified version of that.)

Disney's new resale restrictions allow a direct Riviera owner to use a resale owner's points and bar that resale owner from using the RIviera owner's points.

So, your likely next argument would be, but there are other points in the bucket!. To which I would say, how is that guaranteed? As the future resorts come online and the 2042 resorts go offline (to most likely become future resorts), the availability of points to resale owners will become more limited, but those resale owner's points can still be used by these future owners. In other to ensure the integrity of the system, DIsney would have to earmark member's points based on their resale/direct status, preventing future resort owners from using resale owners points. While this may be theoretically possible, the complexity would make the system impossible to maintain.

I'm really wondering what changed in their heads to put these restrictions in motion from the Time Copper Creek Opened to Riviera. They immediately put a negative bullseye on Riviera from the start by doing this. It seems okay now but with more and more Riviera points being bought direct and resold that makes a larger pool of owners that have 1 place to stay, this could cause massive booking problems in say 10 years because now you have Direct buyers able to stay at Riviera and now only Resale buyers 1 place to stay. I guess this only has a hamper if you don't book at 11 months but now you have every owner of Riviera looking to book at 11 months or looking at the possibility of not being able to get a room at all in your home resort. It seems like this is going to make Resale buyers being very unhappy if they can't get their travel dates at 11 months.

 

[TexasChick123]

I'm really wondering what changed in their heads to put these restrictions in motion from the Time Copper Creek Opened to Riviera. They immediately put a negative bullseye on Riviera from the start by doing this. It seems okay now but with more and more Riviera points being bought direct and resold that makes a larger pool of owners that have 1 place to stay, this could cause massive booking problems in say 10 years because now you have Direct buyers able to stay at Riviera and now only Resale buyers 1 place to stay. I guess this only has a hamper if you don't book at 11 months but now you have every owner of Riviera looking to book at 11 months or looking at the possibility of not being able to get a room at all in your home resort. It seems like this is going to make Resale buyers being very unhappy if they can't get their travel dates at 11 months.

DVD doesn't care if resale members are happy. Their sales goals are only for direct. I don't like it either nor do I think it is right, but they do not care. The only way I can see these restrictions being rolled back, and I do mean ONLY, is if the direct sales take a dip because it is too hard to book at your home resort. That will take time to play out. As long as direct sales remain strong without complaints from members about booking, the resale restrictions are here to stay whether we like them or not. I, for one, hate them! However, I didn't hate them enough that I didn't add on at direct RIV points which is kind of the problem for any of us who buy.

Even if you are buying resale since the restrictions were announced, you are not actively protesting the restrictions because you are now restricted from RIV and any other property going forward, and saying that is something that you're willing to accept. It doesn't mean you like the restrictions or are cheering for them, but they are not a big enough deterrent for you to forego buying into DVC. A lot of people say, "Well, I have a lot of unrestricted points, so it doesn't matter to me." I get that, I do, but you are still willing to buy points that are more restricted than prior points regardless of your reasoning.

 

[Sandisw]

That isn't reciprocity because it doesn't prevent the resale home resort owner's interest being used by another member whose interest the home resort owner doesn't have the right to use.

It's a difficult concept to get one's mind around, but as a starting point, the way a point based timeshare works is that each person has a real property interest in their home resort. They can choose to, instead of staying at their home resort, put their points in the network's bucket and use someone else's points. (I realize this sounds like the RCI exchange but really the DVC network is a simplified version of that.)

Disney's new resale restrictions allow a direct Riviera owner to use a resale owner's points and bar that resale owner from using the RIviera owner's points.

So, your likely next argument would be, but there are other points in the bucket!. To which I would say, how is that guaranteed? As the future resorts come online and the 2042 resorts go offline (to most likely become future resorts), the availability of points to resale owners will become more limited, but those resale owner's points can still be used by these future owners. In other to ensure the integrity of the system, DIsney would have to earmark member's points based on their resale/direct status, preventing future resort owners from using resale owners points. While this may be theoretically possible, the complexity would make the system impossible to maintain.

The only thing I will add is that the POS documents, if I am reading them correctly have always stated that using at future resorts was not guaranteed.

So, in this case, they have made the adjustments going forward. Yes, there are some who think they stretched the wording of the agreement with BVTC that says similar rules vs, same rules and that maybe they weren’t allowed to do it.

IMO, I think they must have had enough legal standing to do it, especially given that it didn’t take a lot to get them to reverse those initial 2020 charts with the lock off premium. They got the push back from such great members, and this stuff with RIV changes happened after that.

 

[GCorbett]

The only thing I will add is that the POS documents, if I am reading them correctly have always stated that using at future resorts was not guaranteed.

So, in this case, they have made the adjustments going forward. Yes, there are some who think they stretched the wording of the agreement with BVTC that says similar rules vs, same rules and that maybe they weren’t allowed to do it.

IMO, I think they must have had enough legal standing to do it, especially given that it didn’t take a lot to get them to reverse those initial 2020 charts with the lock off premium. They got the push back from such great members, and this stuff with RIV changes happened after that.

You are correct that Disney retains the power to not allow DVC member to book at new resorts. Where they run into trouble is in allowing Riviera/Future Resort owners to book at existing resorts where there are resale buyers. Someone on the legal team seems to be aware of this problem. I say this because there is one "perk" that Disney has not withdrawn from resale members and that is the ability to exchange for RCI points. Essentially, Disney is setting up a DVC Part 2, which is fine, but they can't allow DVC Part 2 to use DVC Part 1's points.

 

[Sandisw]

You are correct that Disney retains the power to not allow DVC member to book at new resorts. Where they run into trouble is in allowing Riviera/Future Resort owners to book at existing resorts where there are resale buyers. Someone on the legal team seems to be aware of this problem. I say this because there is one "perk" that Disney has not withdrawn from resale members and that is the ability to exchange for RCI points. Essentially, Disney is setting up a DVC Part 2, which is fine, but they can't allow DVC Part 2 to use DVC Part 1's points.

But sounds like they were able to enter with those rules into BVTC. The fact that they grandfathered people in I think also plays a role.

So, those owning direct RIV are allowed to trade into both new and old. I get that you feel that as long as new resale owners can’t trade in violates, but as mentioned, resale RIV are restricted.

Remember, direct L14 buyers get all trades too, so it’s not just RIV.

So, I would say those buying since Jan 2019 on resale are part of DVC 2, and not DVC 1, and thus enter in under the new rules.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

The only thing I will add is that the POS documents, if I am reading them correctly have always stated that using at future resorts was not guaranteed.

So, in this case, they have made the adjustments going forward. Yes, there are some who think they stretched the wording of the agreement with BVTC that says similar rules vs, same rules and that maybe they weren’t allowed to do it.

IMO, I think they must have had enough legal standing to do it, especially given that it didn’t take a lot to get them to reverse those initial 2020 charts with the lock off premium. They got the push back from such great members, and this stuff with RIV changes happened after that.

But what that meant was that there was no guarantee that any announced resorts would necessarily come to fruition or be a part of DVC. Calling it a stretch is not correct IMO - it was blatantly ignoring the POS that also (to paraphrase without looking up the exact wording) states that that all resorts in the system need to be under the same terms.

Riviera should have been the start of DVC II but of course management saw that as a detriment so decided to ignore that part of the requirement.

 

[Sandisw]

But what that meant was that there was no guarantee that any announced resorts would necessarily come to fruition or be a part of DVC. Calling it a stretch is not correct IMO - it was blatantly ignoring the POS that also (to paraphrase without looking up the exact wording) states that that all resorts in the system need to be under the same terms.

Riviera should have been the start of DVC II but of course management saw that as a detriment so decided to ignore that part of the requirement.

I thought I read similar....which can be defined differently than same...but, as I said, I may have read it wrong.

 

[GCorbett]

But sounds like they were able to enter with those rules into BVTC. The fact that they grandfathered people in I think also plays a role.

So, those owning direct RIV are allowed to trade into both new and old. I get that you feel that as long as new resale owners can’t trade in violates, but as mentioned, resale RIV are restricted.

Remember, direct L14 buyers get all trades too, so it’s not just RIV.

So, I would say those buying since Jan 2019 on resale are part of DVC 2, and not DVC 1, and thus enter in under the new rules.

I think you mistake my interest in the legal argument for bad feelings. At this point, I don't particularly care about the restrictions from a resale owner standpoint. I'm simply saying that the law isn't on their side from what I can determine. If they were to somehow section off resale owners' interests and prohibit future resort owners from using it, that would be in accordance with basic property law. Doing so would be next to impossible from a practical standpoint however.

 

[Sandisw]

I think you mistake my interest in the legal argument for bad feelings. At this point, I don't particularly care about the restrictions from a resale owner standpoint. I'm simply saying that the law isn't on their side from what I can determine. If they were to somehow section off resale owners' interests and prohibit future resort owners from using it, that would be in accordance with basic property law. Doing so would be next to impossible from a practical standpoint however.

Didn't get that feeling at all. Just don’t believe the violated things with the new language and how they did it to the extent that it was illegal.

 

[karen4546]

i am a relatively new DVC member. We bought AKV direct in May of 2019 and then added another 25 (direct again) in October.
My question (forgive my naivity) is even if someone buys resale, they pay the same maintenance fees as the person who buys direct. So, why the restrictions at all? I know it is an incentive to buy direct to be able to stay wherever. But, if they allow properties to be resold then why restrict resale owners when they pay for the upkeep on their "restricted" purchase just like those who bought direct.

We bought direct because we felt that the discount on the annual passes was enough of a "discount" to justify our measly buy in . Now, if we were buying over 250 then the savings would not be there. When we add on it will be resale.

I will add that we toured the Riviera rooms and they were lovely, but we really like AKV and the points per night would not allow us to buy in at just 100 points.

 

[Sandisw]

i am a relatively new DVC member. We bought AKV direct in May of 2019 and then added another 25 (direct again) in October.
My question (forgive my naivity) is even if someone buys resale, they pay the same maintenance fees as the person who buys direct. So, why the restrictions at all? I know it is an incentive to buy direct to be able to stay wherever. But, if they allow properties to be resold then why restrict resale owners when they pay for the upkeep on their "restricted" purchase just like those who bought direct.

We bought direct because we felt that the discount on the annual passes was enough of a "discount" to justify our measly buy in . Now, if we were buying over 250 then the savings would not be there. When we add on it will be resale.

I will add that we toured the Riviera rooms and they were lovely, but we really like AKV and the points per night would not allow us to buy in at just 100 points.

The ability to stay at other resorts is based on the rules of how the resorts entered into the BVTC. In Jan 2019, Disney decided to..and BTvC had to agree...to allow RIV to enter these new terms, Some say it violates the rules but it’s not been legally challenged,

I think it is the slow change in the DVC product that will eventually limit all resales to home resort only.

 

[BcIcemen]

following as a resale owner

 

[DougEMG]

My two cents, as someone who is in the midst of buying a resale contract - Disney may be forced to change some of the policies. The biggest issue is that they are barring resale purchasers from staying at the new resorts but allowing owners of the new resorts to stay at the home resorts of resale purchasers. Inherent in a timeshare network is reciprocity. I get to stay at your resort and you get to stay at mine. If Disney suddenly decided to let Marriott timeshare owners stay at DVC resorts without DVC owners being allowed to stay at Marriott timeshares, that would be patently wrong and this situation isn't much different. In many ways, these new restrictions make Riviera and its future siblings a different resort.

Whether you are a direct purchaser or a resale purchaser, your maintenance fees are paying for the upkeep of your resort. By allowing new resort owners to stay at that resort without reciprocity, resale owners' property rights are being infringed. It would make a good class action suit (I say that as an attorney of 20 years although my current position bars me from litigation).

If the day comes when Disney has to address this argument, they aren't going to set up a separate system, they will likely relax all of the resale restrictions (not the perks of course).

The basic problem as I see it is that Disney is going to have to track how many points trade in and out of RIV and only allow trading in based on the number of direct points owned. In other words they need to ensure the points owned by resale owners are never available for trading.

Otherwise image this extreme example. There is only 1 owner at RIV, they are resale only. They don't book before 7 months. At 7 months a non RIV owner trades in an books the resort up. The RIV owner now can't book anything at their home resort and is of course unable to book any other resorts. Extend the example so banking does help. So essentially there are no rooms available for the resale owner to book and use their points. Would a situation like this be legal? Anyone have any idea? Because this is what I see as a real problem that could happen at RIV.

 

[Sandisw]

The basic problem as I see it is that Disney is going to have to track how many points trade in and out of RIV and only allow trading in based on the number of direct points owned. In other words they need to ensure the points owned by resale owners are never available for trading.

Otherwise image this extreme example. There is only 1 owner at RIV, they are resale only. They don't book before 7 months. At 7 months a non RIV owner trades in an books the resort up. The RIV owner now can't book anything at their home resort and is of course unable to book any other resorts. Extend the example so banking does help. So essentially there are no rooms available for the resale owner to book and use their points. Would a situation like this be legal? Anyone have any idea? Because this is what I see as a real problem that could happen at RIV.

Good point. Wonder how the first come, first serve notion of this would play a role. But, if there is something for them to book, anything at all during the UY, I think it'd fall in the legal grounds. No one is guaranteed any specific date, or room size so that would have to play a role too? For example, someone wants to go in May, but only thing available when they call are 2 bedrooms in August. I would think this would satisfy the terms of the agreement because something could be booked.

But, what happens if someone tries to book only a few months out and nothing is there...then you are right, what happens.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

The ability to stay at other resorts is based on the rules of how the resorts entered into the BVTC. In Jan 2019, Disney decided to..and BTvC had to agree...to allow RIV to enter these new terms, Some say it violates the rules but it’s not been legally challenged,

I think it is the slow change in the DVC product that will eventually limit all resales to home resort only.

To be clear - BVTC is run by the same people as DVC. The technically could be different but at this time they are the same. So once it was decided to have Riviera part of DVC was simultaneous with BVTC agreeing.

 

[eileenkeeney]

My two cents, as someone who is in the midst of buying a resale contract - Disney may be forced to change some of the policies. The biggest issue is that they are barring resale purchasers from staying at the new resorts but allowing owners of the new resorts to stay at the home resorts of resale purchasers. Inherent in a timeshare network is reciprocity. I get to stay at your resort and you get to stay at mine. If Disney suddenly decided to let Marriott timeshare owners stay at DVC resorts without DVC owners being allowed to stay at Marriott timeshares, that would be patently wrong and this situation isn't much different. In many ways, these new restrictions make Riviera and its future siblings a different resort.

Whether you are a direct purchaser or a resale purchaser, your maintenance fees are paying for the upkeep of your resort. By allowing new resort owners to stay at that resort without reciprocity, resale owners' property rights are being infringed. It would make a good class action suit (I say that as an attorney of 20 years although my current position bars me from litigation).

If the day comes when Disney has to address this argument, they aren't going to set up a separate system, they will likely relax all of the resale restrictions (not the perks of course).

Don't dues cover some of the things that resale contracts are currently not allowed to participate in? How are the member exclusive events paid for?
I expected some sort of law suit some time ago, and it hasn't happened yet (that I know of).
Resale restrictions have kept me from selling my OKW membership and then buying resale VGC. I was willing to pay the extra to do this at one point, and the thing that stopped me was resale restrictions. So far I have had good luck using my OKW points in California, but I am date and room type flexible.

 

[GCorbett]

Don't dues cover some of the things that resale contracts are currently not allowed to participate in? How are the member exclusive events paid for?
I expected some sort of law suit some time ago, and it hasn't happened yet (that I know of).
Resale restrictions have kept me from selling my OKW membership and then buying resale VGC. I was willing to pay the extra to do this at one point, and the thing that stopped me was resale restrictions. So far I have had good luck using my OKW points in California, but I am date and room type flexible.

I don't believe that they are paid from maintenance fees, since those are specifically earmarked (excuse the pun) for the home resort. The events are paid for my DVD out of their profits, most likely their marketing budget.

 

[Wakey]

Moonlight Magic is simply marketing to sell more timeshare direct. As such it’s marketing money spent by DVD.