"Ladies and Gentlemen" becoming an outdated term?

[indimom]

Absolutely. I'm not denying that there are actual transgender individuals, but I think there are also a lot of kids who question their gender unnecessarily. A boy should be able to like Princess movies and still be a boy; a girl should be able to like football and still be a girl. - Instead of encouraging people to completely change genders (with all the associated medical risks) why don't we just include more acceptable behavior within genders?

This with exclamation points!!!!! I couldn't care less about a person's sexuality or gender. But, the idea that if you enjoy sports, you should identify/become a male; or if you enjoy pink or dolls, you should identify/become a girl is just ridiculous.
Isn't this pigeon-holing people even more than traditional "gender" beliefs??
I especially think this is a bit ridiculous for small children. While there may be signs from an early age that a person will be gay or trans or something else, that doesn't mean we should be pushing these more adult decisions on small children. Just let them be a child and enjoy what they enjoy without making permanent life-altering decisions. Those decisions can come later when they are old enough to make those decisions.

I honestly feel like this is more "pushing gender stereotypes" than anything I grew up with.

 

[slpeters]

I won't pretend to understand all this non-traditional gender stuff. I'm a guy. There are guys who are more masculine than I and guys that are less. It never occurred to me to question it, and honestly I feel grateful for that. And I do occasionally fall into thinking whatever happened to butch women and effeminate men? I don't know what it would feel like to feel that you didn't fit into gender the way most people do. But the thing I'm pretty sure of is that it would feel awful and it would be very difficult.

I know that in part because I grew up gay in Utah in the seventies. And I wasn't bullied. I don't think anyone knew or even suspected, so I wasn't bullied. But I was constantly told how things were, and what was right and wrong and what was normal and what was an anomaly and the kind of life that one built to be happy. And I honestly believe it was all well intentioned but it didn't match what and who I knew I was. And so I took it all in and nobody suspected, but I really couldn't see a way, given all this input about life and how it works, that I could be me and, well, be. I couldn't see a way forward, a life that I could live--and so I tried to kill myself my senior year in high school. And if my Mother hadn't literally got off the freeway and come home on her way to work for no reason other than that she felt really strongly that she should and arrived in time to have my stomach pumped I'd just be gone. I almost missed my whole life and it's been a pretty wonderful life actually.

When I came out most people I came out to had actually never met anyone openly gay before. It would have been unreasonable to expect my parents or anyone else to have said or done the right things in case I happened to be gay. It would have been like them saying or doing the right things in case I happened to be a space alien, but times change and people know things they didn't and willful ignorance isn't the excuse that the real thing is.

I guess all this is just to say that I don't get it either. I don't know what it must feel like to really struggle with gender and to not fit into what everyone else says about it, but I know it must be hard and I know on some level it must be awful. And I know I'm going to at least try not make it worse.

 

[luvsJack]

I AGREE that children should just be children, which is why I am somewhat bothered by the hyperawareness of gender at gender reveal parties. I wasn't being inconsiderate of your opinion, I just know that my stance on them is not going to change. Parents should absolutely celebrate children that are on the way. I think celebrating based on gender is weird as hell and I think it sets a terrible precedent. I don't need you to agree with me.

And NOWHERE, NOWHERE, NOWHERE did I say there should be NO boys or girls. Obviously there are boys and there are girls. I think we should FOCUS less on what's for boys and what's for girls and just let CHILDREN BE. Which it seems like what you're saying also! There shouldn't be a reason for a boy who likes princesses to think there's anything wrong with liking princesses because princesses are for girls. You seem to be one assigning meaning to those things, not me. I think a kid who likes something should just get to LIKE IT and the fact that there are so many "girl" things and "boy" things is what can be confusing. How would it be confusing for a boy to not know it's mostly girls who likes princesses? Just like what you like, kid!

I distinctly remember there being a "boy" room when I was in preschool. That's where the blocks were and the water table and all the other "cool" stuff I liked to do. I'm sure things have changed somewhat since, but that is one of my first memories. So I don't think I'm entirely off base that kids are aware of gender stereotypes, either.

Also, respectfully, you don't know anything else about me except that I don't have my own children. You don't know if I'm around kids through family, friends or work. So I'd prefer you not putting my observations in quotes as if I have no access to how children act and react. That's very dismissive.

I seriously doubt any center today would have a “boy” room or a “girl” room.

I put your observations in quotes because I actually quoted your words from another post.

The article that was posted is just what I am talking about. No child that young should even be thinking about whether they are the right gender or if they want to change genders.

 

[porschegrl]

the idea that if you enjoy sports, you should identify/become a male; or if you enjoy pink or dolls, you should identify/become a girl is just ridiculous.

Nobody here has said this. And if anyone out in the world has said it, I would consider them the "wacky fringe," or lacking understanding of the topic in general.

 

[sam_gordon]

This with exclamation points!!!!! I couldn't care less about a person's sexuality or gender. But, the idea that if you enjoy sports, you should identify/become a male; or if you enjoy pink or dolls, you should identify/become a girl is just ridiculous.
Isn't this pigeon-holing people even more than traditional "gender" beliefs??
I especially think this is a bit ridiculous for small children. While there may be signs from an early age that a person will be gay or trans or something else, that doesn't mean we should be pushing these more adult decisions on small children. Just let them be a child and enjoy what they enjoy without making permanent life-altering decisions. Those decisions can come later when they are old enough to make those decisions.

I honestly feel like this is more "pushing gender stereotypes" than anything I grew up with.

Your post made me think... I wonder how many of those advocating "don't focus on gender" and "don't force people into male/female" just HAD to find out the sex of their child before birth so they could decorate the nursery 'appropriately' or make sure they had the 'right' clothes to bring the baby home from the hospital.

 

[tzolkin]

As far as a gender reveal goes, my lesbian niece & her wife had two gender reveal parties hosted by their LGBT friends. They obviously didn't have a problem with it.

And, no one said they did I'm one of the two posters who commented about gender reveal parties. Neither of us implied in ANY way that anyone is offended by or has a "problem with" these parties. We just both said that we PERSONALLY aren't fans of them and don't really see the point.

That said, you (and a few others on this thread) seem to be implying that there is one unified ideology that is "LGBT" that all who fall under that heading would agree upon. Almost like a specific religion where there are beliefs that are agreed upon and held in common by it's members. That is far from the reality. It's more like the general heading "Religion" where there are many different religions within that have completely different beliefs, lifestyles, etc.

And just like with Christianity, Islam, etc., these little religions don't agree on everything or even necessarily like each other. Gay men and lesbians tend to be fairly vocal about hating each other. Demographic studies of the US show that they generally don't even live in the same areas because they share little in common. The Michigan Womyn's Music Festival (a lesbian safe-haven) was shut down a few years ago over the controversy that they would only allow people "born in female bodies" (banning trans women from attending). So, there's definitely not one unified "LGBT" position on gender identity.

This with exclamation points!!!!! I couldn't care less about a person's sexuality or gender. But, the idea that if you enjoy sports, you should identify/become a male; or if you enjoy pink or dolls, you should identify/become a girl is just ridiculous.
Isn't this pigeon-holing people even more than traditional "gender" beliefs??
I especially think this is a bit ridiculous for small children. While there may be signs from an early age that a person will be gay or trans or something else, that doesn't mean we should be pushing these more adult decisions on small children. Just let them be a child and enjoy what they enjoy without making permanent life-altering decisions. Those decisions can come later when they are old enough to make those decisions.

I honestly feel like this is more "pushing gender stereotypes" than anything I grew up with.

This is absolutely an issue. My oldest was part of the trans community for several years and eventually realized how stifling it was for her. There was a strong pressure to "pick a label" and stick with it. There was a tremendous focus on what's "masculine" and "feminine" and when she started to question some of this she would be strongly attacked and threatened online and even among some of her friends at college. The belief was that she wasn't being "tolerant", but really she was just questioning the labels and why certain things were considered to be exclusive of one gender or the other. (Does one really have to become a man just because one doesn't 100% fit the mold for a woman or vice versa?)

Sexuality also plays a role into all of this. There are some subsets of people (among both trans and cisgender) who uphold the normal/natural nature of heterosexuality so strongly that they believe if you are attracted to someone of the same gender, that you must be wrong. i.e. If you're a female attracted to women, you're really supposed to be a male. So for some there's a pressure to transition in order to have their relationships accepted as a more traditional male/female coupling rather than being seen as gay or lesbian.

*Note... I'm not referring to everyone who is trans in the above, just specific people/groups whose beliefs are very rigid. Even if they're not the majority, they still can have an impact on some young people who are trying to navigate questions of their sexuality and identity.

 

[tzolkin]

Your post made me think... I wonder how many of those advocating "don't focus on gender" and "don't force people into male/female" just HAD to find out the sex of their child before birth so they could decorate the nursery 'appropriately' or make sure they had the 'right' clothes to bring the baby home from the hospital.

This is exactly what another poster and I were saying earlier in the thread. I think most people today (especially the younger generation) would say that boys and girls can have a variety of interests and shouldn't be limited to only things that are traditionally "masculine" or "feminine". But if boys and girls can enjoy the same toys and activities, can have the same careers, etc, why does it matter so much to parents whether their new baby will be a boy or a girl?

My kids are all completely different because of their individual personalities. They weren't guaranteed to turn out a certain way based on their genitalia, so I didn't care at all whether they were going to be boys or girls when they were born.

 

[mrodgers]

A non-binary person might get their period. It's also possible that someone who identifies and/or is transitioning to male still gets their period.

I thought sex and gender weren't the same thing any more. Just because someone thinks they aren't either or thinks they are a male when they are a female still doesn't change that they are female and will have their period.

 

[kiddo76]

I can’t agree more. We did absolutely nothing to encourage DS to be a boy, but as a young child he is already all boy! He loves outside, sticks, mud, puddles, balls, trucks, wheels etc more than any other toys or things he has been exposed to. He is around girl children & has no interest in the things they play with or do. I’ve seen this behavior a lot in other young children both boys & girls that I have been around. That’s why I believe the non traditional gender thing is definitely an anomaly. I do think it’s something ppl may be born with or that develops very early on, but it’s definitely not the norm. So this idea that there are so many teens struggling with their gender identity is absurd to me. I think that has a lot more to do with outside influences at that point.

My nephew is also all boy. He loved playing with his play kitchen and helping to cook. He started imaginative play at a very early age, marching around the back yard playing Dora the Explorer or Wizard of Oz (I was always the Tin Man). He liked reading and making up stories. He loves everything and anything Harry Potter (still at 18). The only car or truck he was every interested in playing with was his Mystery Machine with his Scooby Doo dolls. He tried soccer, hockey, basketball, baseball and didn't really care for any of them. He liked Cub Scouts because they did lots of crafty stuff, but dropped out once he became a Boy Scout because it became more about outdoorsy stuff that he was not interested in. He found his "groove" when my sister signed him up for a youth theater group. Singing and musical theater is his passion and college major. He is all boy.

 

[LSUmiss]

My nephew is also all boy. He loved playing with his play kitchen and helping to cook. He started imaginative play at a very early age, marching around the back yard playing Dora the Explorer or Wizard of Oz (I was always the Tin Man). He liked reading and making up stories. He loves everything and anything Harry Potter (still at 18). The only car or truck he was every interested in playing with was his Mystery Machine with his Scooby Doo dolls. He tried soccer, hockey, basketball, baseball and didn't really care for any of them. He liked Cub Scouts because they did lots of crafty stuff, but dropped out once he became a Boy Scout because it became more about outdoorsy stuff that he was not interested in. He found his "groove" when my sister signed him up for a youth theater group. Singing and musical theater is his passion and college major. He is all boy.

I get the point you’re trying to make so I’ll fix it . DS has been all stereotypical boy since for a while now & he’s only 18 mos despite exposure to many different things.

 

[skyblue17]

I thought sex and gender weren't the same thing any more. Just because someone thinks they aren't either or thinks they are a male when they are a female still doesn't change that they are female and will have their period.

They are not the same thing. Just because a person is biologically a female doesn't mean that they identify and present that way.

I seriously doubt any center today would have a “boy” room or a “girl” room.

I hope not! And I do hope that part of why that is is because people have grown a bit since the 80s, and we've realized that it's better to just let kids develop their interests organically and do what they like. It encourages acceptance early. Why does a guy I know freak out when his 4yo son likes a pink thing? Why can't his son like pink stuff? You know? All I'm really saying is that limiting opportunities for people (starting as kids) to feel other because of their interests and preferences is probably a good thing.

 

[kiddo76]

I get the point you’re trying to make so I’ll fix it . DS has been all stereotypical boy since for a while now & he’s only 18 mos despite exposure to many different things.

This is what we mean when we say gender is a social construct. There is no biological reason for these types of behaviors. It's just what a specific society labels as "boy" or "girl" behavioirs.

 

[LSUmiss]

The only thing the recent threads have taught me is that I won't be getting my social cues from the DIS. I'll trust the people I encounter in the real world for that. Otherwise, I might just make my DH or me sound silly. (see below)

I was one of those people who was apparently living under a rock & hadn't heard about the OK sign. Being a sports fan that has done the "ok sign, with raised arms" for a 3 pointer, I had my DH ask his best friend & some of his coworkers about it. They were all black & between the ages of 20 something to 50 something. None of them had ever heard of it being a white supremacist sign or heard that it was supposed to be offensive to blacks. Apparently, they thought it was pretty funny that I had him ask about something so ridiculous. Then again, none of us associate with white supremacists or go looking for things to be offended by. We're not the only people living under that rock though. I noticed a black NFL coach use the "upside down OK sign" as a play signal Sunday. Obviously, he & the players are living there with us. If not for that thread, I wouldn't have given the signal a second thought & realized just how crowded our rock was.

As far as a gender reveal goes, my lesbian niece & her wife had two gender reveal parties hosted by their LGBT friends. They obviously didn't have a problem with it.

I think this is a very good point. There’s the social media world & the real world. I’m with you that most of the time when I read about outlandish stuff on the dis I don’t know anyone irl who it relates to & often other ppl I know irl have never even heard it other than maybe on social media also. Some of the stuff I’ve read here on this very topic is one of those situations. I know one transgender person irl. He is a cousin who has had problems his whole life b/c of his parents constant ******* & his father’s emotional abuse of his wife in front of him & his mother’s alcoholism. I can’t help but believe some of his identity issues have to do with all of this. But other than wanting to go from she to he now that he is is transitioning, there is no confusion about pronouns & we don’t need an excel spreadsheet to keep up. I do realize that there are more ppl in the world than the ones I’ve come in contact with, but I also think there are ppl now who’s real world & social media world are the same thing b/c they have little social interactions with ppl outside of the internet. I think a lot of the controversy & debate about a lot of things is brought on by these ppl when most ppl irl aren’t that concerned with any of it.

 

[Party.Of.4-NY>>>FL]

And, no one said they did I'm one of the two posters who commented about gender reveal parties. Neither of us implied in ANY way that anyone is offended by or has a "problem with" these parties. We just both said that we PERSONALLY aren't fans of them and don't really see the point.
...

Perhaps you missed this post:

Gender reveal parties are SO stupid. I wish that trend would just die already.

 

[LSUmiss]

No, looking at different articles about this case that make it a little clearer, the plan is to start him on hormone blockers for "hormone suppression" at age 8-9 followed by cross-sex hormones.

I’m sorry, but that is outrageous to me if for nothing other than side effects at that young age. Like I said before, we don’t let 8 yr old make other medical decisions for themselves so how is this ok??

 

[skyblue17]

I’m sorry, but that is outrageous to me if for nothing other than side effects at that young age. Like I said before, we don’t let 8 yr old make other medical decisions for themselves so how is this ok??

I would hope that a parent knows their child well enough to make an informed decision. There are quite a few high profile cases of young children who are transgender. I recommend reading a few of them to see how the parents involved describe their children. I don't think it's a decision made lightly at all, but it's also a situation where starting hormonal treatment at a young age eases the transition later. It is complicated, and there is a lot to consider. Having two parents that are nowhere near the same page has to be incredibly difficult for all involved.

 

[LSUmiss]

This is what we mean when we say gender is a social construct. There is no biological reason for these types of behaviors. It's just what a specific society labels as "boy" or "girl" behavioirs.

Ok but there is something there. There are many many girls & boys who seem to naturally act a certain way for what is stereotypical for their genders despite exposure to all types of things & no limitations of the toys or type of play they can engage in. I’ve observed this myself in relatives & my own child & a pp also has said a similar thing. This doesn’t apply to everyone but stereotypical gender behaviors do naturally exist.

ETA: We actually try to encourage less rough & tumble behavior from DS & try to get him to engage in more quiet activities like his female counterparts (our friends’/cousin’s children), but it just ain’t happening. He is who is already.

 

[tzolkin]

Perhaps you missed this post:

Thinking something is stupid or pointless does not in any way mean that person is "offended" by it. Those are two completely different things and I was responding to the latter.

The person I quoted said that their lesbian relative had two gender reveal parties and so therefore that community didn't have a problem with gender reveal parties. No one on this thread has said that lesbians have an issue with gender reveal parties so I didn't understand the connection.

 

[luvsJack]

They are not the same thing. Just because a person is biologically a female doesn't mean that they identify and present that way.



I hope not! And I do hope that part of why that is is because people have grown a bit since the 80s, and we've realized that it's better to just let kids develop their interests organically and do what they like. It encourages acceptance early. Why does a guy I know freak out when his 4yo son likes a pink thing? Why can't his son like pink stuff? You know? All I'm really saying is that limiting opportunities for people (starting as kids) to feel other because of their interests and preferences is probably a good thing.

In the world of Early Childhood Development, those changes came from realizing that boys need to learn how to be dad's so they needed to play with dolls and play in the kitchen. And some boys (as someone above mentioned) like it. But the vast majority, found a way to make into their kind of play. Toy food became balls, baby bottles became guns.

I had a few (as in very few) Dads that would see their son in the pretend play area and say "BOY! what are you doing playing with dolls?" I would just smile and say "he is learning to be as good a dad someday as his dad is". And they left it alone.

My problem isn't what you are saying or giving all kids the choices to play with whatever they want or like whatever they want. They shouldn't be made to fit a gender stereotype, I agree. They also shouldn't be told or pushed or even have it mentioned to them that they may be the wrong gender or they aren't really a "boy" or a "girl". Some of them may at some point in their life decide this but as children, they are just children and its not even something that should be discussed.

 

[LSUmiss]

In the world of Early Childhood Development, those changes came from realizing that boys need to learn how to be dad's so they needed to play with dolls and play in the kitchen. And some boys (as someone above mentioned) like it. But the vast majority, found a way to make into their kind of play. Toy food became balls, baby bottles became guns.

I had a few (as in very few) Dads that would see their son in the pretend play area and say "BOY! what are you doing playing with dolls?" I would just smile and say "he is learning to be as good a dad someday as his dad is". And they left it alone.

My problem isn't what you are saying or giving all kids the choices to play with whatever they want or like whatever they want. They shouldn't be made to fit a gender stereotype, I agree. They also shouldn't be told or pushed or even have it mentioned to them that they may be the wrong gender or they aren't really a "boy" or a "girl". Some of them may at some point in their life decide this but as children, they are just children and its not even something that should be discussed.

Yes everything round to DS is a ball! We never even gave him a ball. The first stuff he started throwing were fake fruits from a kitchen set & this was at 9 mos old. The boy likes to throw. That’s not something I taught him & it’s actually more of a challenge to try to teach him NOT to throw! He has a doll stroller at “school” that he plays with but he’s obsessed with the wheels. All more typical “girl” toys that he finds a more typical “boy” way to play with.