"Ladies and Gentlemen" becoming an outdated term?

[Hikergirl]

Gender discrimination came up. And it was expanded to include transgender people this year.

I’m not an attorney. However, I do have to handle harassment complaints. If the language is making someone feel uncomfortable, then it’s a legitimate complaint. It doesn’t matter what, I think. It matters what the person making the complaint thinks and feels. Then it’s up to the lawyers.

No it doesn't, feelings don't matter, laws do.

 

[mjkacmom]

I made a doctor appointment today with a new provider and among the questions I was asked was, “Do you identify as the gender that is on your birth certificate?” It amused me quite a bit. I couldn’t help wondering if it took a team of lawyers and HR folks to come up with the exact wording.

Actually they might want to update that. A friend’s child was born female, transitioned to male (hormones and breast removal), lives in a male college dorm, and his birth certificate and driver’s license both say male. However, I’m sure it would be beneficial for the doctor to have the whole story for health reasons.

 

[Hikergirl]

Some people will always have a hard time adapting to societal changes. Ask yourself if the change will adversely affect your life. If not, suck it up. Maybe, just maybe, YOU are the snowflake.

Personally I try to go with the flow and refrain from clutching my pearls.

Nope it's pretty much the mentally fragile that need to be coddled because hearing terms like "ladies and gentlemen" when addressing a group of people,makes them feel like they aren't included, who are the snowflakes.
I'm willing to bet it isn't even the gender fluid, non-binary people who care, it's the so woke SJWs who need to fight for everyone's feelings who have the issue with it. Well everyone that doesn't disagree with them anyway.

 

[DLgal]

I think it has been outdated for some time. Ladies and Gentlemen sounds "old timey" to me.

I hate "ma'am/miss" with a passion. "Sir" is used independent of age or marital status. Why do women have to be labeled as such? It is so condescending.

The English language really needs a gender neutral third-person singular pronoun. I know several people who prefer the pronoun "they", which is cool with me. However, after years of proper grammar being drilled into me, my brain kind of short circuits to use "they" in referring to a single person. But that's my issue to get over.

Lady actually means "mistress of a household, wife of a lord" and the word comes from Old English and German words that literally mean "one who kneads bread." Talk about outdated and old fashioned, not to mention it completely leaves out unmarried women as well.

"They" has been an acceptable singular first person pronoun for several hundred years in literature. In the 18th century, some scholars decided to have an issue with it. It's the way "English" was taught in US schools that drilled in that it is only to be used as a plural pronoun.

https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/
Word origins are fascinating and when words are viewed with their history in mind, it does make sense to update the terms we use from time to time to more accurately reflect the society in which we live.

 

[Kestryl]

I’m just going to continue to refer to people how they want to be referred to. If someone tells me that their name is John, I’m not going to say nope, you look like a Jane, I’m gonna call you that. Same with pronouns. I might mess up, and I hope that everyone is patient with me. I’m going to attempt to use the correct pronouns, title, and name for each individual.

Anyway, I’m more annoyed by titles. If you’re going to require a title for anything, you need more than Mr., Ms., and Mrs. I’m a Dr, dang it. But it shouldn’t matter for a library card application.

 

[skyblue17]

Nope it's pretty much the mentally fragile that need to be coddled because hearing terms like ladies and gentlemen who are the snowflakes.
I'm willing to bet it isn't even the gender fluid, non-binary people who care, it's the so woke SJWs who need to fight for everyone's feelings who have the issue with it. Well everyone that doesn't disagree with them anyway.

I am relatively certain that anyone who is ostracized for any reason appreciates when they are considered and included as they are.

I'm struggling to understand why your, or anyone who objects, feelings matter more than those who are actually affected by a change like this. It clearly bothers you. You'd rather it not happen. Can you explain why your preference is more important?

 

[Hikergirl]

I am relatively certain that anyone who is ostracized for any reason appreciates when they are considered and included as they are.

I'm struggling to understand why your, or anyone who objects, feelings matter more than those who are actually affected by a change like this. It clearly bothers you. You'd rather it not happen. Can you explain why your preference is more important?

Rather what didn't happen? The decision of the airline to change the way they greet their passengers?
I'm not sure I ever said my preference is more important, so there is nothing to explain further than what I've already said.
Now, I don't care what an airline chooses to call their passengers, I wouldn't even care if they called everyone monkeys, I don't get offended by such things.
My issue is that we have gone off the deep end trying to appease everyone's "feelings". I mean really, now it's going to be wrong to address a group of men and women as "ladies and gentlemen" because there may be a very slim chance that someone in that group may not feel like a man or a woman? Please note, I am not talking about transgender people, as they do identify as either a man or a woman and therefore would be living as the gender the identify as. A transgender male- gentlemen, a transgender female- lady.
Is that phrase really offensive, or are people just looking to be offended by?
I 'm not talking about individuals, if an individual comes up to me and asks me to refer to them as he, she, or they, or whatever else then fine but if its some general greeting for a group of people, then they really need to get over themselves, nobody is trying to personally isolate or offend them by using the term ladies and gentlemen. Therefore IMO it is ridiculous to (force) change in the way we communicate because a tiny fraction of the people feel like they are being excluded.

 

[Colleen27]

I've always hated the phrase "ladies and "gentleman." They are such archaic, outdated terms. Not all males are gentlemen by definition.

Similarly, not all females are "ladies." Men and women is more technically correct, and I always thought ladies and gentlemen just sounded pompous and kind of stupid.

Everyone seems to be a good, all encompassing term.

I'm with you. I think it is an outdated term for reasons having absolutely nothing to do with gender identity and everything to do with the fact that they're gendered rules that carry the weight of a whole host of outdated social expectations with them. "Act like a lady" has been used for a very long time to badger and nag the energy, curiosity and spirit out of girls, not because they don't identify as female but because they don't embrace the passive ideal embodied by the term. I won't miss it.

And really, it is entirely unnecessary to even have that greeting. "Good morning! Welcome aboard..." works just as well as "Ladies and gentlemen, welcome aboard..." if the idea is a friendly tone and avoids the whole question of how to most appropriately refer to a mixed-gender group of unknown personal preferences.

Instead of that, just say "y'all."

Like...
"Welcome aboard, y'all. Please buckle your seatbelts. We are ready to depart."

My kids harass me because I use the word y'all in conversation, despite being a lifelong Yankee and an English major to boot, but seriously, the English language is sorely in need of a gender-neutral plural to refer to groups. And y'all fits the bill despite its informality.

What if you can't tell their gender by looking at them? I did experience that at least once when working in retail and another time in college. I studiously avoided using any gender specific words in reference to them, admittedly mostly because I didn't want to embarrass myself by mis-gendering them.

I hate the "ma'am/sir" habit for that reason. In person, you'd never get me wrong... but I can't tell you how many times I've been called "sir" over the phone and it used to make me really self-conscious. I know I don't have a particularly high voice and I have a pretty direct pattern of speech, but I'm still female, dammit. Not using gendered language unless you're 100% sure of the gender of the person you're talking to should be a fundamental rule of customer service.

 

[skyblue17]

Rather what didn't happen? The decision of the airline to change the way they greet their passengers?
I'm not sure I ever said my preference is more important, so there is nothing to explain further than what I've already said.
Now, I don't care what an airline chooses to call their passengers, I wouldn't even care if they called everyone monkeys, I don't get offended by such things.
My issue is that we have gone off the deep end trying to appease everyone's "feelings". I mean really, now it's going to be wrong to address a group of men and women as "ladies and gentlemen" because there may be a very slim chance that someone in that group may not feel like a man or a woman?
Is that phrase really offensive, or are people just looking to be offended by?
Now, I 'm not talking about individuals, if an individual comes up to me and asks me to refer to them as he, she, or they, or whatever else then fine but if its some general greeting for a group of people, then they really need to get over themselves, nobody is trying to personally isolate or offend them by using the term ladies and gentlemen.

Your tone and how you're discussing it makes it seem like you do think your preference is more important. It doesn't affect you at ALL but you're throwing out things like "snowflake" and "mentally fragile" so it's pretty easy to infer that you think your take on it is the correct one.

Anyway, you start a whole new cycle when you get into appeasing feelings. Because where does it end? Now the people who's feelings are affected by this development will go on about THEIR feelings. So should it be changed back to appease them?

And it might not even be that it's offensive, it might be that there are more effective ways to be more inclusive. It seems like those who object to things like this always jump to people being offended first. Guess what? You can only be so offended by this stuff because it's constant and it's everywhere and even when there's an effort made to decrease it and be more inclusive, there's people doubling down on how it's messing with their own view of the world.

It's possible to view this as a way to broaden the scope of how we refer to each other, and how we view each other, and maybe even introduce that it's time to adapt a little but instead, your take away is that people need to get over themselves? Perhaps take your own advice?

 

[Klayfish]

I mean really, now it's going to be wrong to address a group of men and women as "ladies and gentlemen" because there may be a very slim chance that someone in that group may not feel like a man or a woman?

C'mon, sing it with me now... You make me feel, you make me feel, you make me feel like a natural woman.

Or wait, is that song no longer PC?

 

[Hikergirl]

Your tone and how you're discussing it makes it seem like you do think your preference is more important. It doesn't affect you at ALL but you're throwing out things like "snowflake" and "mentally fragile" so it's pretty easy to infer that you think your take on it is the correct one.

Anyway, you start a whole new cycle when you get into appeasing feelings. Because where does it end? Now the people who's feelings are affected by this development will go on about THEIR feelings. So should it be changed back to appease them?

And it might not even be that it's offensive, it might be that there are more effective ways to be more inclusive. It seems like those who object to things like this always jump to people being offended first. Guess what? You can only be so offended by this stuff because it's constant and it's everywhere and even when there's an effort made to decrease it and be more inclusive, there's people doubling down on how it's messing with their own view of the world.

It's possible to view this as a way to broaden the scope of how we refer to each other, and how we view each other, and maybe even introduce that it's time to adapt a little but instead, your take away is that people need to get over themselves? Perhaps take your own advice?

I'm discussing it like everyone else. and I didn't throw out the term snowflake, I responded to the poster who did in order to describe those who aren't on board with societal changes. But maybe when it's used to describe "us" that's OK in your book?
(to the bolded) why would I do that, I'm not the one seeking to change things to make me feel better.

 

[sam_gordon]

If the language is making someone feel uncomfortable, then it’s a legitimate complaint. It doesn’t matter what, I think. It matters what the person making the complaint thinks and feels. Then it’s up to the lawyers.

A legitimate complaint to a company does not mean it's legitimate in the eyes of the law. A company will probably error totally on the side of caution. That doesn't mean the complainant has a valid legal claim for discrimination.

Non-binary. Genderfluid. Genderqueer is another term used. All it takes is realizing that the strict parameters for gender that have existed for so long don't apply to everyone.

I thought that sometimes they'll identify as a male and sometimes they identify as a female. Was that incorrect? They still identify as one or the other at a given time, yes?

 

[skyblue17]

I'm discussing it like everyone else. and I didn't throw out the term snowflake, I responded to the poster who did in order to describe those who aren't on board with societal changes. But maybe when it's used to describe "us" that's OK in your book?
(to the bolded) why would I do that, I'm not the one seeking to change things to make me feel better.

Ok, so it's just the "mentally fragile" people then. I hate how the word snowflake is used, actually, and cringe when I see it.

So you do agree that people who are different should have to just deal with things that could easily be changed simply because it might make you do a little more work? You never did answer if you apply this to all situations where small minorities have adaptations made to make their life easier or more comfortable, or only here.

 

[b2k1121]

These stories are always so funny to me because it always ends up with more people acting offended by whatever the change is than people that were offended in the first place. And it's always the people that complain about other people being offended all the time. There's no evidence that anyone was even asking this airline to make any changes. There's no suggestion in the article that anyone was actually offended by 'ladies and gentleman'.

I can't imagine mustering the energy to care about this. How does it affect you in any way? If some people feel more included and it's not hurting you, then who cares?

Every flight I'm on could start their announcement with, 'Good afternoon, you stupid idiots...' and I wouldn't care, or 'Good afternoon to only the aliens on board with us' and I still wouldn't care. It's just a greeting that no one is listening to anyways. I guess what I'm trying to say is just deal with it and stop being so offended all the time.

 

[skyblue17]

I thought that sometimes they'll identify as a male and sometimes they identify as a female. Was that incorrect? They still identify as one or the other at a given time, yes?

Do you wake up every morning and think "I'm a man. Today I am my manly man self!" Do you even THINK about your gender on a regular basis? Can you imagine if every day, someone said to you "are you a man today? How's your manly masculinity going today?"

 

[Klayfish]

Do you wake up every morning and think "I'm a man. Today I am my manly man self!" Do you even THINK about your gender on a regular basis? Can you imagine if every day, someone said to you "are you a man today? How's your manly masculinity going today?"

Yeah, they're called man cards. My wife will tell you I lost mine.

 

[RamblingMad]

A legitimate complaint to a company does not mean it's legitimate in the eyes of the law. A company will probably error totally on the side of caution. That doesn't mean the complainant has a valid legal claim for discrimination.

Given that folks have slowly voted away their employee protections since the 80s, an employer can still terminate and not really worry about the letter of the law.

If an employee is made to feel uncomfortable pervasively, then that’s good enough. Employees rarely win suits against their employers for wrongful termination. Most of these suits fail.

The reality is that folks needs to be civil and inclusive.

 

[b2k1121]

Nope it's pretty much the mentally fragile that need to be coddled because hearing terms like "ladies and gentlemen" when addressing a group of people,makes them feel like they aren't included, who are the snowflakes.
I'm willing to bet it isn't even the gender fluid, non-binary people who care, it's the so woke SJWs who need to fight for everyone's feelings who have the issue with it. Well everyone that doesn't disagree with them anyway.

Nope it's pretty much the mentally fragile that need to be coddled because hearing terms like 'everyone' when addressing a group of people, makes them feel angry because everyone is included, who are the snowflakes.

The only people I see who even care about this are the easily offended group that gets angry whenever something that has no impact on their lives changes.

 

[kiddo76]

I thought that sometimes they'll identify as a male and sometimes they identify as a female. Was that incorrect? They still identify as one or the other at a given time, yes?

The 2 people I know who prefer the pronoun "they" do not identify as exclusively male or female at any given time. They don't switch back and forth, they are always nonbinary.

 

[sam_gordon]

These stories are always so funny to me because it always ends up with more people acting offended by whatever the change is than people that were offended in the first place. And it's always the people that complain about other people being offended all the time. There's no evidence that anyone was even asking this airline to make any changes. There's no suggestion in the article that anyone was actually offended by 'ladies and gentleman'.

I can't imagine mustering the energy to care about this. How does it affect you in any way? If some people feel more included and it's not hurting you, then who cares?

Every flight I'm on could start their announcement with, 'Good afternoon, you stupid idiots...' and I wouldn't care, or 'Good afternoon to only the aliens on board with us' and I still wouldn't care. It's just a greeting that no one is listening to anyways. I guess what I'm trying to say is just deal with it and stop being so offended all the time.

So it's ok for you to comment regarding your opinions, but if someone has a different opinion, they're acting "offended"? I personally don't care what the airline says. But I think this is an interesting discussion. If you'd rather not, that's fine.