kids not being taught how to write in cursive at schools, anymore?

[Lisa loves Pooh]

To swing this back to the original topic, just how much of a prayer do you think those disadvantaged kids will have at getting that really great grant or scholarship to that wonderful private college if they can't manage that longhand essay on the SAT? So-called cursive does have some value to MOST people who have to write by hand in their everyday lives. Some people can print just as fast, but the norm is that cursive is faster. I'd say it's good to use what works best for you in whatever context it's appropriate, but don't lets discount the value of teaching kids both and giving them that choice.

I'm wondering if this trend is global? I'm betting that it is not, and that matters, too.

Interesting question. I don't know the answer...but wanted to make a couple of points...

Folks comment on the Asians and their education. They learn characters, not. Phonetic alphabet to speak and write their language. I can't tell one character to another...but I'm sure it cannot be easy. I have a good friend that I met in college. She was born and raised in the USA but is 100% Chinese. She speaks fluent Chinese but is illiterate in Chinese. So she thought she would take it in college. She is a brilliant girl, but the language dept made her take level II since she was fluent. She had to drop the class as she was failing it because she had to learn the characters and didn't have the level I foundation to build on. I can only imagine that it is not an easy lNguage to learn to write.

I had a pen pal in High School from Japan. For us it was for Geography/World Cultures and foe her it was to develop her written conversation skills in English. She PRINTED. No cursive. Very neat, but with some flair to it. She would include a little Japanese--character, alphabet and English translation. The latter to in print.

My final examples to ponder....

What was the public thought when the following items were invented and added different ways to communicate:

Papyrus...printing press...typewriter...computer...
Morse code....telegrams....telephone...cell phone...video phone

Communication is alway evolving...does Spaceahip Earth ring a bell.

Presently, I M in Williamsburg and the time travel back to the 18th century can be a hoot at times. We toured the printing office today and when I read a comment on this thread Bout technology dumbing down things...I had to laugh.

Correspondence to me...what you say and how you say if trumps format. For if the latter were most important....well, the ship of good manners sailed centuries ago as each invention that made communicating easier broke some etiquette rule as being uncivilized.

So those spouting off about tact should be mindful that even some of the things they so not consider tacky, at one time probably were. Invitations Nd RSVPs is a good one. A woman wearing pants is another. If we wanted to go into a full blown "tacky" discussion....women evidently at one point in history would not play a violin as that would cause her sleeves to drop reveLing her elbow. Inppropriate shenanigans and we can't have that.

 

[disneymom3]

if you really want a good laugh.....my DS, when he was taking his SAT a couple of years ago told me that most of the kids said that the most time consuming and problematic issue was that they had to do a certain section in cursive.....

Yep. THey don't teach it but you are supposed to know it. As I understand it, second hand from my sister, it used to be you could write in cursive or print but they found that the kids who wrote in cursive scored MUCH higher on the essay portion so they started making cursive part of the deal. (She used to score essays of the SATs as a side job to her teaching.) The idea that cursive writing kids score higher is that the writing when you are decent at it takes less time than printing. Cursive writers tend to use more complex sentence structure and more advanced vocabulary. Again, this is what my sister told me. I don't have any websites etc to back that up.


This is the list for all schools that received the Blue Ribbon schools award from 2003-2009. http://www2.ed.gov/programs/nclbbrs/list-2003.pdf Just for informations sake.

You don't even want to know!

It is a new way of teaching Math - but when my DS goes into 6th. grade they will teach Math the way we all learned it.

The way they teach division is crazy they use a lattice method, plus they don't stay on 1 area long enough for the to get it - If you go on YouTube there is a video about 15 minutes long the woman did a report on it and showed division and multiplying the way we learned and the Everyday Math way.

Plus if our kids need help with Math - we don't know how to do it and you try and show them how we do it and they keep saying that isn't how they are teaching us!

I tried to use Everyday Math in homeschooling when my daughter was in fourth grade. Now, I LOVE math. But I could not figure out how to teach that darn curriculum to save my life. It was SO confusing!! I had to ditch it and go with Singapore which made a lot more sense and earns them the highest math scores in the world. (Or close to it.) And talk about basic. They say "Add this. Multiply that."

 

[WeLoveLilo05]

Why is it "weird" if one prints his signature? It's still his or her signature .

Well for example, today filling out DDs paperwork for school it asked to PRINT my name and then SIGN my name.

 

[PearlySwan]

We went to the moon using slide rules (and some computers).

^^^ And with all the advancement in technologies since that time we haven't been back to the Moon. Go figure!

 

[Mimi1965]

Not according to the program goals on the website-it even states that if a school earns this designation it continues to be able to claim itself as a blue ribbon school unless told otherwise-look up the history of the program--it even talks about how communities can use this in recruiting businesses, real estate agents can use this as a sales tool, principals can use this on resumes, etc. You can only apply once every 5 years.

Could you provide a link?


I think the school can say "Recipient of the Blue Ribbon School Honor in 2002"

 

[cm8]

It is not even a general rule. A criterion is general rule if it is generally-accepted. A criterion about which people disagree, as in this case, isn't a general rule.

I agree that it would be tacky for someone, such as yourself, to do it, since you yourself feel it would be tacky. Again, it's a matter of judging someone by their standards, on matters where people disagree.

Hallmark is in business to sell greeting cards. The industry has made up myriad occasions that suddenly need greeting cards that did not need such in the past. A single industry's vested financial interest is not a firm basis on which to set social standards.

Indeed. I think several of us noted that inconsistency in the OP, that the thread seemed to be about cursive, but the OP seemed to indicate that the absence of cursive meant that letters therefore could not be written. However, since it was the OP, I don't think we can say that it is off-topic; rather, we can just note that the thread subject doesn't seem to match the OP. I'm not sure it really serves much purpose, though, to discuss the discussion to that depth, though.


Yes, this is critical imho: The point of writing, despite Big Cuddly Bear's insinuation, is to express thoughts and feelings. Therefore, respect for the reader dictates that writers use the means of communication that is best at expressing thoughts and feelings. Legible print clearly wins, over illegible cursive. Indeed, I feel that, in most cases, legible print wins, over legible cursive, since in most cases people can print more legibly than they can write cursive.

 

[Becky2005]

The *only* thing our teachers make the kids write in cursive is their name "so they can sign their checks" -- although with direct deposit now, not sure how much longer that will be necessary.

Of course....I think legally you can still sign with an X as long as you have a witness (I have no clue though).

I know they teach it here. Some 5th grade teachers really push it & then they get to Middle School and it's never required again.

 

[SandrA9810]

I think cursive is one of those things, once you're taught, you never really forget.

While I might have to think a second or two, I'm sure I could remember all the capitalized letters in cursive. It's also like typing. Once you learn how to type, it's something you'll never truly forget, even if you start off a little slow.

How many people have not ridden a bike in the past 5 years?? Could you still get on and feel right at ease? (that is there's nothing physically different that would prevent you now).

 

[bicker]

Of course the need for food would be more critical if technology failed, but I wasn't really referring to all technology suddenly crashing.

In which case, the need to write cursive, and the need to send greeting cards, are not that important, which was my point.

 

[crashbb]

Could you provide a link?


I think the school can say "Recipient of the Blue Ribbon School Honor in 2002"

The deterioration of Minnesota schools is rather sad, isn't it?

I was taught cursive in school, but tend to print when writing notes or letters. I could write in cursive if I told to do so, I just prefer to print.

The signature thing is interesting - mine is very clearly my full name (in cursive), but so many people I know basically have scribbles for a signature (and often only a few letters of their name). This includes adults old enough to have definitely been taught penmanship in school, so it isn't because they don't know how to write out their full name - they just don't. I think the idea behind not printing your name, is that printing is easier to copy than cursive or "scribbles".

 

[sjs314]

Thanks for the reply, I think if the schools went back to teaching the way they did 40 or 50 years ago things would be better.

Mine went to an old fashioned school I guess. I never really thought about it at the time. Last one just graduated this past year. They had Mass every Wednesday. Prayers before each class. Every senior went on to school, they first half of the class pertty much had their choice of school. The sports teams dominate each year, most of the senior baseball players get drafted. I think every girl basketball player got a scholarship of some kind this past year. If a student misbehaves they are punished, if it keeps up they get thrown out. I think the old way of schooling is better.

My dad tells of in his day they sat the students by smartest to dumbest, imagine getting away with that now.

When my youngest DS was in fifth grade(20 years ago) instead of traditional row seating they devided the pupils up into groups of 4 , my son came home one day very disturbed telling me he was sitting with the "dumb" kids

Not long after that we had teacher conferences and upon questioning the teacher she explained the reasoning yes he was sitting in a group with 3 other pupils who were not good in math etc so that he might be able to help them as it was found students learned better that way sometimes than from the teacher.

 

[golfgal]

Could you provide a link?


I think the school can say "Recipient of the Blue Ribbon School Honor in 2002"

It's all there in my other post, look it up.

 

[Mimi1965]

It's all there in my other post, look it up.

I really don't have time to scan your 23,000 posts today

I looked at the website of the High School my kids attended

In the letterhead they list
Dept of education Blue ribbon school
and the 3 years they recieved it-it was in 5 year increments

They haven't gotten it in a few years-however they post the schools SAT score averages-which are better than the state and better than the National Average

But even when my kids went there . I never boasted that it was a Blue ribbon school.

It was the best HS here, private and expensive and we gave up a few things to provide this education for our kids.

 

[luvsJack]

In which case, the need to write cursive, and the need to send greeting cards, are not that important, which was my point.

Well, I guess if you put it that way you certainly have a point.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I understand that there are people out there that CHOOSE not to make it a priority to make their life better. No one said it was EASY. I realize that we are very lucky to have the schools we have and we spent a lot of time researching schools when we moved here. I also have to say that DH and I both came from homes with not a lot of money, in fact, by today's standards we were probably both brought up in homes with below or close to poverty level incomes. Getting an education was never an option though.

Oh I fully agree that there are people who do not have these priorities and choose not to work for their child's education and to spend money on things i would consider much less important. I just do not think everyone in a situation of not living where schools have computers for everyone is just not caring about their kids. I know many people HAVE worked themselves up from nothing and made a good living for themselves and their children (mt grandmother--the daughter of sharecroppers who had to quit school at 8th grade to work is a great example of that and my mom built on that and I--first one to go to college--built even further and I know many who were much worse off than I was; though precious few worse off than my grandmother's childhood). I also know that some people work as hard as my grandmother did and cannot manage to get that far ahead anyway--or at least not fast enough to make a difference for their kids in terms of things like computers NOW. Life is not black and white--there is a lot of grey.

Ah, I told myself I was done here, but I just can't resist saying one more thing: Those of us who HAVE managed to pull off Golfgal's "bootstrap" miracles almost universally feel that we succeeded in spite of the schools that went to, not because of them.

It wasn't about any material thing that we were given until we got to the point of needing merit scholarships or Federal grants to pay college tuition. What came before was much less tangible -- we did what we had to to survive and to overcome, sometimes because it was expected by our parents, but much more often just because we wanted to -- that particular drive is one that has to come from inside you if it is going to bear fruit. (And I'm not going to allow this to become a political thread, but the reality is that there are a lot fewer college grant dollars available to poor kids than there were 25 years ago -- check the Chronicle of Higher Ed for more information on that topic.)

To swing this back to the original topic, just how much of a prayer do you think those disadvantaged kids will have at getting that really great grant or scholarship to that wonderful private college if they can't manage that longhand essay on the SAT? So-called cursive does have some value to MOST people who have to write by hand in their everyday lives. Some people can print just as fast, but the norm is that cursive is faster. I'd say it's good to use what works best for you in whatever context it's appropriate, but don't lets discount the value of teaching kids both and giving them that choice.

I'm wondering if this trend is global? I'm betting that it is not, and that matters, too.

Again--no one seems to be able to cite any study that truly says cursive is faster I think those kids need to know how to write a good essay--whether it is on a computer, in cursive or printing. I am not opposed to teaching cursive, but I do not think it is a priority either.
As far as it being global--I know I printed in Spain in the late 80s.
My kids have attended two German schools. They are required to write with Fullers which are old fashioned looking ink pens (with cartridges) that have the calligraphy looking metal nibs on them (I wish I knew how to post a photo that is not from my computer, but rather from the internet, as an example). Both kids in both schools (so by now we are looking at grades 5,6, 8, and 9) have been allowed to choose for themselves if they will print to use cursive. I would love to see others in other school systems world wide comment on what is done there.

 

[luvsJack]

The deterioration of Minnesota schools is rather sad, isn't it?

I was taught cursive in school, but tend to print when writing notes or letters. I could write in cursive if I told to do so, I just prefer to print.

The signature thing is interesting - mine is very clearly my full name (in cursive), but so many people I know basically have scribbles for a signature (and often only a few letters of their name). This includes adults old enough to have definitely been taught penmanship in school, so it isn't because they don't know how to write out their full name - they just don't. I think the idea behind not printing your name, is that printing is easier to copy than cursive or "scribbles".

That is exactly why our FA office requires a signature in cursive (or if we had a parent that could not read or write--"X" with the signature of a witness). We have to know that we are getting the parent's information and the student is not just signing it for them and giving false information.

My son's signature is only clear on the first letter of each name--the rest illegible but it would be very hard to copy. Its also his "autograph" for all the wrestling groupies that hang around the ring.

 

[sjs314]

Oh I fully agree that there are people who do not have these priorities and choose not to work for their child's education and to spend money on things i would consider much less important. I just do not think everyone in a situation of not living where schools have computers for everyone is just not caring about their kids. I know many people HAVE worked themselves up from nothing and made a good living for themselves and their children (mt grandmother--the daughter of sharecroppers who had to quit school at 8th grade to work is a great example of that and my mom built on that and I--first one to go to college--built even further and I know many who were much worse off than I was; though precious few worse off than my grandmother's childhood). I also know that some people work as hard as my grandmother did and cannot manage to get that far ahead anyway--or at least not fast enough to make a difference for their kids in terms of things like computers NOW. Life is not black and white--there is a lot of grey.




Again--no one seems to be able to cite any study that truly says cursive is faster I think those kids need to know how to write a good essay--whether it is on a computer, in cursive or printing. I am not opposed to teaching cursive, but I do not think it is a priority either.
As far as it being global--I know I printed in Spain in the late 80s.
My kids have attended two German schools. They are required to write with Fullers which are old fashioned looking ink pens (with cartridges) that have the calligraphy looking metal nibs on them (I wish I knew how to post a photo that is not from my computer, but rather from the internet, as an example). Both kids in both schools (so by now we are looking at grades 5,6, 8, and 9) have been allowed to choose for themselves if they will print to use cursive. I would love to see others in other school systems world wide comment on what is done there.

I know exactly what type of pen you mean as I use one myself when I use Calligraphy to write out my Christmas Cards and envelopes, it looks so much more festive.
Using those types of pens forces one to keep their hand up off of the paper(or risk bluring of the ink) as is /or was taught years ago in penmenship making the writing(cursive) more legible. I find it impressive that those writting instruments are required in German Schools

 

[doxdogy]

The DOD and DA forms that I deal with on a daily basis require a signature and on some forms initials too. If they weren't SIGNED in cursive, I had to kick them back to the person signing the document. Thankfully we are slowly but surely going over to a digital signature using one's CAC card and it does make life easier for me. There are still a few forms that it is actually easier to sign it and not use the CAC card.

Please, explain that to several FEDERAL GOVERNMENT agencies that require forms from our students. They will send the forms back if not signed in cursive with a note "MUST be signed". They will not accept a printed name except on the "printed name" line.

I have seen the forms come back many times when someone accidently printed on the wrong line. (and they printed in both places)

 

[Dictator]

Could you provide a link?


I think the school can say "Recipient of the Blue Ribbon School Honor in 2002"

I asked her twice to provide a link. she cant or won't. Either way, she's avoiding.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Again--no one seems to be able to cite any study that truly says cursive is faster I think those kids need to know how to write a good essay--whether it is on a computer, in cursive or printing. I am not opposed to teaching cursive, but I do not think it is a priority either.

Totally and completely agree....

There are many here who know that I pulled my son out of our public school system... Yes, I see MANY serious issues...

Believe me, whether my son was required to learn cursive was NOT one of them!

Who would even begin to place such judgement and be so personally upset by a type of handwriting!