Kerry Gains Among Undecideds

[dmadman43]

postdebate Gallup poll Kerry loses by winning


Expressed himself more clearly

Kerry 60% Bush 32%

Had a good understanding of the issues
Kerry 41% Bush41%

Agreed with you more on the issues you care about
Kerry 46% Bush 49%

Was more believable
Kerry 45% Bush 50%

Was more likable
Kerry 41% Bush 48%

Demonstrated he is tough enough for the job
Kerry 37% Bush 54%

 

[Gupsmom]

the least you could do is attribute the author of this tripe

umm...the sources are quoted through the post.

Jess

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by Gupsmom
umm...the sources are quoted through the post.

Jess

the web site, please. Unless you are saying you reseached these individually all on your own?

 

[Gupsmom]

the web site, please. Unless you are saying you reseached these individually all on your own?

I cant give the web site that this is posted on because it's a private parentings board.. I will see if I can find it posted on another site. I'm sure it is.

The sources to each quote are listed. The ones I have checked have been accurate. If you doubt the validity of the sources, it would be easy enough to search them. Let me know if you find them incorrect.

Jess

 

[LoraJ]

Those Bush flip-flops show up on just about every single message board and have been gathered by many people I believe. You can google each line and find their direct sources. I googled one that just had Bush's name:

"They've got the quota system in place -- the allotment system -- and I don't think that needs to be changed." [President Bush, 5/04]


I got 472 results and it was printed in credible newspapers.

And you call this tripe? Why? Facts are now Tripe?

 

[Rokkitsci]

Originally posted by Gupsmom

President Bush: Flip-Flopper-In-Chief ....blah .. blah .. blah ..... ad naseaum.

Jess

I have seen this list several times. It originated originally from Moveon.org. There may have been some additions or deletions since then, but I rarely spend time reading a known robotic recitation of silliness. When I see that list I always imagine the poster typing while humming = "if I only had a brain."

Here is my reaction - it is in two parts - pay attention, please.

Number ONE

The world changed on September 11, 2001. The world received the final wake-up call that nothing would ever be the same again. The fact that we had engaged the "snooze alarm" for the previous 10 years did not matter after the clarion call of 9-11.

Those who maintain ideas fixated on the security situation as commonly accepted on September 10, 2001 are just idiotic.

To the extent that any of the 'flip flops' listed pertain to situations as perceived post-9/11 as compared to situations pre-9/11, the posters proclaim themselves to be clinically stupid and/or hackneyed partisans without honor.


Number TWO

If the "flip-flops" do NOT pertain to the situations as perceived both before and after 9-11, then I am not concerned about them. I will sort all of that out AFTER our national security is taken care of.

It is interesting to me, though, that the Kerry supporters can defend HIS flip-flops on SECURITY matters with the retort that he is "nuanced" in his approach to problems - that he sees the "complexity" of problems and appeals to both sides - that he would rather wait for a "perfect" accomodation of all opinions than to take decisive action.

All the while, the same partisans love to deride Bush in his LACK of such 'nuance' capacity. Yet when he DOES alter a position of minor importance, they cannot wait to proclaim HIM as the 'flip-flopper.'

It is obvious that this 'flip-flop' message is intended to insulate Kerry from the charge that HE flip-flops on matters CRITICAL to our national security.

 

[GoldenGate]

Originally posted by Sonny Eclipse
Bush came across as a bumbling idiot and anyone who can't see that scares me. Kerry won that debate hands down. I'm at a loss why anyone would want to endure another 4 years of this mess.

Because the Bushie lemmings will follow their "leader" no matter what he says or does.

 

[faithinkarma]

If the "flip-flops" do NOT pertain to the situations as perceived both before and after 9-11, then I am not concerned about them. I will sort all of that out AFTER our national security is taken care of.

I see, so now that the Bush flip flops can no longer be denied, you get to choose which ones are relevant? I put it to you that a large part of the Bush campaign is " vote for Bush because he is firm and resolute". It is supposed to be an issue of character.......that he is unwavering. Not that he has never wavered on matters of national security, but that he never wavers period.

 

[DisMN]

I can't figure out why "flip flopping" is even an issue when CLEARLY both candidates have done their fare shares OF said flip flopping. (To your normal human being, it's more commonly called "changing your mind" LOL LOL)

People from both sides should look at what's being accomplished by accusing one side of doing it when their own side is just as guilty of it.

 

[Lebjwb]

Originally posted by Rokkitsci
...but I rarely spend time reading a known robotic recitation of silliness. When I see that list I always imagine the poster typing while humming = "if I only had a brain."

How's it go???...... blah blah blah

A robotic recitation..hmmmm like "It's hard work", "Mexed Missages" (oops sorry) "Mixed Messages", "Wrong war, wrong place, wrong time"

Bush got his backside handed to him.

Spin away boys and girls, spin away.

The Independents seem to think Kerry looked more credible whether or not the Neocons want to admit it on the DIS Boards or not, Bush has a problem.


One more "Bush League" showing by "W" in the next round and he'll have serious problems.

A third poor showing and he's done.

IMHO

 

[tidoublegger]

I am a registered independent voter and I wouldn't even dream of voting for Bush! This man speaks like a blithering idiot and his body language is hardly presidental material! I can't even fathom that he is our Commander in Chief! It's an embarrassment to our nation IMHO! Can you even imagine what people from other countries think when they see this man?

 

[Gupsmom]

I can't figure out why "flip flopping" is even an issue when CLEARLY both candidates have done their fare shares OF said flip flopping.

That was my point in posting the Bush flipflops (isn't that a kind of shoe?)

I'm not saying flip-flopping (still can't say it w/o chuckling) is inherently BAD. I'm just saying that Bush shouldn't be out saying OVER and OVER and OVER again that Kerry has flip flopped (smirk), when he has too.

My personal opinion is that it isn't bad to change your mind. It's worse to be stubborn when new facts come out that make your previous decision seem questionable. Besides Kerry didn't exactly flip flop anyway. He said he was for dealing with Suddam but not for the way it was handled. He agreed to a war IF all other options had been exhausted and IF we had support from the UN. Neither of those 2 points came to be.

Jess

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
You know, I understand why the president felt so annoyed. His handlers have made sure he has only appeared before partisan crowds with prescreened questions. That made for good clips on the 6 o'clock news, but left him ill prepared to deal with criticism.

I love this comment. You are so correct.

I am not for Bush but I do what him to be straight with us as he is our commander-in-chief.

It really does make me believe that Cheney & Rumsfeld are running the show.

I hope the next debate is better.

 

[Sonny Eclipse]

Originally posted by Gupsmom
Besides Kerry didn't exactly flip flop anyway. He said he was for dealing with Suddam but not for the way it was handled. He agreed to a war IF all other options had been exhausted and IF we had support from the UN. Neither of those 2 points came to be.

That's one of the things that has bothered me the most about the Republican spin machine. They are adamant to say Kerry has flip flopped on the war but if you actually listen to what the man has said he has stayed extremely consistent in his views. This is from the speech Kerry made from the Senate floor when he voted to give Bush authority for the use of force:

"In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days--to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.

If we do wind up going to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent--and I emphasize "imminent"--threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs."

That's exactly why he has criticized Bush on the war, because he didn't exhaust all other means before using force. If Bush truly understood the horrors of war, that war isn't some kind of game, then he would've done everything in his power to avoid this war with Iraq. By not allowing the inspectors to finish their job, and by not building a proper international coalition, he acted irresponsibly. And now, a year and a half later, not one WMD has been found and there are over 1000 Americans dead, more than 7500 Americans wounded, and more than 10,000 Iraqis dead.

For Bush to use his own ineptitude to show that Kerry is a flip flopper is disgusting.

 

[Geoff_M]

As for Bush's supposed "flip-flops", there's a key difference between this and Kerry's. It was said best here:

There's something about listening to Kerry that's reminiscent of an empty suit -- of someone reading what others told him to say, because it polled better. Kerry has the exact same expression and delivery and speaking style now speaking against the war as he did last year speaking in favor of it. Listen to him give an address on any issue -- it's far too easy to imagine his same words and gestures and cadences saying the opposite.

Luckilly with Kerry, on almost every issue, you can find a video recording of him saying the exact opposite, so maybe that's why.

With Bush, even his detractors sense genuine conviction, which I respect -- even on the issues I think he's flat-out 100% wrong on. When it comes to a leader, I guess I'd rather have someone I disagree with but who means it, over someone I agree with (this week) but only because a poll tells him to.

http://www.defeatjohnjohn.com/2004_09_19_archive.htm

Bush hasn't told one group that he doesn't own an SUV, and then shortly there after tell another group that he does.

As for Kerry's speech before voting on the Iraq resolution:

Consider Kerry on the president's mistake in going after Saddam Hussein before capturing Osama bin Laden. Or, as Kerry intoned, "We can't leave a failed Iraq. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake of judgment to go there and take the focus off Osama bin Laden." I reread Kerry's very long and also ponderous remarks before he voted in favor of the October 2002 resolution authorizing force in Iraq. Kerry never mentioned Osama bin Laden. (Is that the fault of Bush, too?)

And it's an odd omission considering the Kerry pose as international know- it-all, who ostensibly sees international affairs with a clarity sorely missing in Bush.

During the debate, Kerry observed that the first President Bush did not push U.S. troops beyond Basra. Said Kerry, as Bush pere "wrote in his book, because there was no viable exit strategy. And he said our troops would become occupiers in a bitterly hostile land. That's exactly where we find ourselves today."

So why did the world-savvy Kerry vote for the war resolution?

Thursday night, Kerry also likened going into Iraq in response to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks with "Franklin Roosevelt invading Mexico in response to Pearl Harbor. That's what we have here."

Then why did Kerry vote for the war resolution?

More Kerry: "Thirty-five to 40 countries in the world had a greater capability of making weapons at the moment the president invaded (Iraq) than Saddam Hussein."

Again: Why did Kerry vote for the war resolution?

Kerry's apologists say that the resolution did not authorize the war. Or that it only authorized U.S. force under certain conditions, such as moving against Iraq with the agreement of the United Nations. Not true. The resolution said, "The president is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate" (my italics) to defend U.S. interests and enforce the U.N. Security Council resolutions that Hussein was flouting.

What's more, Bush had warned the United Nations that it would be irrelevant if it failed to enforce its resolutions even as Kerry says he believed Bush would only go to war as a "last resort."

Kerry missed these important signposts -- and he wants to lead America?

Yes, Kerry looked presidential and spoke with a fluency on foreign policy issues, especially North Korea. To his credit, Kerry went out on a limb when he said that, if necessary, he was willing to send U.S. troops to Darfur to prevent another Rwanda.

But when Kerry attacked Bush on Iraq, he unwittingly crafted a grand argument against himself. Either Kerry voted for a war that, by his own lights, he should have seen as wrong, or if he knew it was wrong, he voted for it anyway.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/10/02/EDG8E92FVG1.DTL

 

[Sonny Eclipse]

Originally posted by Geoff_M
As for Kerry's speech before voting on the Iraq resolution:

There's a big difference between voting for a war done under the conditions Kerry stated in his speech vs. the conditions that led us into this war. It appears that Kerry's biggest mistake was putting too much trust in the President. What Kerry is currently saying about the war has nothing to do with his stance on Iraq before the war. If Bush would've gone through the proper channels before going to war a lot of the things we know about Iraq now might've been known before the war. Yea, now we know that "Thirty-five to 40 countries in the world had a greater capability of making weapons at the moment the president invaded (Iraq) than Saddam Hussein." and we might have known before the war also if Bush hadn't pulled out the inspectors and started a war before they were anywhere close to finishing their job. The fact that we now know that 40 countries had greater capability of making weapons than Iraq only shows how ridiculous this war really is.

 

[Gupsmom]

As for Bush's supposed "flip-flops", there's a key difference between this and Kerry's

'

Of course there is...The first guy is your candidate so it's OK. I understand that...but then stop with the flip-flop silliness. They both have flip flopped.

As for your other point. I guess I'd rather have a leader that can take new facts into account and adjust his view/strategy than a leader that just plows forward, with a sense of stubborness, and leads us further and further into the abyss.

Jess

 

[crazyforgoofy]

I stopped by just to post my favorite quote of the debate:

Don't forget Poland!

 

[Geoff_M]

Of course there is...The first guy is your candidate so it's OK. I understand that...but then stop with the flip-flop silliness. They both have flip flopped.

Sorry, but I think there's a fundemental difference in changing ones opinion over time (some of the Bush "flip-flops" took decades to transpire), saying one thing as a candidate and then discovering the realities of being President, and the change of our national mindset after 9/11... and Kerry's saying whatever he thinks the crowd wants to hear.

Don't forget Poland!

I'm sure the families of the Polish soldiers killed in Iraq will appreciate your remembering them.

 

[jrydberg]

Just to be clear... on Kerry's vote to authorize the President to go to war, he did exactly that. He did not vote to authorize war only if the UN approved or only if all other measures had been exhausted. He specifically voted to give the President the authority to go to war. It's that simple.

Personally, though I support the war, I think the first war set a dangerous precedent in having Congress cede it's power to declare war to the President. Congress should've told both GWB and his father, come ask us for a vote when you're ready for a declaration of war.

That aside, Kerry's vote is clear. Obviously he expected President Bush to take a different path, but that does not alter what he voted for.