Kerry and religion

[sharbear]

It seems that one of the reasons that President Bush won was on moral issues. I thought that the media and the campaigns did not really touch on this issue so it was a suprise to me. I live in Ohio and we saw a lot of Kerry and Bush. I don't remember ever hearing about the moral issues at all.

Mr. Kerry is a Catholic and a divorced one at that. Do you think that his religion had any part in his loss. I have read that religion played a big part when John Kennedy ran but I did not hear much about Mr. Kerry's religion and it playing a part.

Do you think that there are people who would not vote for a Catholic. That Mr. Kerry being Catholic played a part in his loss. Or is it more on his views on gay marriage and abortion. Things that he is for but are againist the teaching of the Catholic Church. I think that maybe Mr. Kerry alienated both the religious right and religious Catholic.

 

[monkeyboy]

Kerry had an annulment on his 1st marriage, so in the eye of the church it never happened

Bush has many Catholic in his family (Jeb for one)

 

[septbride2002]

I think more religions liked the Bush campaign better due to Pro-Life issues.

~Amanda

 

[denisenh]

Originally posted by sharbear
That Mr. Kerry being Catholic played a part in his loss. Or is it more on his views on gay marriage and abortion. Things that he is for but are againist the teaching of the Catholic Church. I think that maybe Mr. Kerry alienated both the religious right and religious Catholic.

I believe that my understanding of Kerry is correct.
From what I understand, Kerry is not willing to impose his own personal beliefs on ALL Americans. He will not decide what is best for ALL women, etc.

 

[Christine]

Well, I know at least one of our local Catholic churches told everyone in Mass on the Sunday before the election to "get out and vote, and vote for your favorite Republican."

Yes, I think Kerry's religious stance probably alienated the less moderate religious folks. Many Catholics feel that you cannot be a proper Catholic if you allow abortion to continue (or birth control for that matter). So the Catholics that do take a hard line with their beliefs likely voted against him.

I don't believe that people voted against him because he was Catholic.

 

[Geoff_M]

I believe that my understanding of Kerry is correct.
From what I understand, Kerry is not willing to impose his own personal beliefs on ALL Americans. He will not decide what is best for ALL women, etc.

Red Herring Alert: use of the word "impose". Our legislative and judicial systems allow a President to "impose" very little upon you, or anyone else for that matter.

 

[denisenh]

Originally posted by Geoff_M
Red Herring Alert: use of the word "impose". Our legislative and judicial systems allow a President to "impose" very little upon you, or anyone else for that matter.

OK, impose is a poor choice of words. From the 3rd (I think) presidential debate

SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, a new question for you.

The New York Times reports that some Catholic archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research.

What is your reaction to that?

KERRY: I respect their views. I completely respect their views. I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many.

I believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith.

 

[helenabear]

Originally posted by Christine
Many Catholics feel that you cannot be a proper Catholic if you allow abortion to continue (or birth control for that matter). So the Catholics that do take a hard line with their beliefs likely voted against him.

Interesting thought... that isn't true of most Catholics I know however. Most of the ones I know vote Democratic. Even my very strict Catholic mother did 99% of the time. This year was odd because some of the clergy tried to make others feel bad for voting against abortion. Normally it is a non-issue and I can tell you around here, more were voting for Kerry than Bush. Truthfully in the past, historically Catholics are more liberal politcally... this year was an odd shift.

Also based on some of the people I know... some would not vote for Kerry because he is Catholic. I don't think (or hope) that is true of most, but for some it is an issue.

 

[Patch'sD]

Annulement in the Catholic Church = Big Bucks

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by helenabear
Interesting thought... that isn't true of most Catholics I know however. Most of the ones I know vote Democratic. Even my very strict Catholic mother did 99% of the time. This year was odd because some of the clergy tried to make others feel bad for voting against abortion. Normally it is a non-issue and I can tell you around here, more were voting for Kerry than Bush. Truthfully in the past, historically Catholics are more liberal politcally... this year was an odd shift.

Also based on some of the people I know... some would not vote for Kerry because he is Catholic. I don't think (or hope) that is true of most, but for some it is an issue.

Yep, most Catholics I know do not follow the typical Catholic teaching. I'm not saying "all" Catholics, but of the ones I associate with, they all use birth control, all would take their daughters to get abortions if necessary, and pretty much go against most the things the church tells them not to do. When my best friend (who is Republican but was entirely on the fence) heard the priest tell her to vote Republican, she made up her mind in that instant. I am not Catholic but my kids attend Catholic school. They were so "preached to" by the school prior to elections that mostly all the kids were Republicans. My kids were ashamed that their parents were voting for Kerry. My daughter told me that John Kerry was an evil man and a killer. This she learned in the schoolyard.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

The fact that Senator Kerry is Catholic was not an issue in this election. What were the issues for the evangelical right (which I guess is what we are discussing here) were his pro-choice stance and his pro-stem cell research stance. Some may have figured in the same sex marriage thing, but Senator Kerry really did not make it much of an issue, so I don't believe that played a large role.

I also wanted to add that I think the democrats place too many people into the evangelical right, there really aren't that many true evangelicals that are so radical in their beliefs. If you look at the votes against same sex marriage, those were not all evangelical votes.

 

[helenabear]

Originally posted by Patch'sD
Annulement in the Catholic Church = Big Bucks

Would you like to explain what you mean by that? I currently have a good friend going through an annulment via the Church and I know for a fact big bucks are NOT involved!

Christine, I understand what you are saying. I was just giving from my point of view (as a Catholic) that what went on in your child's school and the area is not what is concidered "Catholic norm" in politics. Not sure why for the first time ever, the Church started preaching to others the way they did. Around here though, the Catholic Democrat is still definitely in the majority.

FWIW, I am not a Democrat, so honestly I am not biased towards one or the other... just saying what normally does happen I am truly baffled this year by what the clergy did and how those few tried to guilt others into voting one way or the other.

 

[Geoff_M]

denisenh,

It's perfectly possible and acceptable to legislate "morality"... but it has to be done within the boundries of the legal system. The abolishment of slavery started out as an "article of faith" in this nation and then was incorporated into our legal system. The debate is over which issues of morality should, or shouldn't be, legislated. But it's improper to say that because something is a "belief" than it's off-limits in terms of the legal process.

Presidents can't make people believe things or impose their beliefs by fiat. They can nominate judges that they think will carry out their will, but those judges are not beholden to any view. Many justices are appointed, only to later dissapoint the people that but them on the bench. Ask conservatives about David Souter for example.

 

[Patch'sD]

From AmericanCatholic.org

Is money involved in the annulment process?

No and yes. Money does not affect the speed of the procedure or its successful completion. Nor does the inability of a petitioner to share part of the costs of the process interfere with the possibility of obtaining an annulment. Diocesan tribunals make special arrangements for people.

There are obviously extensive costs involved in maintaining an agency for annulment procedures. The annual budget of our tribunal exceeds $150,000 and covers items like rental space, salaries, office equipment and supplies. Income from annulment fees covers most but not all of these expenses.

There is a certain value, too, in the petitioners sharing part of this procedure’s cost. Similarly, it’s considered good practice to expect counseling clients to pay for counseling, or to expect college students to work for some portion of their financial aid. Paying something can help one develop a personal commitment to the process.

 

[want2retire]

"Anullment in the Catholic church=big bucks"

In my experience, this was not true.

 

[Laurajean1014]

Kerry could have stood on his head and he would not have made the difference.

I believe the people who voted for Kerry, was in protest of BUSH.

I believe the people who voted for Bush, were in favor of BUSH.

Also, the Kerry campaign was a mess. Kerry is not organized nor is he confident (cocky, maybe). He makes too many changes in his decision making (again, would rather move with the tide than stand on his beliefs) and did not express his beliefs well. (I'm still trying to figure out what he was about !!!).

Teresa was not an asset. No-one, not even the liberal media liked her. She tried too hard to fight him and make herself the center of attention (like Nancy Reagan). The big thing that Teresa lacked, was; she is not admired by the public, does not have the credability, grace and respect needed to be at the center. McCullough stopped her from campaigning with Kerry because of this.

Also, Kerry and McCullough were lost. The Republicans were ready for anything and the Dems did not come out.

You will be reading much about the demise of Kerry and the pitfalls of his campaign in the next weeks to come.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Originally posted by helenabear
Would you like to explain what you mean by that? I currently have a good friend going through an annulment via the Church and I know for a fact big bucks are NOT involved!

Depends on the church. My neighbor is now a Lutheran because her parish wanted $8,000 to secure her annulment. So she change faiths.

 

[herc]

Originally posted by sharbear


Do you think that there are people who would not vote for a Catholic. That Mr. Kerry being Catholic played a part in his loss. Or is it more on his views on gay marriage and abortion. Things that he is for but are againist the teaching of the Catholic Church. I think that maybe Mr. Kerry alienated both the religious right and religious Catholic.

I am Catholic and didn't vote for him. I don't personally know any Catholics who did.

 

[denisenh]

Originally posted by Laurajean1014
Kerry could have stood on his head and he would not have made the difference.
I believe the people who voted for Kerry, was in protest of BUSH.
I believe the people who voted for Bush, were in favor of BUSH.

I voted for Kerry because I agree with him on the issues that matter to me.

The same reason I voted for Al Gore.

Edited to get rid of comment

 

[TeresaNJ]

deniseh, thank you for editing your post to get rid of your comment. I was just getting ready to quote you on it and add what I thought of what you said.