Kerry and Bush supporters. A question for y'all.

Originally posted by Saffron
Bingo!

Page two of the Dick Cavett interview that somehow didn't make it to this thread! :confused: This was the part of the interview after O'Neil accused Kerry of trying to speak for all 2.2 million vets who had fought in the war up to the date of the interview. And funny, O'Neil called him a liar, even though O'Neil could read his words! Funny how that happens! :confused3 Like some other hard headed people, he just wouldn't hear Kerry say he was speaking for the soldiers he interviewed and the VVAW. *sigh* I can post that argument, but it looks like a CB agrument :p, so let me just skip it right now and go to this part. Since people are questioning why Kerry didn't report what he felt were atrocities or war crimes.



And there you have it. :)

The interview didn't make through on the quote, it's back a couple of pages, but what we have is a Naval officer admitting to committing war crimes, admitting to violating the UCMJ, as well as the Geneva Convention. Why was he not tried?

If a mutiny was actually happening, why were those troops not tried? Why didn't he bring this out when he was protesting in the 60's?

Saffron, on an even earlier post you say Kerry didn't admit to war crimes. Yes, he did. As an officer in the Navy, if he is ordered to commit a crime, if he is ordered to violate the Geneva Convention, he is still guilty of the crime. The "I was ordered to" was tried at Nuremburg and is not a valid defense. According to his own statements, he is a war criminal.

To the point of the topic, however, I don't think it will change many people's minds. I don't like Kerry because I don't trust him - for various reasons. He seems too shady, too slick. I'm not voting for Bush because I think he is a great candidate, but I think he is better than Kerry. If something came out really bad against either Bush, I'm not sure I would believe it. I've heard too many things that were logically incorrect attributed to the President by the left to believe anything they might bring out now.

Getting back to the SBV ad, a thought keeps going back and forth in my mind. There are 2 movies that came out this year with probably close to the same amount of lies in them, one from the far right and one from the far left. One is being sued by the subject to keep it from even being shown anywhere, and the other will probably win the Academy Award for best documentary. Why doesn't anyone debate that? Where was the outrage when the movie from the far left came out?
 
Can someone help Willy and I out on this maybe? Did any of you read the second page of the Dick Cavett interview where O'Neil says,

... I'd like to continue with my statement, if I may. No, we never – I never – I never burned a village, that's absolutely correct. On those particular raids, as you know, from the time you came into the Ku Alon River to the time you left the Bodie, you're receiving almost continuous fire the entire time ...

We're trying to see if this is the area where Kerry received his Bronze Star for helping out that man that was thrown over board and other things he did in that one particular battle. :confused:

Does anyone know where we could find this information. We can't find the rivers or the province listed in both Kerry's and Thurlow's citations, or the rivers mentioned by O'Neil on any maps of Vietnam. :P

Could O'Neil be blowing Thurlow's story out of the water with the "from the time you came into the Ku Alon River to the time you left the Bodie, you're receiving almost coninuous fire the entire time." line! :eek: :earseek: :eek:

Help! :hyper: Please. :)
 
Originally posted by peachgirl
Do you think that filing a complaint with the FEC is an attempt to surpress free speech?

Just curious, as I don't quite understand that idea.

No, I meant that as two separate things.

1. It's been reported in the press that the Kerry campaign has filed a complaint with the FEC.

The Kerry campaign filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission that alleged the group behind the ad was illegally coordinating its efforts with the Bush-Cheney campaign. It cited "recent press reports" and the group's own statements.

2. It's also been reported in the press that the Kerry campaign has called on the publisher to pull the book from bookstores, which looks like an attempt to supress free speech to me.
 
2. It's also been reported in the press that the Kerry campaign has called on the publisher to pull the book from bookstores, which looks like an attempt to supress free speech to me.

You know, this was originally reported by DRUDGE as an attempt at book banning...a story they quickly withdrew.

Let's be loigical. Do you seriously think Kerry just told them to pull the book because it is unflattering, and expected to gt anywhere? Or do you think perhaps Kerry's lawyers have advised the publishers that the book contains provable lies, and if published, they will be open to lawsuits? Certainly not the first time that has happened. And no one ever called it suppression of free speech before.
 

James:

In the Dick Cavett interview it looks like to me he admitted to firing in free fire zones. Is that a war crime? I honestly don't know, but according to the Geneva Convention, setting up one is. He never set the free zone up, the US military did that, but maybe firing in one is a crime too. Is ignorance of the laws of war different than ignorance of the law at home, it seems to me it is (just my opinion, nothing factual to base that on). :confused3 I don't condemn any of the men that fought honorably over there, even if they were unknowingly breaking the "rules of war". I know I sure as heck, if I was a drafted person with no desire to be in Vietnam, wouldn't know the rules! I'd just be worried about making it home safely and doing what my country asked me to do, by orders of my commanding officers and trusting that they weren't breaking any rules!

And why didn't he bring this all out in the 60's when he protested? This is exactly what he did. During his testimony to Congress and in the Dick Cavett and other interviews and protests.

Why wasn't he tried? I don't know. I guess because if he was, thousands of others would have had to have been, including commanding officers up the chain, right into the US government. As Kerry said, some are vocal about their service in Vietnam and tell all, some tell a little, some tell nothing. Just because thousands have said they have, and thousands haven't said they have, doesn't mean that 10's or 100's of thousands didn't do the same thing ... knowingly or unknowingly.

I honestly can't answer those questions, except the protest one. :p
 
Apparenly asking to have a book withdrawn because it contains lies is more common than I thought



Flashback: In 1999, media virtually ignored anti-Bush book -- except to report on author's credibility

Fortunate Son was pulled by publisher after Bush legal threats



In light of the relentless media coverage of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth [sic] and their thinly sourced, consistently contradicted-by-official-documents attacks on Senator John Kerry (D-MA) -- most notably in the new book Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry -- it's worth revisiting how the media covered another controversial book with a controversial author.

In 1999, St. Martin's Press published a book by author James H. Hatfield called Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President. The book, which contained allegations that then-candidate George W. Bush had used cocaine in the 1970s, received barely any media coverage -- until Hatfield's own past came into question, at which point Hatfield, not the allegations in his book, became the media's primary discussion topic during the story's short life.

Fortunate Son, like Unfit for Command, contained false and unverifiable claims about a presidential candidate. Fortunate Son's author, like Unfit for Command's co-authors John E. O'Neill and Jerome R. Corsi, had serious credibility problems.

While the media virtually ignored Fortunate Son (other than to condemn the book and its author), the Bush campaign was quick to threaten legal action, and many in the media suggested the press had a responsibility to either ignore the book altogether or to debunk its claims. When St. Martin's eventually suspended publication and recalled the book, the Bush campaign lauded the decision as "the right thing to do."

In stark contrast with the treatment given Fortunate Son, the media is heavily covering Swift Boat Vets' allegations. New polling by the University of Pennsylvania's National Annenberg Election Survey found that more than half of the country has "heard about or seen" the Swift Boat Vets TV ad. "The influence of this ad is a function not of paid exposure but of the ad's treatment in free media," Kathleen Hall Jamieson, director of the survey and of the Annenberg Public Policy Center, explained. "The advertisement has received extensive coverage, particularly on conservative talk radio and cable news channels and has been the subject of some attention in broadcast news as well."

Media ignored Fortunate Son before allegations about Hatfield's past emerged, then focused on Hatfield (not on Bush); media and publishers denounced book

On October 22, 1999, Washington Post media critic Howard Kurtz wrote of media coverage of Fortunate Son:

Most major newspapers initially ignored the Hatfield book, although the New York Post and Washington Times ran brief stories about it. On Wednesday, the Boston Globe, Washington Post, Houston Chronicle, Atlanta Constitution and Associated Press, among others, ran articles or items about the book after former president George Bush issued a statement denouncing the charges as "mindless garbage" and a "vicious lie." He denied ever intervening with a judge on the younger Bush's behalf, saying Hatfield "has insulted our son's character and my character and I resent it."

Stephen Hess, a presidential scholar at the Brookings Institution, criticized the handling of the story. "The problem is that mainstream, distinguished publishers aren't checking these things," he said. "They aren't in the business of fact-checking." As for newspapers, "you wind up publishing a story because someone denies it, which strikes me as a pretty shabby ethic."

Also on October 22, 1999, The New York Times noted that it had been aware of the allegations -- but the paper chose not to publish the allegations, because it couldn't corroborate them:

Reporters for The New York Times, which received an advance copy of Mr. Hatfield's book last week, spent several days looking for evidence that might corroborate his account. But they did not find any, and the newspaper did not publish anything about the claim.

It wasn't just major newspapers that ignored Fortunate Son (at least until Hatfield's background became a story). The broadcast and cable news networks almost completely ignored the book. A Nexis search yields only one result for "Fortunate Son" before Hatfield's background emerged: Geraldo Rivera mentioned it on CNBC's Rivera Live on October 19, 1999 -- and quoted both Bushes denouncing the book.

The first time Fortunate Son was mentioned on CNN was during the October 22, 1999, edition of Inside Politics, during which CNN's Reliable Sources host, Howard Kurtz, said:

[T]he book's thinly supported allegation of a cocaine arrest in Bush's past has been trumped by an even bigger story about the book's author. ... That lack of substantiation, plus a total denial from the Bush camp, led most news organizations to decide against running the story. But it was all over the Internet -- on "The Drudge Report" and in Salon magazine. Salon says the Internet's role is to put out controversial information and let readers make up their own minds.

Likewise, the first mention of Fortunate Son on FOX News Channel focused on Hatfield and involved roundtable participants suggesting the media should ignore the book. On the October 21, 1999, edition of FOX Special Report With Brit Hume, Hume led off the discussion by saying:

I can't resist starting with this sort of delicious story about the author, J.H. Hatfield, who wrote this book about George W. Bush called Fortunate Son, which alleged that there'd been this drug bust in his past that he had covered up with a little help from his father. And of course, it now turns out that this chap, J.H. Hatfield, is the same J.H. Hatfield who did a stretch in the big house for -- for -- for trying to hire somebody to kill his boss.

Bill Sammon of The Washington Times responded to Hume by criticizing the "thinly sourced" allegations:

If this guy is truly the person who did some time and is lying about it, how are we supposed to possibly believe this thinly sourced story that George Bush did time? I mean, it just -- it -- it -- I think it's a lesson in post-Monica [Lewinsky] rules of journalism. We're all running with this thing, and it was thinly sourced to begin with. Now we're all running around ... probably looking at the publisher for letting him get -- get this thing through. But I think the newspapers have some responsibility here, too, for repeating it.

Hume suggested the question for the media was whether to debunk the allegations or ignore them entirely:

t raises the question of whether something like this gets out there, whether it's better to address it and, as has happened in the case here, I think, pretty firmly knock it down, or -- or whether to let it -- or whether to ignore it and let it fester.

Roundtable participant Mara Liasson of National Public Radio chimed in to suggest that the allegations should have been ignored:

Well, you know, or ignore it because, you know, a lot of ways that these things get legs is when they're repeated in the mainstream media. ... Repeated -- repeated and discussed and sometimes shot down, but it gets into the bloodstream.

And Roll Call's Morton M. Kondracke concluded that the "obligation" of the media is to check the story out before reporting it:

You know, now, the -- it seems to me that the obligation of a -- of a news medium, a major news medium, is not to repeat the story but to check it out first and then, if it's gaining some currency on the fringes -- you know, on the Internet or something like that or gossip or if it's in the air -- then jump in and say, "Hey, we've proved that this story is not -- is not true," rather than, you know, recycling it or ... or repeating it ... because it's -- it's in the air.

Meanwhile, publications such as The New York Observer, Salon.com, and Slate.com printed articles critical of the book and of Hatfield's credibility. Slate.com editor Jacob Weisberg wrote, "Should we believe this story? I don't think so. ... Anyone with a nose for cooked quotes should be able to detect the distinct odor of journalistic jambalaya coming from Hatfield's book."

The New York Observer, noting that the "stench" of Fortunate Son is "sure to have a reach," quoted Simon & Schuster publisher David Rosenthal: "This sort of thing is not good for newspapers, publishers, books. ... Over many years, I've edited Hunter S. Thompson, whose motto has long been, If you call somebody a pigf*****, you damn well better be able to produce the pig." [asterisks inserted by MMFA]

Bush campaign denied allegations in book; suggested lawsuit; praised decision to pull book

George W. Bush, his father, and his campaign surrogates criticized the book as "mindless garbage" and "science fiction":

George W. Bush said, "It's totally ridiculous. ... It's not true ... and I would hope responsible journalists ... would not respond to science fiction." [Boston Herald, 10/20/99 (ellipsis in original)]

George H.W. Bush called the book "mindless garbage." According to The Washington Post, "'The report is a vicious lie,' the former president said in a statement. He said it was just such 'nasty, groundless' attacks that dissuade many good people from entering politics. ... [T]he former president said ... 'The author can stand by his anonymous sources all he wants, but they are not telling the truth. He has insulted our son's character and my character and I resent it.' The senior Bush said he was proud that his son 'is willing and is strong enough to take the heat, even in the face of this kind of mindless garbage.'" [10/20/99]

Bush campaign spokesperson Mindy Tucker said, "This guy should have stuck with writing science fiction. ... He's obviously trying to sell books with something absolutely untrue." [Salon.com, 10/18/99]

The Bush camp didn't merely denounce the book; it suggested that a lawsuit or other effort to stop the book might be forthcoming. The New York Post reported on October 23, 1999:

George W. Bush is mulling legal action against the discredited author and the publisher of a controversial new book that claims the GOP front-runner was busted on cocaine charges and used political connections to have the record expunged.

"Attorneys are looking into the matter," said Scott McClellan, a campaign spokesman for Bush.

"They should recall it [the book] immediately, and they should be ashamed they published it in the first place."

On October 23, 1999, the Associated Press also reported that the Bush camp was considering legal action -- not because of the content of the book but because of the author's background:

The unauthorized biographer of GOP presidential front-runner George W. Bush was hoping for a best seller. He may end up with a libel lawsuit. His publisher already has recalled the book and suspended further sales, shipment and promotion. ... By Friday afternoon, publisher St. Martin's Press had recalled all 70,000 copies of the book -- "Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President" -- from stores nationwide. The revelation [about Hatfield's past], first reported in The Dallas Morning News, had the Bush campaign's legal staff reviewing the work for possible libel implications.

"It's obvious (the book) was not checked," Bush spokeswoman Karen Hughes said Friday. Bush had previously denounced the book as "science fiction."

According to an article in the Houston Chronicle on October 23, 1999, the Bush campaign's lawsuit threats were successful:

The publisher of a controversial and inaccurate biography of Gov. George W. Bush recalled the 70,000 copies that had been sent to wholesalers and bookstores. The recall was made after St. Martin's Press, worried that Bush might sue, confirmed that the author had served a prison sentence for attempted murder.

[...]

Bush, campaigning in New Hampshire, said St. Martin's Press should recall the book. "Unfortunately, there are some people in the political process who think it is OK to make stuff up," he said. "Most people aren't going to buy all this garbage and rumors."

In light of the criticism of the book's accuracy and the author's credibility, St. Martin's suspended publication of Fortunate Son and recalled copies already printed. In the October 22, 1999, edition of The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Sally Richardson of St. Martin's explained, "Since Mr. Hatfield's credibility has been called into serious question, we feel compelled to suspend publication." In December 1999, Texas Monthly reported, "St. Martin's Press recalled the book on October 21 amid questions about Hatfield's credibility and the elder George Bush's threat of a lawsuit."

Bush's campaign aides applauded the decision to pull the book: "We think it was a responsible decision and the right thing to do," Tucker was quoted in the October 22, 1999, edition of The Dallas Morning News. The same day, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution quoted Bush campaign spokesperson (and current White House press secretary) McClellan also saying that pulling the book was "the right thing to do."
 
Wow, it's like banging one's head against a wall!

I've said repeatedly that we need to find out whether the Swiftvets are lying or not. The mainstream press, until yesterday, has totally ignored this story. And the basis for their article today was to investigate the Swiftvets ties to the Bush campaign, not acertain the truth of the claims.

Also on October 22, 1999, The New York Times noted that it had been aware of the allegations -- but the paper chose not to publish the allegations, because it couldn't corroborate them:

Reporters for The New York Times, which received an advance copy of Mr. Hatfield's book last week, spent several days looking for evidence that might corroborate his account. But they did not find any, and the newspaper did not publish anything about the claim.

They spent several days looking for evidence that might corroberate the account. I bet they actually spent even more than that! They haven't spent 2 minutes trying to get to the truth on the Swiftvets book.
 
Some info on O'Neal's co-author. .


As I have said before, this whole thing with the Swift Boat Vets is a Karl Rove special and has been carried out hand-in-hand with the Freepers. .

I found more proof of this on the Free Republic site itself and it concerns O'Neal's co-author, Jerome Corsi.


Not only does Mr. Corsi co-author the book with O'Neal, his writing talents can also be seen on. .

The Free Republic (Freeper) site itself. .

He posts there under the screen name "jrlc". . here's a link to the post in which he admits it. . . link

You might notice some interesting topics above and below the post. . a nice intro to those who don't know who the "Freeps" are. .

Here is a link to a list of all Corsi's posts on "Free Republic". . link

And here are some choice quotes from this proud Amercian author is helping O'Neal get the "truth" out. .


On Catholics and the Pope

CORSI: Maybe while he's there he can tell the UN what he's going to do about the sexual crimes committed by "priests" in his "Church" during his tenure. Or, maybe that's the connection -- boy buggering in both Islam and Catholicism is okay with the Pope as long as it isn't reported by the liberal press. (03/03/2003)

CORSI: So this is what the last days of the Catholic Church are going to look like. Buggering boys undermines the moral base and the laywers rip the gold off the Vatican altars. We may get one more Pope, when this senile one dies, but that's probably about it. (12/16/2002)

On Islam and Arabs

CORSI: Let's see exactly why it isn't the case that Islam is a worthless, dangerous Satanic religion? Where's the proof to the contrary? (04/24/2004)

CORSI: Islam is like a virus -- it affects the mind -- maybe even better as an analogy -- it is a cancer that destroys the body it infects... No doctor would hesitate to eliminate cancer cells from the body. (11/26/02)

CORSI: Islam is a peaceful religion as long as the women are beaten, the boys buggered, and the infidels killed. (11/22/2002)

CORSI: How's this as an analogy -- the Koran is simply the "software" for producing deviant cancer cell political behavior and violence in human beings. (02/15/2002)

CORSI: Think the liberal press will ever let out that these 2 were lovers -- typical Islamic boy-buggering -- older man, younger man -- black Muslims? I doubt it. Not a pretty picture, but one certain to be hidden by PC media. (11/08/2002)

CORSI: Isn't the Democratic Party the official SODOMIZER PROTECTION ASSOCIATION of AMERICA -- oh, I forgot, it was just an accident that Clintoon's first act in office was to promote "gays in the military." RAGHEADS are Boy-Bumpers as clearly as they are Women-Haters -- it all goes together. (11/18/2001)

On Senator John Kerry

CORSI: First let's undermine the US in Vietnam. Then we can go for gay marriage. When you get to be Pres. JFK-lite, there will be no end to how much of America we can destroy. (05/17/2004)

CORSI: Just don't let anybody put a tablet with the Ten Commandments in front of the school where that girl wants to wear a Muslim scarf -- OH, No --- then the RATS would complain. Anti-Christian, Anti-American -- just like their Presidential Candidate -- Jean Francois Kerrie. (03/31/2004)

CORSI: After he married TerRAHsa, didn't John Kerry begin practicing Judiasm? He also has paternal gradparents that were Jewish. What religion is John Kerry? (03/04/2004)

CORSI: Kerry has a long history of Communist supporters. (03/12/2004)

CORSI: Kerry offers a clear choice. Anti-American hatred. (02/08/2004)

CORSI: John F*ing Commie Kerry and Commie Ted [Kennedy] discuss their plan to hand America over to our nation's enemies. (02/04/2004)

On former President Bill Clinton

CORSI: When is this guy going to admit he's simply an anti-American communist? Won't he and his leftist wife simply go away???? Enough already. (02/24/2002)

CORSI: Hey, Bill, didn't you steal enough when you had the chance? (02/15/2002)

CORSI: Clinton doesn't get it. Afganistan, and other Moslim countries, are not poor because they lack money. The culture itself is anti-modern. But then, maybe Slick did get it and he just wants to create another bork barrel from which he and his wife can draw slop. (02/15/2002)

CORSI: Clinton was more interested in gays in the military than going after OBL. Clinton had Janet Rhino pushing the FBI to deport a child to Castro's nondemocratic Cuba, not searching out OBL sleepers in the USA. Clinton was too busy getting BJs in the Oval Office to do more than Wag the Dog after the Cole was hit. (05/16/2002)

On Senator Hillary Clinton

CORSI: HELL-ary loves the Arabs so much (kiss, kiss Mrs. Arab*RAT) -- wonder how she would look in a Burkha? (05/21/2002)

CORSI: Mullah Ali'Gore-ah is very proud of his new Bin Laden beard and he hopes others in the Democratic Party will follow his lead. Hell-ary is disappointed she cannot grow a beard, but her press secretary reminds us she can still enroll in flight school. (01/07/02)

CORSI: Let the FAT HOG run!!! [regarding a possible presidential bid] (08/30/2003)

CORSI: Hellary should resign and go away. What ever happened to the people she ran over with her car at Westchester Airport? Can't anybody sue this b*tch? (11/17/2002)

CORSI: Anybody ask why HELLary couldn't keep BJ Bill satisfied? Not lesbo or anything, is she? (06/08/2003)

On Chelsea Clinton

CORSI: According to Talk Magazine, Chubby Chelsea had a very great adventure on 9/11 in NYC and Hell-ary had the details wrong -- oh, it was terrible. (12/07/2001)

CORSI: Did the Journalist see Chubbie Chelsea among the wives. Little Katie Communist [Katie Couric] on the NBC Today show interviewed Hillary this morning and mom is worried sick about Chelsea. She was last seen in Kandahar at a Starbucks. But now, as Little Katie Communist sighed, "Who Knows?" Even British disinformation planted reports such as this grocery crap will be useful. Anyone with information about Chubbie Chelsea's whereabouts should post it now. Mom wants to know her daughter is out of harms way. Mom also wants to be at the center of the story. (11/29/2001)

CORSI: But the real question is: WHERE IS CHUBBIE CHELSEA? Is she in Kabul in danger, looking for a Starbucks? Waldo wants to know. Please, Little Katie Communist, HELP US FIND CHELSEA. THE SITUATION MAY BE URGENT. (11/29/2001)

CORSI: HILLARY SAYS CHELSEA IS MISSING AND JANET RHINO DOESN'T KNOW WHERE SHE IS? (11/28/2001)

On former Vice President Al Gore

CORSI: Gore isn't available for television. He is growing his regulation length Bin Laden beard. Mullah Ali'Gore-ah, as he now wishes to be called, is focused on his new career as a pilot. "Want to fly like bird," he says after his stint as a professor at Columbia. "No need to learn take-off or landing, just soar like bird and look at buildings." As to Florida, Mulllah Gore-ah says, "No big buildings," dismissing the importance of the state to his future plans." (12/15/2001)

On the Media

CORSI: Time to FREEP Chris Matthews of MSNBC. MSNBC is beginning to stand for "More Sh*t, Nothing But Communism." (05/16/2002)

CORSI: I didn't realize Little Katie Communist of the NBC Today Show knew how to hack a website. Finally something impressive from the little wimp. [responding to news that USA Today's website had been hacked and that the hackers were mocking President George W. Bush's Christianity] (07/12/2002)

CORSI: COMMUNISM -- it's simple NBC = NOTHING BUT COMMUNISM. (04/19/2004)

CORSI: Susan Estrogen -- even the voice grates. But then with supporters like her and Ted Kennedy, who needs enemies. Let Susan BLAH BLAH screatch -- only Chrissy Matthews whines better. (04/13/2004)

Assorted

CORSI: Perfect Liberal -- lesbian, self-absorbed, hates America, anxious to impose her values on everybody else. [on Martina Navratilova] (06/26/2002)

CORSI: And now we get Pooh-LEFTY pushed on us by the RATS as Minority Leader in the House -- here come the SanFrancisco liberals -- hope the RATS go back to focusing the debate on gay marriages and other pro-choice topics close to Pelosi's heart. (11/18/2002)

CORSI: Too bad the plane didn't crash into the TV set of the NBC show "THE LEFT WING" -- especially when Martin Sheen was "acting." (06/07/2003)




Hmmm. . well I think he definitely shows some kind of truth there. .


And gives a wonderful example of the kind of person the Right-wing talk show show pimps worship and look to for inspiration. .






:rolleyes:
 
Has anyone seen the new Swiftvets ad?

I haven't been able to listen to the whole thing (my speakers on my computer don't work any more) but I have seen clips of it on the news.

Is there anything in it that the Kerry campaign can call a lie? It seems to be a collection of clips from Kerry's senate testimony and then comments from vets and POW's about how that testimony affected them.

I have a hard time seeing how the Kerry campaign can effectively counteract that. Pointing to the contrast of Bush's National Guard service is a non-starter. That story's been around since before the 2000 campaign. Everyone's heard about it, and already formed their opinions of Bush, pro and con, based on that story. But Senator Kerry's record is just now becoming known to many voters. How many of them actually know the details about Kerry's anti-war activities?

It's going to be a very interesting couple of weeks, that's for sure.

And does anyone still think the McCain-Fiengold law was a good idea?
 
Will, when you can't effectively counteract the message, go after the messenger, huh?
 
Originally posted by bsnyder
Will, when you can't effectively counteract the message, go after the messenger, huh?


You mean like the Bush book that " received barely any media coverage -- until Hatfield's own past came into question, at which point Hatfield, not the allegations in his book, became the media's primary discussion topic during the story's short life."

Really ! It's hard not to "go after" this excuse for a human being when he makes himself such a target.
 
Oh, and here's a little info on O'Neal:

"SBVT’s public leader is John E. O’Neill, a longtime GOP operative but he’s been in the middle of these things before. Back in 1971, O’Neill claimed to have formed a group called Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace, a bunch of pro-war veterans sent out to counter the antiwar activities of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, led by one John F. Kerry.

But, like SBVT, Vietnam Veterans for Just Peace was a shill, a creation of President Richard M. Nixon’s chief counsel (and hatchet man) Charles Colson.

"We found a vet named John O'Neill and formed a group called Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace. We had O'Neill meet the President, and we did everything we could do to boost his group," Colson admitted to reporter Joe Klein in a January 5 interview published in The New Yorker magazine.

O’Neill is a documented liar. He tells interviewers that he is “neither a Democrat nor a Republican,” but Federal Election Commission records show he contributes only to Republican candidates. He claims he has never been active politically, but newspaper articles in his hometown of Houston, Texas carry numerous accounts of his political activities on behalf of the Republican Party.

He claims SBVT has raised $450,000 “mainly from small contributors” but the IRS filings of the group show at least $300,000 has come from two Texas millionaires with strong ties to President Bush.

O’Neill co-authored the anti-Kerry diatribe called Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry, with Harvard PhD Jerome Corsi, a virulent, anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, homophobic right-wing author who posts venom-filled attacks on conservative bulletin boards, calling Kerry “John ****ing Commie Kerry” and Senator Hillary Clinton a “fat hog.”"


Article
Capital Hill Blues



You know, most Republicans are decent Americans who want only the best for their country. . but Karl Rove is a monster and the people Bush has chosen to help him stay in power are hate-mongering slime. .

I would hope every American stands up and denounces this kind of gutter politics. .
 
Really makes one wonder why, when Nixon was after Kerry, no one suggested his medals were undeserved doesn't it? We have speculated that these SBVs are angry with Kerry for his anti war activities. But if this is true, why did they not come forward back then and complain about his medals? I think you are right Willy...the missing ingredient was not there yet. Rove.
 
Bet,

When the message comes from messengers like these, isn't that a reasonable part of deciding whether they have any credibility?


Don't you want to know what kind of people Rush is telling you to trust?
 
Is there anything in it that the Kerry campaign can call a lie?

I've heard it and it's extremely misleading. They start out with short quotes from Kerry's congressional testimony. The first one is this:

They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads. . .”

And then they go on to list several incidences that you can read in the actual testimony below.

The problem is, they pretend that Kerry is saying this as though it's him accusing them and it's not. Had they bothered to include the 6 little words that come before all those snippets, it changes the entire meaning...which of course is why they didn't.

The actual testimony was this:


They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads........

THEY TOLD THE STORIES....Do you get that part of it???
He wasn't accusing anyone of anything and they damn well know it. He was relaying stories that other veterans had told to him. He explains how that came about in the paragraph before he lists the atrocities that OTHER SOLDIERS told him...not that he saw.

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

I have a hard time seeing how the Kerry campaign can effectively counteract that.

Can you possibly see how deceptive and dishonest that is? If people will just read for themselves rather than being spoon fed the information, I don't see what is so hard about putting the lie to this piece of trash.

Btw...I assume you believe Bush was "suppressing free speech" as well? Or, is it only bad when Kerry does it????
 
John F. Kerry will get all the votes that a dead cat would get running on the Democrat ticket.
When I read most of the posts in here from Kerry supporters, they even claim they don't care who the democrats run, they will vote democrat.
This is a direct admission that they are voting AGAINST President Bush, and have NO reason to support Kerry.
I am proud to assert that I am voting FOR President Bush. He has accomplished more in the past three years than the prior 12 years of Democrat presidents.
President Bush has given the country three years of statesmanlike leadership, with the help of the most competent administration our country has ever seen.
Think of the following:

Economy
= Bush inherited an economy in decline. A recession started within weeks of his taking office.
= The corporate corruption exploded within four months, causing panic in the financial funds that hold the retirement accounts.
= The terrorists attacked NYC in the first 8 months of his administration, taking more than a trillion dollars out of the economy and requiring many billions of non-productive expenses.
By all rights, we should have fallen into a deep recession that would last for a decade. However, President Bush's tax cuts - that he had promised during the campaign - has led to an economic turnaround that no one would have thought possible.

Security
= Bush inherited a world that was a powder keg, and the fuse had been lit four years earlier. Terrorists had come to believe that america was a paper tiger that would suffer attack after attack without responding.
= Bush inherited a "world opinion" that was all too eager to boost the popularity of a president who was only interested in being popular. World opinion = meaning France = had come to believe that if they could praise our president enough, he would allow France to dictate or policy.
= In President Bush, "world opinion" discovered a man who was interested only in protecting America - and could not care less about what France thought about it. Of course, France is upset. Who cares? Except Kerry of course - he wants France to love us (him).
President Bush responded to the terror attack in magnificient fashion. Within months the Taliban Regime had been eliminated, and within two years the Baathist Party of Saddam had been eliminated. That war rages on.
He institued the Department of Homeland Defense - the largest reorganization of our Security apparatus since FDR. He put troops in the field where they would be able to fight terrorists on their home ground, rather than allowing them to concentrate on building their strength in our homeland.
As a result, even though the fighting in Iraq continues. no further attacks have occurred in America, and we see other countries being more careful about their association with terrorist groups.

Honesty
= President Bush has been the most honest politician of the past two decades.
= What the critics of President Bush have called "lies" exemplify the fact that it is the critics themselves who are lying.
= A "lie" means to tell something that is known to be false, with the intent to either harm another, or to obtain advantage for yourself. Bush has done none of this, while the democrats engage in it daily.
In evaluating the events of the last five years, I have found no instance where George Bush told a lie. I can enumerate hundreds of lies that are spewed by the democrats about President Bush.

I could write a book about the reasons I am FOR President Bush, and I could write another book about why John Kerry is unfit for command.

There is no doubt in my mind who is the better man.
George W. Bush is a statesman
John F. Kerry is a dead cat.
 
Originally posted by WillyJ
Bet,

When the message comes from messengers like these, isn't that a reasonable part of deciding whether they have any credibility?


Don't you want to know what kind of people Rush is telling you to trust?

I don't listen to Rush, and I certainly wouldn't rely on him to tell me who to trust.

I read a variety of different sources, right and left, and make up my own mind.

As for the statements you quoted, I'd say they're no different than some of the outrageous comments Michael Moore has made over the years. And he's been completely embraced by the mainstream Democratic party.
 
piece by piece, their story is falling apart..from the NYTimes article:




Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year.

In an unpublished interview in March 2003 with Mr. Kerry's authorized biographer, Douglas Brinkley, provided by Mr. Brinkley to The New York Times, Roy F. Hoffmann, a retired rear admiral and a leader of the group, allowed that he had disagreed with Mr. Kerry's antiwar positions but said, "I am not going to say anything negative about him." He added, "He's a good man."

In a profile of the candidate that ran in The Boston Globe in June 2003, Mr. Hoffmann approvingly recalled the actions that led to Mr. Kerry's Silver Star: "It took guts, and I admire that."

George Elliott, one of the Vietnam veterans in the group, flew from his home in Delaware to Boston in 1996 to stand up for Mr. Kerry during a tough re-election fight, declaring at a news conference that the action that won Mr. Kerry a Silver Star was "an act of courage." At that same event, Adrian L. Lonsdale, another Vietnam veteran now speaking out against Mr. Kerry, supported him with a statement about the "bravado and courage of the young officers that ran the Swift boats."

"Senator Kerry was no exception," Mr. Lonsdale told the reporters and cameras assembled at the Charlestown Navy Yard. "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

Those comments echoed the official record. In an evaluation of Mr. Kerry in 1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his commanders, ranked him as "not exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral courage, judgment and decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the second-highest distinction - in the remaining five. In written comments, he called Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged leader in his peer group."

The group's arguments have foundered on other contradictions. In the television commercial, Dr. Louis Letson looks into the camera and declares, "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury." Dr. Letson does not dispute the wound - a piece of shrapnel above Mr. Kerry's left elbow - but he and others in the group argue that it was minor and self-inflicted.

Yet Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records for Mr. Kerry. Under "person administering treatment" for the injury, the form is signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years ago. Dr. Letson said it was common for medics to treat sailors with the kind of injury that Mr. Kerry had and to fill out paperwork when doctors did the treatment.

Asked in an interview if there was any way to confirm he had treated Mr. Kerry, Dr. Letson said, "I guess you'll have to take my word for it."

The group also offers the account of William L. Schachte Jr., a retired rear admiral who says in the book that he had been on the small skimmer on which Mr. Kerry was injured that night in December 1968. He contends that Mr. Kerry wounded himself while firing a grenade.

But the two other men who acknowledged that they had been with Mr. Kerry, Bill Zaladonis and Mr. Runyon, say they cannot recall a third crew member. "Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to three," Mr. Runyon said in an interview. And even Dr. Letson said he had not recalled Mr. Schachte until he had a conversation with another veteran earlier this year and received a subsequent phone call from Mr. Schachte himself.

Mr. Schachte did not return a telephone call, and a spokesman for the group said he would not comment.

The Silver Star was awarded after Mr. Kerry's boat came under heavy fire from shore during a mission in February 1969. According to Navy records, he turned the boat to charge the Vietcong position. An enemy solider sprang from the shore about 10 feet in front of the boat. Mr. Kerry leaped onto the shore, chased the soldier behind a small hut and killed him, seizing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber.

As serious questions about its claims have arisen, the group has remained steadfast and adaptable.

This week, as its leaders spoke with reporters, they have focused primarily on the one allegation in the book that Mr. Kerry's campaign has not been able to put to rest: that he was not in Cambodia at Christmas in 1968, as he declared in a statement to the Senate in 1986. Even Mr. Brinkley, who has emerged as a defender of Mr. Kerry, said in an interview that it was unlikely that Mr. Kerry's Swift boat ventured into Cambodia at Christmas, though he said he believed that Mr. Kerry was probably there shortly afterward.

The group said it would introduce a new advertisement against Mr. Kerry on Friday. What drives the veterans, they acknowledge, is less what Mr. Kerry did during his time in Vietnam than what he said after. Their affidavits and their television commercial focus mostly on those antiwar statements. Most members of the group object to his using the word "atrocities" to describe what happened in Vietnam when he returned and became an antiwar activist. And they are offended, they say, by the gall of his running for president as a hero of that war.

"I went to university and was called a baby killer and a murderer because of guys like Kerry and what he was saying," said Van Odell, who appears in the first advertisement, accusing Mr. Kerry of lying to get his Bronze Star. "Not once did I participate in the atrocities he said were happening."

As Mr. Lonsdale explained it: "We won the battle. Kerry went home and lost the war for us.

"He called us rapers and killers and that's not true," he continued. "If he expects our loyalty, we should expect loyalty from him."

The group's arguments have foundered on other contradictions. In the television commercial, Dr. Louis Letson looks into the camera and declares, "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury." Dr. Letson does not dispute the wound - a piece of shrapnel above Mr. Kerry's left elbow - but he and others in the group argue that it was minor and self-inflicted.
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Yet Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records for Mr. Kerry. Under "person administering treatment" for the injury, the form is signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years ago. Dr. Letson said it was common for medics to treat sailors with the kind of injury that Mr. Kerry had and to fill out paperwork when doctors did the treatment.

Asked in an interview if there was any way to confirm he had treated Mr. Kerry, Dr. Letson said, "I guess you'll have to take my word for it."

The group also offers the account of William L. Schachte Jr., a retired rear admiral who says in the book that he had been on the small skimmer on which Mr. Kerry was injured that night in December 1968. He contends that Mr. Kerry wounded himself while firing a grenade.

But the two other men who acknowledged that they had been with Mr. Kerry, Bill Zaladonis and Mr. Runyon, say they cannot recall a third crew member. "Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to three," Mr. Runyon said in an interview. And even Dr. Letson said he had not recalled Mr. Schachte until he had a conversation with another veteran earlier this year and received a subsequent phone call from Mr. Schachte himself.

Mr. Schachte did not return a telephone call, and a spokesman for the group said he would not comment.

The Silver Star was awarded after Mr. Kerry's boat came under heavy fire from shore during a mission in February 1969. According to Navy records, he turned the boat to charge the Vietcong position. An enemy solider sprang from the shore about 10 feet in front of the boat. Mr. Kerry leaped onto the shore, chased the soldier behind a small hut and killed him, seizing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber.

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth describes the man Mr. Kerry killed as a solitary wounded teenager "in a loincloth," who may or may not have been armed. They say the charge to the beach was planned the night before and, citing a report from one crew member on a different boat, maintain that the sailors even schemed about who would win which medals.

The group says Mr. Kerry himself wrote the reports that led to the medal. But Mr. Elliott and Mr. Lonsdale, who handled reports going up the line for recognition, have previously said that a medal would be awarded only if there was corroboration from others and that they had thoroughly corroborated the accounts.

"Witness reports were reviewed; battle reports were reviewed," Mr. Lonsdale said at the 1996 news conference, adding, "It was a very complete and carefully orchestrated procedure." In his statements Mr. Elliott described the action that day as "intense" and "unusual."

According to a citation for Mr. Kerry's Bronze Star, a group of Swift boats was leaving the Bay Hap river when several mines detonated, disabling one boat and knocking a soldier named Jim Rassmann overboard. In a hail of enemy fire, Mr. Kerry turned the boat around to pull Mr. Rassmann from the water.

Mr. Rassmann, who says he is a Republican, reappeared during the Iowa caucuses this year to tell his story and support Mr. Kerry, and is widely credited with helping to revive Mr. Kerry's campaign.

But the group says that there was no enemy fire, and that while Mr. Kerry did rescue Mr. Rassmann, the action was what anyone would have expected of a sailor, and hardly heroic. Asked why Mr. Rassmann recalled that he was dodging enemy bullets, a member of the group, Jack Chenoweth, said, "He's lying."

"If that's what we have to say," Mr. Chenoweth added, "that's how it was."

Several veterans insist that Mr. Kerry wrote his own reports, pointing to the initials K. J. W. on one of the reports and saying they are Mr. Kerry's. "What's the W for, I cannot answer," said Larry Thurlow, who said his boat was 50 to 60 yards from Mr. Kerry's. Mr. Kerry's middle initial is F, and a Navy official said the initials refer to the person who had received the report at headquarters, not the author.
 
Wow, Rokkitsci, that was some awesome 1st post. Welcome to the DIS. And hey, ITA!!!
 















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