Kerry and Bush supporters. A question for y'all.

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by Saffron
Just keep reading that part over and over again Kendra, until you finally see what Kerry was saying. And remember that Kerry says, "I believe ..." That doesn't make it a fact, that is what Kerry believes.

I kept reading it, Saffron, with the other quote I included on the thread. So, yeah, actually it does. At least this is the conclusion I drew from carefully analyzing all of the facts presented to me. Kerry really helped me here, since he's never recanted his story in all of these years.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
Ollie North????

Huh??

I just heard him say today that he did not do any such things while in VN that Kerry has admitted to.

Is that what you're implying?

 

[Saffron]

Oh my gosh! I swear we need a head banging smilie here!

Who the hell did Kerry accuse of anything and what did he accuse them of doing?! How the hell did he lie! Spin and spin and spin until you guys make yourselves dizzy! No matter how far you spin and how many directions taking bits and pieces of different stories and adding them together to come up with some sort of answer you want doesn't make any sense! But have fun!

And I'm not kidding, each time you call Kerry a liar or a war criminal for his service or comments after the war, you're doing it to thousands and thousands of others who served honorably who changed their minds about their involvement and actions in the war. Do you like doing that!?!?!?!!?!?!

Oh and Ollie! ROTFLOL!

"Irangate colonel avoids prison

Former White House aide Oliver North has escaped jail for his part in the Iran-Contra affair. The decorated Vietnam veteran was convicted of three - out of 12 - charges relating to illegal United States' support for the Contra rebels in Nicaragua in the mid-1980s.

He received a three-year suspended prison sentence, two years on probation, 1,200 hours' community service with inner city drugs projects and a $150,000 fine ..."

And he called WHO a liar and a war criminal!?!?!?!? Bwhahahahahahaha!

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by Saffron
Kendra -- I agree with you and Kerry! AFTER Kerry came home from Vietnam, he researched and realized what was going on in Vietnam was wrong, and he made those statements and he lives by them.

The difference difference between you and me is, I REFUSE to call Kerry a war criminal or a liar. When you do it Kendra, which I have a feeling you might do to get your kicks, just remember you are calling several thousand other Vietnam Veterans war criminals NOT just Kerry. If he, a soldier who served there, wants to feel that way about himself and the others he represented during his days in V V AW, so be it. And if other Vietnam Veterans want to hate him for it, so be it.

I will NEVER label him or any of the Vietnam Veterans who served their country and followed direct orders as honorably and as dignified as they could, a war criminal! Did they commit atrocities, yes. If anyone burned villages that had no Viet Cong or North Vietnamese ties, yes. Is he and thousands of other soldiers war criminals if they are following orders that seem to be orders that are the norm, the way war is fought? No! The commanders and the government that sent those men to do their dirty deeds who KNEW the orders they were giving were in opposition to the Hague and Geneva Conventions were! They "made" those unknowing soldiers break the conventions!

Kerry's story is not unique. Thousands of soldiers went off to Vietnam feeling and knowing one thing, only to find out after they came home, what they were really doing! I wouldn't condemn them for all the money in the world!

When you condemn one Vietnam soldier for those acts, you condemn them all. Unless you served in the Vietnam War, and were made to believe that what you were doing was acceptable and the standard and something to live up to, and then discovered you had been duped, I wouldn't do it.

You seem to understand the message he was trying to get across to the government to end the war and the atrocities, why would you now twist it to belittle him with it?

How do you feel about the soldiers that were actually charged with war crimes?

What was that one guy's name???

Just because YOU refuse to call him a liar or a war criminal doesn't change the fact that he's one or the other.

Do you feel that way about people who commit crimes (civilian) ?That maybe were just hanging out with the wrong crowd? Or that they were just a product of their circumstances? And they are unjustly labeled a criminal?

 

[faithinkarma]

Originally posted by Elwood Blues
Huh??

I just heard him say today that he did not do any such things while in VN that Kerry has admitted to.

Is that what you're implying?

why, no, I was laughing at the idea of North calling someone a liar.

 

[peachgirl]

He received a three-year suspended prison sentence, two years on probation, 1,200 hours' community service with inner city drugs projects and a $150,000 fine ..."

Oh yeah, now there is the reliable source to beat all reliable sources!!!!

The rotf smilie just can do it justice!!




You know the new attack on Kerry that I love??

The Bush people are now saying because Kerry said "Bring it on" to Bush about going toe to toe on their military service, he's "out of control"...

Then what the hell was Bush when he invited the terrorists to give us their best shot???


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[Kendra17]

Originally posted by Saffron
Kendra -- I agree with you and Kerry! AFTER Kerry came home from Vietnam, he researched and realized what was going on in Vietnam was wrong, and he made those statements and he lives by them.

The difference difference between you and me is, I REFUSE to call Kerry a war criminal or a liar. When you do it Kendra, which I have a feeling you might do to get your kicks, just remember you are calling several thousand other Vietnam Veterans war criminals NOT just Kerry. If he, a soldier who served there, wants to feel that way about himself and the others he represented during his days in V V AW, so be it. And if other Vietnam Veterans want to hate him for it, so be it.

I will NEVER label him or any of the Vietnam Veterans who served their country and followed direct orders as honorably and as dignified as they could, a war criminal! Did they commit attrocities, yes. If anyone burned villages that had no Viet Cong or North Vietnamese ties, yes. Is he and thousands of other soldiers war criminals if they are following orders that seem to be orders that are the norm, the way war is fought? No! The commanders and the government that sent those men to do their dirty deeds who KNEW the orders they were giving were in opposition to the Hague and Geneva Conventions were! They "made" those unknowing soldiers break the conventions!

Kerry's story is not unique. Thousands of soldiers went off to Vietnam feeling and knowing one thing, only to find out after they came home, what they were really doing! I wouldn't condemn them for all the money in the world!

When you condemn one Vietnam soldier for those acts, you condemn them all. Unless you served in the Vietnam War, and were made to believe that what you were doing was acceptable and the standard and something to live up to, and then discovered you had been duped, I wouldn't do it.

You seem to understand the message he was trying to get across to the government to end the war and the atrocities, why would you now twist it to belittle him with it?

Thank you for your well thought out opinion. As we know, you are indeed entitled to it. Actually, the truth is that I understand what he was doing, too. But, since I don't believe that he participated in those "atrocities" and since I sincerely doubt that they were commanded to commit those atrocities, I'm actually not insulting any other soldier--just Kerry. I thought I had made that part clear in my posts; apparently I had not.

To put your mind at ease, I do, in fact, call him a liar at home. I do this, because I believe people like John O'Neill who FULLY sources and credibly defends his book and the allegations against him when speaking, Oliver North's recent condemnation of Kerry and show of support for the SBV, and the SBV who call his conduct into question, as well.

If you see my posts, you will indeed see that I usually say, he's either a war criminal or a liar. Either one, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION (based on the definitions of war crimes and his own statements), would be correct.

I'm not sure you realize that many people consider the Winter Soldier story to be a false one.

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Historians

Therefore, it is HE who condemns those that served. I certainly do not.

I did hear an apt and interesting comparison recently, however. The speaker stated that for the Left to dismiss the SVB's claims--all 255 of them--is very much the same as the Left spitting on them and condemning them when they returned to America after serving their country in Vietnam.

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by peachgirl
You know Kendra, you'd look a lot better and your credibility would be helped if you'd simply say the following.

I was wrong. I said that Kerry testified that he participated in and was witness to others committing war crimes.

That was a mistake and I apologize.


I won't hold my breath.

Yes, holding your breath would not be a good idea since I am not wrong. I did, in fact, admit I was wrong earlier when i mentioned Congress rather than the Senate, and lumped other quotes together. You were correct, i said. I was wrong, I said.

However, he is a self-admitted war criminal. If he is not really a war criminal, well then, he lied. As I've said before, I actually believe he lied. . .but he denies that he has. I think that's quite a conundrum.

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by Elwood Blues
How do you feel about the soldiers that were actually charged with war crimes?

What was that one guy's name???

Just because YOU refuse to call him a liar or a war criminal doesn't change the fact that he's one or the other.

Do you feel that way about people who commit crimes (civilian) ?That maybe were just hanging out with the wrong crowd? Or that they were just a product of their circumstances? And they are unjustly labeled a criminal?

yeah Elwood!

 

[peachgirl]

So, which one is the liar, Kendra?

Bush or the SBVT group??

Because one of them has to be.

I am not wrong.

I did, in fact, admit I was wrong

Ok, I'll admit...I have a hard time debating that....


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[bsnyder]

Originally posted by peachgirl
So, which one is the liar, Kendra?

Bush or the SBVT group??

Because one of them has to be.


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Huh? You lost me here!

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by Saffron
Oh my gosh! I swear we need a head banging smilie here!

Who the hell did Kerry accuse of anything and what did he accuse them of doing?! How the hell did he lie! Spin and spin and spin until you guys make yourselves dizzy! No matter how far you spin and how many directions taking bits and pieces of different stories and adding them together to come up with some sort of answer you want doesn't make any sense! But have fun!

And I'm not kidding, each time you call Kerry a liar or a war criminal for his service or comments after the war, you're doing it to thousands and thousands of others who served honorably who changed their minds about their involvement and actions in the war. Do you like doing that!?!?!?!!?!?!

Great, more redirection. Let's leave North out of it. Ok?

Spin??? I'll send you a Dramamine. OK?

Kerry admitted in TWO interviews that he committed such crimes. Did you not read that?

Who did he accuse? No one by name but he accused thousands of other soldiers of committing such acts.


Here it is again:

I personally didn't see personal atrocities in the sense that I saw somebody cut a head off or something like that. However, I did take part in free fire zones and I did take part in harassment interdiction fire. I did take part in search-and-destroy missions in which the houses of noncombatants were burned to the ground. And all of these, I find out later on, these acts are contrary to the Hague and Geneva Conventions and to the laws of warfare. So in that sense, anybody who took part in those, if you carry out the applications of the Nuremberg principles, is in fact guilty.

There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free-fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.

Ok. So now that we've established that fact, we can now call him a liar or a war criminal. If that means that others must be labeled war criminals, so be it. If they were following direct orders, they had the obligation to refuse to do something they knew was illegal and report their commanders to others higher up the CoC.

 

[peachgirl]

The SBVT group says, at least they're saying now, well unless you count Thurlow last night on Hardball who said he didn't question Kerry's bronze star...

Anyway, they say that Kerry is a liar, that he did not earn his medals, that he deserted his men by leaving early, he intentionally injured himself to go home...etc, etc..etc...


George W. Bush says that John Kerry served his country with honor and destinction and that he is a war hero.


One of them is obviously lying....


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[Kendra17]

Originally posted by peachgirl
quote:I am not wrong.



quote:I did, in fact, admit I was wrong


Ok, I'll admit...I have a hard time debating that....

Very clever use of spin and creative editing! Your willingness to use whatever methods necessary to discredit someone else is disapponting.! You are certainly commended for your intellectual dishonesty!

Edited for clarity

 

[peachgirl]

I am not wrong. I did, in fact, admit I was wrong earlier when i mentioned Congress rather than the Senate, and lumped other quotes together.

Ok, there's the whole sentence...no editing at all.



Now, want to answer the question?




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[Kendra17]

Originally posted by peachgirl
The SBVT group says, at least they're saying now, well unless you count Thurlow last night on Hardball who said he didn't question Kerry's bronze star...

Anyway, they say that Kerry is a liar, that he did not earn his medals, that he deserted his men by leaving early, he intentionally injured himself to go home...etc, etc..etc...


George W. Bush says that John Kerry served his country with honor and destinction and that he is a war hero.


One of them is obviously lying....

I'm surprised at your obvious lack of understanding. Bush is behaving completely appropriately since he is not a SBV. He was in Texas or Alabama--as you continually point out.

However, he is noticeably not condemning the SBV, either, as we all know.

This doesn't make him a liar. . .there is no connection from your first point to your other-- unlike the conundrum facing Kerry's admitted war criminal status or the fact that he lied about it.

 

[Saffron]

How do you feel about the soldiers that were actually charged with war crimes?

What was that one guy's name???

Just because YOU refuse to call him a liar or a war criminal doesn't change the fact that he's one or the other.

Do you feel that way about people who commit crimes (civilian) ?That maybe were just hanging out with the wrong crowd? Or that they were just a product of their circumstances? And they are unjustly labeled a criminal?

Uhhh, the soldiers that were charged with crimes? Were they convicted? If so, that would make them convicted war criminals wouldn't it? And if they weren't, I guess depending on the outcome of the trial they would be not guilty or innocent. Since I don't know any Vietnam Veterans that were actually charged with crimes, I can't tell you how I feel about them. But if I read accounts of their crimes, I could tell you what I think about their crimes. I guess I'd have to hear and see a full account from the soldier to decide what I think about him? I really don't know. Are you thinking of Lt. Cally? If so, my opinion is war criminal, because he gave orders to KILL innocent men, women and children, approx 300.

That's a hell of a lot different than doing "search and destroy", "harrassment" and "firing in free zones". Don't forget, "search and destroy", "harrassment" and "firing in free zones" was common then, seen as "normal acts of war". I never knew it was against the Geneva Conventions until I read Kerry's testimony, then read the Geneva and Hague Conventions. I can almost guarantee you most people who lived through Vietnam, who had loved ones fight there, never knew or still don't know, because it was common knowledge that those things occured. The evening news used to show soldiers lighting house roofs on fire. How many hundreds and hundreds of times have any of "you" seen it in documentaries about the war? Did "you" always think "Ooooooooh! Look! A war crime!" I bet not! And if "you" (anybody reading this, no one directly) didn't know, why would "you" think the soldier ordered to do so knew BEFORE they were doing it?!?!

Killing, intentionally, of civilians is always a war crime, always, and no one learns about that after the fact.

And now it's a FACT that Kerry is a liar and or a war criminal?! So if I say your a liar and a war criminal Elwood, does that make you one!? That's the logic you're using, right?! So ... are all the other Vietnam Vets that feel the same he does liars and/or war criminals too!? Are you willing to say that to them? Are you willing to shame and discredit any of the Vets that served in Vietnam that are of the same opinion as Kerry!?!?! Or is Kerry just "special"?

Sorry, I can't answer your last questions, because I don't know what you're getting at or what you mean. How would I know if anyone was unjustly labeled a criminal or not if I know nothing about a person, the crime, the trial process or the trial? I don't know any criminals!

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by Elwood Blues
Great, more redirection. Let's leave North out of it. Ok?

Spin??? I'll send you a Dramamine. OK?

Kerry admitted in TWO interviews that he committed such crimes. Did you not read that?

Who did he accuse? No one by name but he accused thousands of other soldiers of committing such acts.


Here it is again:





Ok. So now that we've established that fact, we can now call him a liar or a war criminal. If that means that others must be labeled war criminals, so be it. If they were following direct orders, they had the obligation to refuse to do something they knew was illegal and report their commanders to others higher up the CoC.

They will not admit this is fact . . .although it clearly is.

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by peachgirl
Ok, there's the whole sentence...no editing at all.



Now, want to answer the question?

Yes, I stated I was not wrong about Kerry being an admitted war criminal and a liar. . .and I was responding to my post earlier when I did indeed admit I was wrong about something else--his testimony at the Senate rather than the Congress, and lumping all of his statements made on the Dick Cavett show and Meet the Press together (as if that really makes too much of a difference). Unless you are really even less intelligent than I normally give you credit for (I mean you seem fairly educated, just have a hard time thinking out of the box), then you are just trying to cleverly spin these facts or are just acting incitefully.

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by Saffron


And now it's a FACT that Kerry is a liar and or a war criminal?! So if I say your a liar and a war criminal Elwood, does that make you one!?

I'm sorry, I'm not Elwood, but this logic is entirely wrong. If ELWOOD says he's a war criminal, who are we to dispute that? If you tell me you are, in fact a criminal, who am I to dispute that? Unless you have a history of either lying or emotional instability, there's no reason to doubt your honesty. . .until new information comes out.

I, personally, am NOT accusing Kerry of being a war criminal. I was taking at his word, until learning otherwise. However, he hasn't recanted his statements. So, although I don't BELIEVE he's telling the truth any longer, I am still referring to him as an ADMITTED war criminal. . .or a liar, which he is. . .