Kerry and Bush supporters. A question for y'all.

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by richiebaseball
It seems Senator John Kerry disagrees with you.

"I will always honor anybody who serves in the National Guard and carries out his or her service commitment."

Now this was in a statement to the National Guard Association of the United States so perhaps the message would change for a different audience, who knows.

More spurious crap about "flip-flopping, huh ? So, when are you going to condemn Shrub for the same thing ? Seems every other day now he's reversing course on something or another...lol

As for Kerry's comment...he's a politician, he has to say that. I'm not.

Originally posted by richiebaseball
And here is retired Maj. Gen. Richard C. Alexander, NGAUS president:

"The Guard during Vietnam was not all that different than it is today or any time in our 367-year history," he said. "Citizens joined and served their country. Some were sent to war. Some of those never came home. Anything else is just a misrepresentation of history Guardsmen know to be true."

Ok...You're right...I'm just making the whole thing up...Kinda like those atrocities in Vietnam...It never really happened...Rich kids didn't really join the guard to avoid actual service

Originally posted by richiebaseball
In case you want to bring up the part that says "carries out his or her service commitment," George W. Bush received an honorable discharge. Apparently you don't get one of those without fulfilling your commitment. You have a problem with that, take it up with the National Guard.

http://www.ngaus.org/newsroom/kerryresponds021304.asp

Richard

Why was Shrub grounded from flying ? Why didn't he show up for a scheduled physical ? Did he bother to show up at ALL during that one year ? Why are Republicans so askeered of answering these questions ?

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by richiebaseball
wvrevy, I'm still curious if you have seen the Max Cleland morphing ad. If you have, then we have seen two different commercials. I remember the ad when it was running and that's not the ad I saw.

Richard

I actually went to look for that ad when you mentioned it yesterday, and couldn't find it. I DO believe I saw it, but since I can't find evidence to back it up, I'll concede the point that they didn't "morph" his face into bin Ladin...they just compared Cleeland to him. Not exactly the same, but still nauseating.

 

[peachgirl]

Rich kids didn't really join the guard to avoid actual service

I guess Colin Powell is lying too then, because he agrees with you.

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." (Colin Powell’s autobiography, My American Journey, p. 148)

Anyone who claims that the National Guard during Vietnam was not used as an out by the rich and powerful is either out and out lying or doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

[richiebaseball]

Originally posted by wvrevy
More spurious crap about "flip-flopping, huh ? So, when are you going to condemn Shrub for the same thing ? Seems every other day now he's reversing course on something or another...lol

As for Kerry's comment...he's a politician, he has to say that. I'm not.

I have condemned President Bush for many things. Not as many as Senator Kerry, that's true. But that's because I think a President Bush is less dangerous over the next four years than a President Kerry.

Originally posted by wvrevy
Ok...You're right...I'm just making the whole thing up...Kinda like those atrocities in Vietnam...It never really happened...Rich kids didn't really join the guard to avoid actual service

Try this thread http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=632031&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

and you will find this comment by me:

Originally posted by richiebaseball
IMO I won't fault anyone for serving, however they served. It's certainly very possible that George W. Bush used family connections to get into the National Guard. And he wasn't the only one. But National Guard is not a dirty word. It was a very unpopular war and many tried to get out of Vietnam in different ways.

Based on that many assume that George W. Bush ducked Vietnam by using family connections to join the Guard. And hey, it's easy to make that assumption. What we can't know however is what would George W. Bush have done had he been unable to get into the Guard?

Originally posted by wvrevy
Why was Shrub grounded from flying ? Why didn't he show up for a scheduled physical ? Did he bother to show up at ALL during that one year ? Why are Republicans so askeered of answering these questions ?

Again, he has an honorable discharge. I understand that isn't enough for some but you'll have to take that up with the National Guard. As for his records, they claim they're lost or gone. Maybe they are. Or maybe they aren't and they don't like what's in them.
And Senator Kerry has 3 purple hearts. For wounds received in combat. And that makes him a hero. Why he doesn't release his medical records only he knows. Maybe he doesn't like everything in them.

Just one man's opinion.

Richard

 

[peachgirl]

I have a vague recollection about the morphing ad and my recollection was they did it to Cleland and Daschle. I couldn't find the ad either, but there's plenty of talk about it:

Republican-supported ads aired against Max Cleland, a Democrat from Georgia who eventually lost his Senate seat. The ads featured Cleland's face morphing into Osama bin Laden's, and unlike the Bush ads, Cleland's ads actually appeared on television during the 2002 Senate race.

Contrast this with the behavior of the RNC and its allies when supporters of President Bush used TV ads morphing the faces of Sens. Tom Daschle (D-SD) and Max Cleland (D-GA) into that of Osama Bin Laden during the 2002 Senate races.

Again, he has an honorable discharge. I understand that isn't enough for some but you'll have to take that up with the National Guard. As for his records, they claim they're lost or gone. Maybe they are. Or maybe they aren't and they don't like what's in them.

Why is that all good enough for Bush, but not for Kerry? I'd be perfectly willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his service, but the Republicans insist on holding Kerry's feet to the fire with not one shred of evidence to back it up and Bush should be held to at least the same standard.

 

[richiebaseball]

Originally posted by wvrevy
I actually went to look for that ad when you mentioned it yesterday, and couldn't find it. I DO believe I saw it, but since I can't find evidence to back it up, I'll concede the point that they didn't "morph" his face into bin Ladin...they just compared Cleeland to him. Not exactly the same, but still nauseating.

Thanks for the gift but I don't want a concession. I just want to see the ad. And then either I can condemn this morph or put to rest the morphing lie. It's one or the other. And the ad didn't compare them either. This is an AP story from the Macon (Ga) Telegraph when the ad started running:

Ad uses Saddam, bin Laden to question Cleland's record

JEFFREY McMURRAY

Associated Press Writer


WASHINGTON - Sen. Max Cleland is angrily defending himself against a rival's television ad that shows pictures of Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden and implies the Democratic incumbent is soft on homeland security.

The ad, sponsored by Republican Rep. Saxby Chambliss' Senate campaign, doesn't directly compare Cleland and the rogue leaders but alleges the senator isn't telling the truth when he claims to support some of President Bush's efforts in the war against terrorism. It began airing Friday in the Atlanta market.

The ad's primary focus is Cleland's position on legislation creating a homeland security department Bush is seeking. Although Cleland supports one version of that bill, he says he won't support the president's preference without an amendment guaranteeing labor rights for federal workers.

"To put my picture up there with Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden and insinuate I'm not fighting hard enough for national security, I just find that this is an incredible low in Georgia politics," Cleland said.

The ad claims Cleland voted against Bush's preferred department 11 times, most in procedural votes as the legislation moved through the committee process. In a statement from his campaign, Chambliss said he appreciates the war record of Cleland - who lost both legs and an arm in a Vietnam grenade blast - but urged him to follow the president's lead on homeland security.

"Georgians deserve to know - all Americans deserve to know - why Max Cleland is more concerned with protecting federal bureaucracy, rules and regulations than creating a department that can respond effectively to future threats of terrorism," Chambliss said.

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/4264879.htm

And here's the ad. http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/Anti-Cleland.rm

I just want to know if this is the ad that has reached mythical status.

Richard

 

[Teejay32]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Umm...I thought I was It wasn't I that turned it into some kind of condemnation of every person that ever entered guard duty, but AFRocks. If you don't like the way the conversation turned, talk to her abou it.

No, I think it's just that you have a problem with one particular rich privileged kid, but this thread concerns two of them, and I always have that in mind. Regardless of how Bush got in, (I'm not convinced strings were pulled, but okay), I feel very uncomfortable criticizing the Texas Air Guard. First because I never saw any evidence that this was a 'safe' place to avoid Vietnam, second because their duty was inherently dangerous in any country, third because if given the choice right now between going to the front lines in Iraq or flying jets - I'm off to Iraq. Forget it, I can barely stand watching jets fly.

Facts about the National Guard in general are kind of useless here.

 

[richiebaseball]

Originally posted by peachgirl
I have a vague recollection about the morphing ad and my recollection was they did it to Cleland and Daschle. I couldn't find the ad either, but there's plenty of talk about it:

And there's plenty of talk that the ad is a myth. I don't know where you are but by your name you could be in Georgia. I am in Georgia. Metro Atlanta to be precise. And I remember the ad. Very well. Especially since I voted for Cleland in 1998. For the record, I did not vote for him in 2002. I couldn't understand the fuss then and I can't understand it now.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, he has an honorable discharge. I understand that isn't enough for some but you'll have to take that up with the National Guard. As for his records, they claim they're lost or gone. Maybe they are. Or maybe they aren't and they don't like what's in them.

Originally posted by peachgirl
Why is that all good enough for Bush, but not for Kerry? I'd be perfectly willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his service, but the Republicans insist on holding Kerry's feet to the fire with not one shred of evidence to back it up and Bush should be held to at least the same standard.

I'm confused as to whom you are asking. If it's me(not a Republican), I've already said they both served. If you're referring to President Bush, I believe he is on record as saying he believes Senator Kerry served admirably. Just like Senator Kerry is on record as saying everyone served and it really shouldn't matter. If you're referring to Republicans in general and the anti-Democrat 527's then it seems you are ignoring Democrats in general and the anti-Republican 527's that continue to hold the President's feet to the fire on the National Guard issue.

As to any connection issue, Democrat or Republican, they're all just people basically the same inside. And either the Bush campaign is illegally in bed with 527's and the Kerry campaign is illegally in bed with the 527's or they're both not. I highly doubt one is while the other isn't.

Just one man's opinion.

Richard

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by wvrevy
As for Kerry's comment...he's a politician, he has to say that. I'm not.

Oh my, now that's precious. So in effect you're saying we shouldn't believe anything any politician says because we can't be sure that what he's saying he actually believes?

Do I have that right?

 

[hooksmom]

I realized during the swift boat thing that I won't investigate. Usually, I wait to the last minute to know who to vote for, read everything I can find, line out issues of importance and then pick my candidate.

On this one though, it turns out I'm a single issue candidate. My single issue?? Getting rid of Criminal Bush. I've never felt so strongly. This is the most important election in my lifetime. For the safety of my kids and grandkids, he must be removed from office.

 

[richiebaseball]

Originally posted by hooksmom
I realized during the swift boat thing that I won't investigate.

I'll give you credit for at least admitting you prefer to be an uninformed voter.

Richard

 

[hooksmom]

I'm very informed.

Bush is destroying our national security by destroying our international relations.

He has repeatedly lied to the American public

For personal gain, he has sent hundreds of young American men and women to their deaths, all the while inflicting the collateral damage of death and injury to innocent civilians, including women and children

He has taken us from surplus to deficit

He has eroded our civil rights

He has torpedoed our economy and destroyed the working and middle class by leading the nation to a time of terrible unemployment all the while shipping good jobs to other countries

He has rolled back environmental standards, putting our children at risk

That is all I need to know. He is unfit for office. We essentially get two choices--- Bush or Kerry. My vote for Kerry is a vote against Bush who has squandered his opportunity for leadership all the while endangering Americans and many others.

 

[DawnCt1]

Originally posted by hooksmom
I'm very informed.

.

After what has followed your assertion that you are very informed, I would have to disagree.

 

[richiebaseball]

Originally posted by hooksmom
I realized during the swift boat thing that I won't investigate. Usually, I wait to the last minute to know who to vote for, read everything I can find, line out issues of importance and then pick my candidate.

On this one though, it turns out I'm a single issue candidate. My single issue?? Getting rid of Criminal Bush. I've never felt so strongly. This is the most important election in my lifetime. For the safety of my kids and grandkids, he must be removed from office.

My bad. This sounds like you're saying you typically wait until the last minute to investigate candidates and issues but since the swift boat thing you don't feel the need to investigate this time. Hence my uninformed voter comment.

But I see you do indeed have your half-truths and innuendo. Again, my bad.

Richard

 

[hooksmom]

Originally posted by DawnCt1
After what has followed your assertion that you are very informed, I would have to disagree.

Let's see.... on what point am I wrong?

Isn't it true that there were no WMD's? That Iraq had no connection to 911? That Bush sold us a bill of goods based on doctored intelligence?

Isn't it true that unemployment is at a high? And that the jobs that are left are lower paying than the ones there when he took office?

Have you missed the hundreds of fatalities in Iraq of our youg Americans? Have you not seen the photos of the Iraqi children maimed, bloodied and dismembered in your name and mine?

Am I wrong that we now have a deficit when before we had a surplus?

No. I'm not misinformed. Just dedicated to restoring some truth and dignity to our White House.

 

[BedKnobbery2]

Just to clarify my reaction, my disgust at the Cleland comments has nothing to do with anyone's opinion of the man. It has to do with defining him, and accusing the man himself of defining himself, based solely on his disabilities.

Think for a moment if something along the same lines had been said about, say, Colin Powell.....how would people here react if someone said he is where he solely by cashing in on the fact that he is black? Think that might raise a few hackles? bsnyder made the same exact characterization of Cleland, and BOTH are equaling demeaning and disgusting.

If you've (and I'm talking anyone here) have ever known, truly known, a person with a disability, you would know that the LAST way they define themselves is through their disability. And they suffer through the shortsightedness of others EVERY SINGLE DAMNED DAY OF THEIR LIVES. Assumptions are made about their intellect, their character, their ABILITIES all the time based on their disabilities. I've seen it happen, and I've seen how it cuts the person to the core when it does.

So when I see a man who has worked extraordinarily hard for what he believes in, who chooses to put himself out there and ACT rather than simple ponder, who has served his country both here and abroad, reduced to nothing more than a mouthpiece made of out the 3 stumps on his body, yes, it absolutely disgusts me. His ideas and convictions were not attacked--they were DISMISSED because of a bodily condition he had no control over.

And I stand by my assertion that that is a disgusting, vile, and shameful way to characterize another human being.

 

[doubletrouble_vb]

Forty eight pages so I'll just address the OP...

Yes something COULD come out to make me not vote for Kerry. However there is nothing that could come out about Kerry that would cause me to vote for George Bush. I'd still vote but I'd cast my vote for someone from column C. There ARE more than two parties in this country.

The scariest posts I see on here on the ones that either fail to address that their candidate could come down with something fatal (sex, drugs, guns, oil, money, alcohol, murder, improper actions as an elected official...) or the ones that are willing to vote for their guy no matter what he does. That is insane and irresponsible.

 

[dckiss]

Isn't it true that there were no WMD's?

At this time they have not found any WMD's. But that does not mean that they will never find any. However I do not believe that they will.

That Iraq had no connection to 911?

This also Appears to be the case, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that Our president said that they did. He just stated that they supported Terror with Iran and North Korea which they did.

Bush sold us a bill of goods based on doctored intelligence?

Actually this is false. Every major intell agency in the world said that he had the WMD's. This would include France and Germany who opposed the war. If you read the 9/11 report which was bi-partisen you will see that no one in the US doctored the intelligence. Also I will add that John Kerry has stated that if he knew than what he knows now he still would have committed our troops.

Isn't it true that unemployment is at a high?

This seems to depend on where you live. Not to mention I really don't believe if you are hell bent on getting a job you can't find one. Now you may have to move to do so but it can be done. And by the way I did this 4 yrs ago.

And that the jobs that are left are lower paying than the ones there when he took office?

This is another one of those stats that politicians play with. But I will point out that our President tried to put a terriff on steal to protect manufactureing jobs here in the US but it was judge to be against the law by the UN so it was repealed. Not to mention in my personal experience My wages have went up under Bush.... but to be far I could say the same thing about Clinton or Bush Sr

Have you missed the hundreds of fatalities in Iraq of our youg Americans?

No one has missed this and it is a terrible. However the casualties have been fairly low considering. Let me also ask you if you are conserned about the casualties in Bosnia??? This is where President Clinton stationed our troops or what about the guys we lost in Africa? Were you mad a President Clinton when they dragged our soldier behind that jeep? You shouldn't have been be mad at the bad guys.

Have you not seen the photos of the Iraqi children maimed, bloodied and dismembered in your name and mine?

Yes I saw the pictures and Yes some of those children were maimed by us fire accidently. But some of those children were maimed by Arabs from surrounding countrys. And what about the ones Saddam maimed? What about all the human rights violations Saddam did? There were Children Maimed in WWII but that doesn't mean it wasn't a just cause. Plus John Kerry would have still sent our troops as I previously stated.

Am I wrong that we now have a deficit when before we had a surplus?

Yes but my question to you is why is there a deficit? What Bush Policy casued this? What caused the surplus to begin with? These are very complicated questions that to be honest I don't have all the facts to answer do you?

No. I'm not misinformed. Just dedicated to restoring some truth and dignity to our White House.

Did you vote against President Clinton when he was useing the Oval Office for personal pleasures with Monica? Were you concerned with the Dignity of the white house then?
I can see how some people could disagree with our President but to say that there is no Dignity I don't understand that.

Are you concerned that John Kerry when he came back to the US from Nam met with communist and memebers of the North Viet.?
Are you concerned that his picture hangs in their museum as one of their hereos for his anti war efforts after the war? Are you concerned that He waffels on his statements all the time for instance he made a speech condemning suv owners and when it was pointed out that he owned a suv he stated "Thats Not Mine Its My Families". Are you concerned that when John Kerry Came back from Nam he was anti war but no he tries to paint him self a war hero? The Democrats messed up when they picked him as there cantidate they should have picked Edwards. Kerry will say anything to get elected even more than most politicians. I might have voted for Edwards I simply cannot vote for a traitor like Kerry. I have no problems whith Kerry's service record its what he did when he cam back that bothers me.

just my 5 Cents

Dan

 

[Lebjwb]

Originally posted by hooksmom
I'm very informed.

Bush is destroying our national security by destroying our international relations.

He has repeatedly lied to the American public

For personal gain, he has sent hundreds of young American men and women to their deaths, all the while inflicting the collateral damage of death and injury to innocent civilians, including women and children

He has taken us from surplus to deficit

He has eroded our civil rights

He has torpedoed our economy and destroyed the working and middle class by leading the nation to a time of terrible unemployment all the while shipping good jobs to other countries

He has rolled back environmental standards, putting our children at risk

That is all I need to know. He is unfit for office. We essentially get two choices--- Bush or Kerry. My vote for Kerry is a vote against Bush who has squandered his opportunity for leadership all the while endangering Americans and many others.

Outstanding! I totally agree.

 

[Lebjwb]

Originally posted by dckiss
Isn't it true that there were no WMD's?

At this time they have not found any WMD's. But that does not mean that they will never find any. However I do not believe that they will.

That Iraq had no connection to 911?

This also Appears to be the case, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that Our president said that they did. He just stated that they supported Terror with Iran and North Korea which they did.

Bush sold us a bill of goods based on doctored intelligence?

Actually this is false. Every major intell agency in the world said that he had the WMD's. This would include France and Germany who opposed the war. If you read the 9/11 report which was bi-partisen you will see that no one in the US doctored the intelligence. Also I will add that John Kerry has stated that if he knew than what he knows now he still would have committed our troops.

Isn't it true that unemployment is at a high?

This seems to depend on where you live. Not to mention I really don't believe if you are hell bent on getting a job you can't find one. Now you may have to move to do so but it can be done. And by the way I did this 4 yrs ago.

And that the jobs that are left are lower paying than the ones there when he took office?

This is another one of those stats that politicians play with. But I will point out that our President tried to put a terriff on steal to protect manufactureing jobs here in the US but it was judge to be against the law by the UN so it was repealed. Not to mention in my personal experience My wages have went up under Bush.... but to be far I could say the same thing about Clinton or Bush Sr

Have you missed the hundreds of fatalities in Iraq of our youg Americans?

No one has missed this and it is a terrible. However the casualties have been fairly low considering. Let me also ask you if you are conserned about the casualties in Bosnia??? This is where President Clinton stationed our troops or what about the guys we lost in Africa? Were you mad a President Clinton when they dragged our soldier behind that jeep? You shouldn't have been be mad at the bad guys.

Have you not seen the photos of the Iraqi children maimed, bloodied and dismembered in your name and mine?

Yes I saw the pictures and Yes some of those children were maimed by us fire accidently. But some of those children were maimed by Arabs from surrounding countrys. And what about the ones Saddam maimed? What about all the human rights violations Saddam did? There were Children Maimed in WWII but that doesn't mean it wasn't a just cause. Plus John Kerry would have still sent our troops as I previously stated.

Am I wrong that we now have a deficit when before we had a surplus?

Yes but my question to you is why is there a deficit? What Bush Policy casued this? What caused the surplus to begin with? These are very complicated questions that to be honest I don't have all the facts to answer do you?

No. I'm not misinformed. Just dedicated to restoring some truth and dignity to our White House.

Did you vote against President Clinton when he was useing the Oval Office for personal pleasures with Monica? Were you concerned with the Dignity of the white house then?
I can see how some people could disagree with our President but to say that there is no Dignity I don't understand that.

Are you concerned that John Kerry when he came back to the US from Nam met with communist and memebers of the North Viet.?
Are you concerned that his picture hangs in their museum as one of their hereos for his anti war efforts after the war? Are you concerned that He waffels on his statements all the time for instance he made a speech condemning suv owners and when it was pointed out that he owned a suv he stated "Thats Not Mine Its My Families". Are you concerned that when John Kerry Came back from Nam he was anti war but no he tries to paint him self a war hero? The Democrats messed up when they picked him as there cantidate they should have picked Edwards. Kerry will say anything to get elected even more than most politicians. I might have voted for Edwards I simply cannot vote for a traitor like Kerry. I have no problems whith Kerry's service record its what he did when he cam back that bothers me.

just my 5 Cents

Dan

When you can actually support this with facts let us know! Until then, stop wasting band width...pathetic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!