Just returned from Universal -

[Peter Pirate 2]

Chris, I hope you're not painting me as the 'rose colored glasses' type guy? That ship sailed a couple years ago.

Mr. Voice, I'm thrilled to hear that I may be way wrong about the HP attraction. It's the smartest thing Universal could do, IMO, but my question is why now? Whose calling the shots re: The Parks and why do they all of a sudden care?

I also agree with what Disney has become. It is obvious that marketing is the main function of the company. My Disney AP's have been reduced to Seasonal passes. Then there's the complete fiasco surrounding the once great dining and the DDP's, the supperbly underwhelming Studios name change and project announcements...I could get started on ESPN again as well, but I won't - but I'll say I wonder how they got so far up Tiger's you know what without him complaining???

Really Voice why do you still care? I mean I can't see any way out of this spiral (in any meaningful sense) and if you do see a positive scenerio please tell me so I can have a little optimism too.

 

[Uncleromulus]

Well-Potter is certainly "in" now,tho I must say I haven't read any of the books and saw only that first movie. I wonder how long, though, the "fad" will last??
Will Harry have any staying power???

 

[Wick]

"The sad thing is that so many people see this as an "us vs. them" thing."

It was bound to happen when Disney stopped being a creative company and turned itself into a lifestyle brand.

How does this relate to the issue of "us vs. them"?

I understand your position on the Disney-consumerist-ethos. But Disney turning itself into (as you call it) a lifestyle brand doesn't connect with the perspective taken by those who see the WDW-US/IOA relationship as "us vs. them."

If anything, I would cite Universal as the guilty party of creating the "us vs. them" atmosphere. I can't tell you how many times I've been in US/IOA and have heard CMs take shots at "the rat." And from what I understand, they're encouraged to do this. The sentiments are quietly engrained even in some attractions (I can't remember exactly, but there is one US attraction where the queue has a short pre-show in which the three little pigs get locked up and pinocchio is hung upside down in a box.. perhaps someone can name this for me). It's little things like that which create the us vs. them tension.

 

[Metro West]

If anything, I would cite Universal as the guilty party of creating the "us vs. them" atmosphere. I can't tell you how many times I've been in US/IOA and have heard CMs take shots at "the rat." And from what I understand, they're encouraged to do this. The sentiments are quietly engrained even in some attractions (I can't remember exactly, but there is one US attraction where the queue has a short pre-show in which the three little pigs get locked up and pinocchio is hung upside down in a box.. perhaps someone can name this for me). It's little things like that which create the us vs. them tension.

That would be Shrek 4-D.

 

[Another Voice]

Whose calling the shots re: The Parks and why do they all of a sudden care?

General Electric does.

Universal has gone through a lot owners in the recent decades; the parks were always just “one of those side businesses” that came with the purchase. Universal has been purchased for its studio, for its music business and lately for its television production operation.

When NBC purchased Universal, the idea was to sell off the park to raise a bit of cash. But NBC’s parent company – General Electric – has had a long experience with theme parks through their association with Disney. They told NBC to wait and look at the business further.

Much to NBC’s surprise, they found the same base ecomonics that power Disney – well run theme parks can be a fountain of cash and a huge marketing machine. So after years of neglect, NBC is going to try and make a go of the parks. When it comes down to it, a major theme park attraction costs about the same as a Hollywood blockbuster…and if Universal can waste $200 million on Evan Almighty, it can certainly afford to spend a big more on Harry Potter.

Really Voice why do you still care?

Because The Walt Disney Company isn’t Disney anymore, but talking to certain writers and producers and filmmakers, it’s obvious that the spirit of Walt Disney still drives the best parts of Hollywood. I want to learn about what made Real Disney special so that I and others can carry on.

But Disney turning itself into (as you call it) a lifestyle brand doesn't connect with the perspective taken by those who see the WDW-US/IOA relationship as "us vs. them."

Universal threatens Disney. It’s not a business competition – it’s just that the Universal parks show there is nothing special about Walt Disney World that others can’t recreate. People don't want to hear that, they've invested their self esteem into their association with Disney.

You’ll read all kinds of postings about how “My DH and I just feel so magical just being on property”. That’s the lifestyle brand issue. Disney has sold the concept that just consuming anything labeled “Disney’s” is a magical experience. When people can have that powerful an emotional attachment to nothing but a brand name, well, the lesser parts of human nature take hold. Universal chides “the rat” out of envy, Disney fans bash Universal out of moral superiority.

 

[Wick]

You’ll read all kinds of postings about how “My DH and I just feel so magical just being on property”. That’s the lifestyle brand issue.

I agree with you, but I don't necessarily think it can be attributed to the Eisner-era and the corporate Disney of today. One could argue that this lifestyle brand issue goes back years ago, manifesting itself in situations analogous to when Florida approached Disney to help fund a maglev train to run out of MCO. As the story goes, Disney was on board for this project but later dropped it as they didn't want to make any other stops besides WDW. Disney being a lifestyle brand as it pertains to WDW is nothing new and can be traced back to Walt himself in the original EPCOT plans or even when he asserted that "Disney is not my name any more, it is something else."

Whether or not the consumerist-branding idea arises in things like a couple feeling magical just being on property, I don't know. Couldn't it be that people actually feel good being somewhere because of the quality and not due to some act of corporate brainwashing?

 

[Another Voice]

but I don't necessarily think it can be attributed to the Eisner-era and the corporate Disney of today.

It was a very deliberate and intentional business decision made by the company almost twenty years ago. A lot of time and effort has been put into it - everything the renaming of anything under the sun to be "Disney's" to the projects like DVC and the recent 'Adventures by Disney'. It's no mistake that a former big shot from Nike - the ultimate company for selling image - now runs Disney's consumer products.

And are you really telling me that people staying at Pop Century feel "magical" because of the quality? Notice how quickly the "Disney" statues went up after opening and all the negative reviews. And those giant "Gateways" into WDW are designed specifically to tell you to "begin feeling magical.....now!". Disney knows what they're doing when it comes to selling nothing. How many focus groups do you think it took to come up with something like "Remember...Wishes Come True!"

 

[Wick]

And are you really telling me that people staying at Pop Century feel "magical" because of the quality?

Granted, Pop Century cannot compete with deluxes like Contemporary, AKL, Poly, etc., in terms of quality. But having stayed at said resorts, including Pop, I can tell you first hand that it is by no means devoid of the classic Disney touch. Sure, you may disagree with the aesthetics and theming; you may even be uncomfortable with the idea of staying at a value resort. But when compared to the other off-site options, I assure you the Disney touch is there. Suffice it to say that children don't know the difference in square footage or so-called cheap design. The magic is there for them and subsequently the families, and that's all that really matters.

And those giant "Gateways" into WDW are designed specifically to tell you to "begin feeling magical.....now!". Disney knows what they're doing when it comes to selling nothing.

So what would you have them do? Not mark off where the property begins? Something tells me that if they didn't have those gateways, you'd be complaining about Disney being too cheap to build a formal entrance.

How many focus groups do you think it took to come up with something like "Remember...Wishes Come True!"

Not too sure, ask Walt it was his idea

 

[Another Voice]

But having stayed at said resorts, including Pop, I can tell you first hand that it is by no means devoid of the classic Disney touch.

Exactly lifestyle - move the exact building a few miles north on I-4 and replace the giant Mickey Phone with an statue of King Kong and you'd be screaming about how horrible Universal is for shoving such a cheap and tacky motel onto Orlando. There's nothing "Disney" about sixty feet fiberglass spelling out "Do The Funky Chicken" - except what the marketing department tells you is Disney.

"Disney touch" used to mean the way in which Disney designers would use film-making techniques to bring a sense of "heightened reality" or "fantasy" into real world buildings. Now "Disney Touches" means plastering copywrited character designs on square buildings. The former is art, the later is Taco Bell decoration.

So what would you have them do? Not mark off where the property begins?

Worked for more than thirty years. The idea was to give the guests a seperation from the real world. The drive through the woods made Disney seem miles and mile from the rest of Orlando, they wanted you to actaully know you were travelling somewhere.

The arches tell you is that its okay to start spending money now. They are a barrier, part of the "comfort" that you're supposed to feel at WDW - Mickey's invisable force field will bar all but the kind, the good and anyone who can't afford the price. The arches were designed to give the same impression that the gates to an exclusive gated community gives -the feeling that bad things are "magically" excluded so that good (and rich) people can feel safe.

 

[Disneycrazymom]

I am enjoying this discussion.

I am most likely the typical audience Disney is trying to get into the resort. Middle, maybe upper middle class. 2 kids and we travel several times a year. I up to this year I have insisted on at least a few days at Disney with the kids every year. For several years we spent 9+ days on site and in the parks. But the rest of the family wanted to try some other kind of vacation. The last 2 summers our "big trip" has been a Royal Caribbean cruise. In 06 we still spent 3 days on site and did the parks but this year we stayed on site at Universal instead.

Here is the surprise for me and what I think might be "trouble" for Disney. I didn't "feel" any different at Universal. Is it because Universal has better service? No not really. I think it is more about Disney's being less than it once was. They both are good compared to some vacation destinations but Disney is not the top of the line I expected in the past.

My post was to see what others thought. I have no financial interest in either park. I only see them as a vacation away from the real world. When I choose that for my family I want value, service and a little adventure.

I don't think my finding other vacation options will hurt Disney but I also know that the more people like me that go and don't come home wanting to get back as soon as possible will hurt the bottom line eventually. Will we go back? I certainly hope so! Do I have a trip planned for this year? no. This is the first year in 10 that I have not had one in the works. Our trip after the cruise last Aug 06 was fun but not enough so that we went again this summer.

 

[Another Voice]

Really Voice why do you still care? I mean I can't see any way out of this spiral (in any meaningful sense) and if you do see a positive scenario please tell me so I can have a little optimism too.

Thinking about it some more, maybe because I’m still just naïve enough to believe that things can be turned around…but we’re the ones who will have to do it.

Frankly, the people running Disney today neither care about nor even like the theme parks. They think they are a bad business for a bunch of silly people, most of whom they would rather not even deal with. Their dislike for the parks finds its way into to there management – there is no management investment into making the parks more successful; there is no concern or respect for guests of the parks. We’re simply just saps handing over our money.

But Disney management are business people. They are interested in making money. Ultimately we’re the ones with all the power.

Mr. Pirate, I’m sure you remember “ye olden days” when the boards were filled with praise for Michael Eisner and dissenting voices were few and far between. Yet over time even the highest levels of Disney finally saw what was happening. At Disneyland, a few voices tried to bring notice to the staleness creeping into Disneyland and its general disrepair. Those voices grew to a chorus and, as attendance fell and the new park was shunned, Disney was forced to respond. And now today, Disneyland glistens under fresh paint, cleaner walkways and even freshened attractions.

There’s no reason why the same thing can’t happen at WDW.

Bit by bit it needs to work. Making reservations for my next trip I was asked if I wanted the Disney Dining Plan. I said no, because the quality of food service on property is so low I expect to eat sit down meals elsewhere. The res agent asked if I wanted Disney Magical Express. I said no, I intended to rent a car this trip – both for meals and because the internal transportation is so bad. When asked if I wanted a length of stay pass, I said no because I intend to spend time at Universal and Orlando rather than half-day parks like Animal Kingdom and Disney/MGM/Pixar/ABC/Hollywood/Toluca Lake Studios. At the same time, I am spending more money to stay at a real WDW resort than one of their cheap motels because I want them to know that is what the demand is for.

Slowly, I know others will act this way. More and more people will find the value of WDW declining – just like Disneyland -- they will visit less frequently and spend less each trip. Restaurants will go empty except for those that only care about eating for free, shops will be well stocked with unsold merchandise. Each morning management will awaken to see the line up cars heading north on I-4 – and all the children in the parks wearing their Harry Potter t-shirts.

There is a hope that someone at Disney will wake up, even for a brief period, and try to fix things even if their only motivation is greed. I know, it’s not a lot to hope for, but it’s all we have left.

 

[larry_poppins]

Or you can do what I do. Don't spend your money on inferior product like WDW. Put it in the bank, save, invest. When you have enough go to Tokyo Disney and have a real vacation at reasonable prices. Hotels may be higher near the resort, but food, merchandise, and tickets are not. A 4 day ticket for Tokyo Disney is around $150.

 

[Barbers2005]

Or you can do what I do. Don't spend your money on inferior product like WDW. Put it in the bank, save, invest. When you have enough go to Tokyo Disney and have a real vacation at reasonable prices. Hotels may be higher near the resort, but food, merchandise, and tickets are not. A 4 day ticket for Tokyo Disney is around $150.

Lol...it's not exactly "reasonably priced" when it costs $800 more pp just to get there.

 

[JawsFan]

I have never understood why people feel disloyal when they are fans of either Disney or Universal and they take a trip to "The Dark Side".....I mean come on...Orlando is all about theme parks and it's no fun if you don't experiment with all of them Personally i love all the Disney parks, Universal & IOA equally

 

[KMovies]

For what it is worth

Attendance at WDW has been going UP

Attendance at US / IOA has been going DOWN

Both are good resorts.

If US / IOA is doing things right (cheap APs, $85 7-day ticket) and WDW not (higher prices, Value resorts) - the results show otherwise.

US spent a boat load of money on IOA; which was all good and fine. But then they stopped spending. It may have made more sense to open with a little less then add back to the park.

Disney Sea - same situation - built fantastic park, but stopped and attendance began to decline. After 4 years, they finally added a new attraction (Raging Spirits and then in year 5 Tower of Terror).

 

[dwheaton]

This is a great discussion. I haven't been to Universal since I was a kid, but my wife and I will be doing a week off-site in January. We'll be splitting seven days between Disney and Universal. I purchased the $85 tickets to Universal, which are a great value, and had to fork out $260 for six-day passes to Disney (same price as five-day). Even though Disney might have a slight edge in quality, that's quite a difference in prize. Yes, Universal only has two parks, but that's still a really good deal.

I'll have to wait and see what I think of Universal before deciding. I've been a big Disney fan since I was a kid, but have grown frustrated with the constant price increases and the shoving of fake "magic" down your throat. I'm 31 and love amusement parks, but don't care about the Year of a Million Dreams, Pirates, Princesses, etc. I still expect to have a great time at Disney, but hope the stories of diminishing returns aren't true.

Finally, we stayed at Pop Century for a five-day visit in 2005, and it was a good experience. However, I'm looking forwarding to relaxing in a comfortable off-site villa for a price that's better than Pop. We're going to rent a car, and I expect the vacation will be more relaxed and still "magical." I understand the allure of staying on-site, but Disney's coming close to pricing us out of doing it. They need to realize that many people just can't afford to drop thousands of dollars for a week-long stay. Of course, as long as people continue to pack the parks, they'll keep raising prices. Too bad. I still can't wait for the trip, though. I'm looking forward to both Disney and Universal. Should be great!

 

[Metro West]

This is a great discussion. I haven't been to Universal since I was a kid, but my wife and I will be doing a week off-site in January. We'll be splitting seven days between Disney and Universal. I purchased the $85 tickets to Universal, which are a great value, and had to fork out $260 for six-day passes to Disney (same price as five-day). Even though Disney might have a slight edge in quality, that's quite a difference in prize. Yes, Universal only has two parks, but that's still a really good deal.

I'll have to wait and see what I think of Universal before deciding. I've been a big Disney fan since I was a kid, but have grown frustrated with the constant price increases and the shoving of fake "magic" down your throat. I'm 31 and love amusement parks, but don't care about the Year of a Million Dreams, Pirates, Princesses, etc. I still expect to have a great time at Disney, but hope the stories of diminishing returns aren't true.

Finally, we stayed at Pop Century for a five-day visit in 2005, and it was a good experience. However, I'm looking forwarding to relaxing in a comfortable off-site villa for a price that's better than Pop. We're going to rent a car, and I expect the vacation will be more relaxed and still "magical." I understand the allure of staying on-site, but Disney's coming close to pricing us out of doing it. They need to realize that many people just can't afford to drop thousands of dollars for a week-long stay. Of course, as long as people continue to pack the parks, they'll keep raising prices. Too bad. I still can't wait for the trip, though. I'm looking forward to both Disney and Universal. Should be great!

Great post! I hope you have a fun filled trip!

 

[jcodespoti]

Universal was fun when I went. But If I want that experience I'll head to Six flags which is an hour away and have the same thing for a lot less. The rides are the same...just different names.

Joe in CT

P.S. Universal promotes the "us vs. them" attitude...have you seen their commercials?...they're good.

 

[ChrisFL]

Universal was fun when I went. But If I want that experience I'll head to Six flags which is an hour away and have the same thing for a lot less. The rides are the same...just different names.

I'd hate to break the news to you, but that's entirely untrue

 

[EUROPACL]

I'd hate to break the news to you, but that's entirely untrue

x2...I have to question if jcodespoti even went to Universal if he thinks that.