Just back - Monorail rumor

I guess that means as time goes by there will be more appearance at Disney by Donald Duct (tape).

This just in:


Disney has decided to change the naming convention for the monorails. Instead of going by colors, The Monorails will begin to get names such as "Donald", "Daisy", "Huey", "Dewey", and "Louie". Rumor has it that these changes will happen as the monorails are 'refreshed' using their new Duct tape process.

While details have yet to fully emerge, It's believed that these refreshes will be cheap enough to qualify Scrooge McDuct as a potential name as well.
 
I agree they need to do more, but it's not like they are doing nothing. They made the decision to cut operating hours of monorails so bus bar can be replaced, patches can be done, and trains can be worked on. They took a lot of heat from a lot of people for that, but they stuck to their guns because it's the right thing to do. So it's not ALL gloom and doom for them.
 
Um...

I think you forgot something..... They could care less about the DVC Attendance.... DVC is guaranteed major upfront money in their pockets now. They probably could care less about your future attendance since the Maint Fee's cover property upkeep, and they just got your $15k-$30k+ from your buy in......which they can then either resell to you or someone else in a couple decades when your lease expires. Just look at the cheap furnishings they threw into BLT when it opened, it's obvious they aren't spending that buy-in money on decking the place out.


IMO.... I kinda think DVC is just another part of the problem with WDW over the past few years. They continue to build capacity with DVC rooms, obviously taking away from the regular guests they used to pack their regular resorts with, then complain about how they can't fill the regular resorts. Then of course, they pretty much use the DVC income to just pad their bottom line, without any of that money going back into parks and resorts, even to the extent of helping to upgrade or refurb the resorts or services which the DVC resorts are adding too. If you think about it, The money they made/will make off BLT and the new Grand Floridian resort could easily cover a major overhaul of the monorail system which those new DVC properties are heavily utilizing. Instead, They'll continue to neglect the monorail system, while actively using it's existence to sell BLT, GF-DVC, and even the inevitable Poly-DVC. I also doubt we'd see much of a MK Boat capacity increase at GF or Poly to account for the increased guest capacity at those resorts when you factor the inclusion of a new DVC wing. [BLT I'll be willing to conceed that an argument could be made that MK transportation capacity didn't need to be added due to the walking path]

First, I think you are completely agreeing with the previous post...but yet your opening is a disagreement...i'm confused.

Is this that crazy thing called "sarcasm" at work?:rotfl::banana:

I digress...

I agree with your comments...especially the bold ones.

While its not quite so black and white - as in they do very much care if the DVC is used because a lot of the "trade off" they have given with the timeshare program is that their return on the room revenue will decrease over the years BUT the customer will keep throwing gate, food and (as always) especially MERCH money at them. So they do want them filled, rented, used (obviously).

Fortunately for them...they almost always fill up. Yes...even Saratoga...by the time the day of check in rolls around. So they are riding the dvc cash cow and nothing - short of global economic and social meltdown (stay tuned on that) can get old bessie back into her barn.

And I know it...still bought it, but know it. The reality is that i know they are screwing me and the rest of their customers as a whole with the expansion of the system. It's true...they can use it as a shield to cover their bottom-line against blowback for decreasing their services and expenditures. But at the same time - there are four components to every disney trip:

lodging
gate
food and bev
and merch ( we buy ZERO...but know that we're the exception, not the norm)

and dvc puts a huge dent into the first. As time goes on, you don't give a rats patuey about your upfront sale price or - frankly - your dues. you just show up to the "nicer" hotels with your family or friends like a fat cat. It works like a charm.
and even I - who sees the devil working behind the scenes and shouts about the slide - knows that the DVC works ridiculously well to get me.

But back to the monorail - you hit it on the head: absolutely no pennies from DVC go to its maintenance/renovation/expansion....not one. But when you tour, oh boy is it a great selling point. But DVC does not (most cases) enhance the property of the "mixed use" hotels - it just puts stress on it. At animal kingdom, the distance created by the animal habitats forced them to add a new restaurant and junk shop - ok...that takes a little stress off. But not enough to cover the new rooms and thousands of occupants.

Look at what they did:
Wilderness lodge: no new services
Beach Club: no new services
DAK: one restaurant, one shop
Bay lake: one new lounge, renovation of existing restaurants that went pretty badly off the track...or should i say: WAVE. And a big fat expansion of Chef Extortions at the expense of a better than average sit-down formerly in its place.
Grand Floridian: no new services

So it is just shoehorning/maxing out what they've had for decades.
And it sucks.

When (not if) the polynesian block goes in...they will more than likely do nothing again.

But the people will come.

The fact is that DVC is detrimental - because there's no way to realistically fight it.
 
First, I think you are completely agreeing with the previous post...but yet your opening is a disagreement...i'm confused.

Is this that crazy thing called "sarcasm" at work?:rotfl::banana:

I digress...

I agree with your comments...especially the bold ones.

I agreed with your overall post. I'm not so much convinced that they care what you do with the DVC ownership you have after you've payed your way into the system. That was my disagreement.... where their concern ended.

While its not quite so black and white - as in they do very much care if the DVC is used because a lot of the "trade off" they have given with the timeshare program is that their return on the room revenue will decrease over the years BUT the customer will keep throwing gate, food and (as always) especially MERCH money at them. So they do want them filled, rented, used (obviously).

Fortunately for them...they almost always fill up. Yes...even Saratoga...by the time the day of check in rolls around. So they are riding the dvc cash cow and nothing - short of global economic and social meltdown (stay tuned on that) can get old bessie back into her barn.

I'll admit I'm not totally familiar with all the details on DVC's operation... so I may have a few things wrong. BUT....

I'm still not convinced they care if the DVC members actually use their DVC Points after the purchase. why? Several reasons.

1. Disney can always use the inventory which DVC members have paid for to sell at rack rates to the public as Disney Deluxe Villa's. (With the timeshare I own offsite, inventory not reserved by owners 90days out can start being pulled into the management company's retail rentals inventory....to a set limit)

2. If the unit sits empty, Disney isn't out any money since you've already paid for it, and it's upkeep. Compared to if you didn't own DVC and didn't make a trip that year, Disney doesn't make anything. With DVC owners, they still get money from you when you don't make the trip.

3. And if you decide to unload your DVC? With the right of first refusal, Disney has been able to regain control of contracts for much less than they sold it to you in the first place, then turn around and resell it back to the next sucker at a huge markup.


Now, I won't say that Disney wants the rooms empty, but I am saying that Disney doesn't really care one way or the other. They've got your DVC buy-in money already, and they get your annual dues to help pay for the upkeep of their property. If you use it, Great.... more $$ for them from other purchases onsite. if you don't? they still got something out of you.

and thanks to that whole irrational value justification that seems so prevelant when it comes to all things Disney (Such as the 'i'll save money with an AP'..... which often tempts you to spend more time at Disney than you originally planned because 'it's free' since you aren't buying tickets again), they know you are probably a captured customer for at least the next couple years anyways, so why bother continuing to put effort into your business?


I guess I see it like this. You can tell where their priorities are by where they spend their money. We haven't seen a lot of money spent on the parks, or even the staff... but we see a ton of money spent on DVC construction [easy profits], advertising aimed at first time or 'magical' experiences for those who don't make regular trips, and a ton of special offers to get people into their overpriced rack rate hotel rooms. Very seldom do we see any money spent on things that would be a real value to those who make regular trips to Disney, such as DVC members. The special events we do see offered (just like with D23), often are exclusive type events which require a large fee for the privilege of attending. I honestly wouldn't even say the DVC discount on AP's would qualify as appreciation since that $100 discount is much more likely to get you to spend another $15k on more DVC points so that you can "take advantage" of your AP. If it was really something designed to get you to use your DVC ownership, or to show appreciation for your purchase, Then I don't see why they wouldn't offer even a small DVC Discount off the gate price of regular tickets (Even if it's only 5% which wouldn't even counter most of the annual price increases).
 

TooTall...


well...its a little more complicated than that.

First, in reality, DVC doesn't often "pullback" rooms off their inventory and sell them through CRO.
Contractually, they pretty much keep them available for the DVC...because remember: when you buy points - you sign a contract that you buy an actually percentage of a specific unit ( i think i'm like 297A at saratoga). And buy florida law, a certain number of dvc rooms are always available at rack.

so that's not really a parachute for them when it comes to empty rooms.

Second, if you factor in the upfront point cost, the annual maintenance fee, and a reasonably safe rate of inflation n the maintenance fees...you can figure out approximately what an actual nights stay at a DVC room costs you when averaged over the life of the contract...which for most of the existing rooms are through 2054...with some ending in 2042 (boardwalk, old key, vero and hilton head) and others 2060 and beyond (animal kingdom lodge and after)

I do the calculation every now and then and it comes out to the same thing time and again = about $160 per night at the price we paid. It's actually lower - cause i always overestimate the inflation on the maintenance fees.

So i can purchase a studio room at Beach Club Villas ( i actually already HAVE purchased the majority of it because of the upfront costs) for about $160 a night in the lowest season.

The Rack Rate for a Studio at Beach Club Villas is $345 in the cheapest season
The Room Rate at the Beach Club is $335 at the cheapest season.

There in lies the "deal" that disney concedes. And the disparity will get worse over time.

So they do allow you to get a substantial longterm discount from their lodging rates...but that is with the understanding that you are coming...and you are spending...and you are buying.
And then when you get tired of it, your descendents are coming, and spending, and buying.
And perhaps even theirs are too.

So they definitely care if you're there....the money to be made is off of full DVC rooms...not empty ones.

They're already long spent what i gave them up front.
 
I agree they need to do more, but it's not like they are doing nothing. They made the decision to cut operating hours of monorails so bus bar can be replaced, patches can be done, and trains can be worked on. They took a lot of heat from a lot of people for that, but they stuck to their guns because it's the right thing to do. So it's not ALL gloom and doom for them.




Unless you are a monorail resort guest who does not prefer the bus system....especially hot months.

I'm not sure I would be too thrilled to pay Grand Floridian costs, arrive and be told we will be enjoying the magical scenic route on the bus.

They managed to maintain the monorail for 40 years without cutbacks in service. So why now....what are they saving $$$$$ on? Staff or maintenance.
 
Ok, bear with me. Yea, off topic again.

DH and I have talked and worried about changes in maintenance since the big staff cuts a few years ago. DH manages critical systems (not maintenance) and he has watched as standard proceedures have changed to "as needed". How much of that is happening in safety maintenance. Old-overdue for replacement monorails, perhaps?

I have never written for fear if being melted by the.....you-know-who's. However,

Yesterday I had a long drive and was listening to an hour interview of the author of "Attention all Passengers"......can I say that here?

Did you know that since 911 all but one US airline has outsourced it's aircraft maintenance to China, Mexico and El Salvador with Un-licensed FAA mechanics. The cost savings to the airlines is significant. That's just one topic of the book. Problem is, even though the aircraft maintenance is signed off as approved in China, Mexico and El Salvador, the jets ate returning with increasing problems requiring more work here to repair or replace. Wouldn't you be happier getting on your next flight knowing your aircraft mechanic had an FAA license to work on the equipment AND was oversceen by an FAa inspector as done in the past?

DH and I have wondered......what is Disney cutting too close?


Gentlemen (ladies too) , light your flame throwers.
 
Ok, bear with me. Yea, off topic again.

DH and I have talked and worried about changes in maintenance since the big staff cuts a few years ago. DH manages critical systems (not maintenance) and he has watched as standard proceedures have changed to "as needed". How much of that is happening in safety maintenance. Old-overdue for replacement monorails, perhaps?

I have never written for fear if being melted by the.....you-know-who's. However,

Yesterday I had a long drive and was listening to an hour interview of the author of "Attention all Passengers"......can I say that here?

Did you know that since 911 all but one US airline has outsourced it's aircraft maintenance to China, Mexico and El Salvador with Un-licensed FAA mechanics. The cost savings to the airlines is significant. That's just one topic of the book. Problem is, even though the aircraft maintenance is signed off as approved in China, Mexico and El Salvador, the jets ate returning with increasing problems requiring more work here to repair or replace. Wouldn't you be happier getting on your next flight knowing your aircraft mechanic had an FAA license to work on the equipment AND was oversceen by an FAa inspector as done in the past?

DH and I have wondered......what is Disney cutting too close?


Gentlemen (ladies too) , light your flame throwers.
I'll have my seat cushion at the ready then next time I fly
 
TooTall...


well...its a little more complicated than that.

First, in reality, DVC doesn't often "pullback" rooms off their inventory and sell them through CRO.
Contractually, they pretty much keep them available for the DVC...because remember: when you buy points - you sign a contract that you buy an actually percentage of a specific unit ( i think i'm like 297A at saratoga). And buy florida law, a certain number of dvc rooms are always available at rack.

so that's not really a parachute for them when it comes to empty rooms.

Out of curiosity.... I wonder what the percentage of rooms that are filled long in advance by DVC owners and point renters? Timeshares are odd thing. I understand the system (I own offsite), so the deeds (or leases in DVC's case) to state that the owners own and have the ability to use the parts of the resort that were sold to the public. BUT.... the reality is there are certain aspects that do end up making things a bit more complicated which will result in either empty rooms, or DVC basically reselling the room (either thru CRO, or allowing owners to 'rent' points directly from them). Not every owner is going to make it to a DVC property every year.... so a certain percentage of of the ownership interest is wasted from people who didn't use their points before they expired.

then you also have the DVC owners who decide it utilize their points for other things, like Disney Cruises, etc... which means Disney gets control over those points for that use year.

And that's without even getting into the whole banking thing.


As for the average cost of room vs. rack rates, True, Disney may not necessarily be making as much profit over the life of the contract, but they aren't losing money either. First off, Most of the resort amenities people associate with the resort, are actually part of the hotel the resort is associated with. (off the top of my head, there are only 2 standalone DVC resorts...OKW [the original] and SSR... right?). As such, many of the maintenance and upgrade concerns for those resorts are covered by the hotel's budget, not the Timeshare resort budget.

Also, Disney isn't going to lose any money directly off the DVC membership. Your Annual Fees are tied directly into the budget for the resort. Upkeep, refurbs, even staffing, are all covered in the budget which is then broken up and spread out across the entire ownership base of that resort. I'd honestly be surprised if there wasn't also a line-item in that budget for Disney's Management services for also keeping tabs and staffing the reservations at the resorts, on top of all the services which Disney is basically contracting with itself to handle. (I know with my timeshare ownership, I actually get a copy of the resort's total budget, with a breakdown of what the total cost-per-point on maintance fees will be. Since DVC is a lease however, I don't know if they follow the same procedures).

To be perfectly honest, Comparing your DVC cost per year to the rack rate isn't even really fair. While the DVC cost may better reflect to actual costs to Disney for the room and resort, the Rack rates are not only going to have to include Disney's costs for the promotions they use to fill that room (so include the cost of the DDP for everyone in the room if you paid out of pocket), The payback for the cost of building the resort in the first place [with interest.... DVC resort construction is covered in the buy-in, so technically they are paid off much quicker than the regular hotels/resorts], but also the required profit margins for the 'Resorts' side of Parks&Resorts that they need to make the investors happy on Wall street.

Which kinda brings me to another intereting facet that if it's not already impacting DVC, It will eventually..... Disney's tendency of late (and wall street in general) to be more beholden to the stockholder and instant profit, than long term viability or investment in the future. DVC is under the "Parks and Resorts" banner, but it is it's own profit center/division within that group. Because of the way Timeshare's are built/designed, The general operating costs of the resort once they have ended the sale phase are covered under the annual dues paid by the owners. There really isn't a lot [or any] profit margin there. That means that all the profits for the Timeshare (DVC) division are gained thru the sales phase. Construction, Sales/marketing costs, and all profit are gained from selling the inventory available in the resort you built. Once you sell out that inventory, you have absolutely no way to make any real money, unless you build someplace new to sell. In a way, it could almost be considered pyramid schemey in it's operation, and in WDW's case, it's also somewhat parasitic. DVC is making a TON of money for the company right now, and that's why they continue to sell it. The problem is that in order to continue making that money, they need to keep building properties. If you look at DVC's attempts at Stand alone properties, it's pretty obvious that the draw is pretty much their park-based properties, so by both necessity and ease of sales, They continue to build around the parks.

This is leading to some GREAT profits for DVC, and Parks&Resorts at this time. But.... The downside is that their customer base is largely guests who currently stay in the onsite hotels/resorts. [people wishing to travel outside Disney, there are better/cheaper timeshare options. Even in the orlando area, there are cheaper/better options than DVC for a home-base to visit the area attractions.... so DVC's best customers are going to be that 'I can only stay onsite!' crowd]. So the end result is that DVC is going to end up hurting the profitability of the Florida parks at some point. There is no way around this. [and might even also help explain the rack rate increases way beyond the rate of inflation]. You are taking away the onsite hotel/resort guest who are paying to stay nightly onsite over the long term, for the short term profits. There will come a point where DVC will have overbuilt, just like the surrounding Orlando resort area already has experienced. This will cause dropping sales since they won't be able to maintain the same level of sales they have managed for quite awhile. So sometime in the future, inevitably, Disney will see a significant drop off in Park and Resorts profits as a direct result of the major DVC profits they are raking in now. [Which will also mean they'd have to manage more money from surviving profit centers, such as higher ticket prices, higher food/merch profit margins, and even higher profit margins on the rack rate of rooms.]

I also wouldn't be totally surprised if we started seeing DVC Annual fees get a significant bump around this time as well. We've seen other non-Disney timeshares have their Maintenance Fees jump once the sales phase has ended as the Developer ended up subsidizing part of the Resort's operation/maintenance in order to improve their ability to sell their inventory. Since DVC is also locked into many Disney Services, you could see Disney start charging the resort more for those services in order to make more money from the resort's guest/owners. (Services such as Disney Transportation, Mousekeeping, Reservations, and even Front Desk services).


Then again...... Since Disney is doing Leases, maybe they just plan to maintain profitability in the future by reselling the intentory they already built... :confused3


Unless you are a monorail resort guest who does not prefer the bus system....especially hot months.

I'm not sure I would be too thrilled to pay Grand Floridian costs, arrive and be told we will be enjoying the magical scenic route on the bus.

They managed to maintain the monorail for 40 years without cutbacks in service. So why now....what are they saving $$$$$ on? Staff or maintenance.


Well, There are a couple recent factors which I can see causing more trouble with the system vs. the past.

1. With the increasing crowds, longer hours, and EMH, Disney has been running the trains longer and harder over the course of a year than they did in the past. With train to the barn cycle time, during the busiest times of year the system may only have 2-3 hours of downtime a night.

2. The current trainsets is already older than the first gen trainsets.


This is on top of any cutbacks that were made.
 
I've been following this thread and it's concerning to hear about these things.
I read through the thread. I couldn't find any actual evidence to suggest that all the handwringing is based on much of anything.
 
with a total of 6 disney resort locations on line at the time....

now they have what? 22?

my point being that there is inherently much more on property traffic to use the monorails during their stays...not to say they should go ahead and run the trains through the dolphin :lol:

One thing to consider:

When staying on property, and NOT at an MK Monorail resort...it's far more efficient to take a bus to the MK than it is to drive to the MK parking lot and hop the monorail/ferry.

That isn't going to eliminate the increase in traffic brought on by the greater number of resorts...but it does mitigate it some.

Of course...that still doesn't "forgive" Disney for continuing to run trains past their projected life span....
 
I can also recall that in order to board the Resort beam you couldn't just be a day-guest (you know... unless you had an AP).

As long as the monorail resorts have had dining destinations, you've been able to ride the resort monorail (even as a day guest) to those resorts.
 
Um...

I think you forgot something..... They could care less about the DVC Attendance.... DVC is guaranteed major upfront money in their pockets now. They probably could care less about your future attendance since the Maint Fee's cover property upkeep, and they just got your $15k-$30k+ from your buy in......which they can then either resell to you or someone else in a couple decades when your lease expires. Just look at the cheap furnishings they threw into BLT when it opened, it's obvious they aren't spending that buy-in money on decking the place out.

Just to be clear:

FOUR (and somewhat close to five) decades (for BLT, AKV). Five decades for anything new coming.

[BLT I'll be willing to conceed that an argument could be made that MK transportation capacity didn't need to be added due to the walking path]

And the fact they actually demolished a wing of the Contemp to build BLT...so they substracted hotel capicity to add (granted, with some increase...depending on how full those villas are) DVC capacity. Probably not zero sum...but not as much of an actual increase in bodies as you might think.
 
Look at what they did:
Wilderness lodge: no new services
Beach Club: no new services
DAK: one restaurant, one shop
Bay lake: one new lounge, renovation of existing restaurants that went pretty badly off the track...or should i say: WAVE. And a big fat expansion of Chef Extortions at the expense of a better than average sit-down formerly in its place.
Grand Floridian: no new services

Agree with much of the above..but don't forget the pool expansions/creations that went into some of the mixed use resorts. Those are probably amongst the most used "services" at the resorts, so probably bear mentioning.

Oh, and Kidani added an additional arcade and health club.

My pet peeve with Kidani: No addiitional CS place..which means trucking over to the Mara more than I'd like to. Sanaa is a nice addition, don't get me wrong, but I would have rather trucked to the main lodge for Boma or Jikos and had the extra CS at Kidani.
 
1. Disney can always use the inventory which DVC members have paid for to sell at rack rates to the public as Disney Deluxe Villa's. (With the timeshare I own offsite, inventory not reserved by owners 90days out can start being pulled into the management company's retail rentals inventory....to a set limit)

Disney has a similar set up. At 60 or 90 days out (can't remember which and I dont' have my POS in front of me), points inventory becomes cash inventory. Or at least becomes ACCESSIBLE to CRO.

Reported occupancy of cash inventory is relatively low for the 1 and 2 BR units, higher for the studios. It's reportedly much higher for trade out inventory, though.

2. If the unit sits empty, Disney isn't out any money since you've already paid for it, and it's upkeep. Compared to if you didn't own DVC and didn't make a trip that year, Disney doesn't make anything. With DVC owners, they still get money from you when you don't make the trip.

DVC has their money, but the parks arm loses your admission, dining, and merchandise $$. And that's what makes the DVC model so great. They get investment capital NOW, and they get your money (with increases well over the current inflation rate) for admission, food, and merch (which are high profit items, all around) later.

3. And if you decide to unload your DVC? With the right of first refusal, Disney has been able to regain control of contracts for much less than they sold it to you in the first place, then turn around and resell it back to the next sucker at a huge markup.

For less, but after use (so with shorter duration). Remember, short of OKW (with Disney's ability to tack on a cost free extension when the contract comes under their control), Disney is held to the same lease expiration that the original purchaser is. If they gain a contract back 10 years after it's initially bought...that's 10 years less duration on the lease. So it's "worth less" than it was when it was sold.

With current "per point" direct prices...it's tipped considerably in Disney's favor. On that we agree. But even as little as 6 years ago (when points were sub-$100 per point, after incentives, on AKV)....it wasn't.

Now, I won't say that Disney wants the rooms empty, but I am saying that Disney doesn't really care one way or the other. They've got your DVC buy-in money already, and they get your annual dues to help pay for the upkeep of their property. If you use it, Great.... more $$ for them from other purchases onsite. if you don't? they still got something out of you.

The DVC division probably doesn't.

DISNEY does.

and thanks to that whole irrational value justification that seems so prevelant when it comes to all things Disney (Such as the 'i'll save money with an AP'..... which often tempts you to spend more time at Disney than you originally planned because 'it's free' since you aren't buying tickets again), they know you are probably a captured customer for at least the next couple years anyways, so why bother continuing to put effort into your business?

I'm with lockedout on this. It was too good a "deal" to let me go. We did it all right (paid cash, etc) on the purchase...but the purchase itself was 100% Disney Dreaming Justified (DDJ). We knew they had us, every year..so why not just give in to the siren's call and save a couple wooden nickels, at least.
 
Define relatively.

When did they stop because I'm pretty sure the number of years they have not asked outnumbers the number they did. I'm thinking by a large margin.

I'm remebering my trip in 1993 that we had transportation IDs.
 
Out of curiosity.... I wonder what the percentage of rooms that are filled long in advance by DVC owners and point renters?

It varies wildly by time of year. If you visit some of the DVC forums (and, specifically, the resort reservation availability forum), you can get a general idea.

You get an 11 month window at your home resort, 7 months at all others. For early December and most school vacations (like Easter vacation), you usually need your 11 month window (depending on room type, etc).

For most other times of the year (with the exception of Food and Wine time, maybe), 7 months is usually more than adequate.

As such, many of the maintenance and upgrade concerns for those resorts are covered by the hotel's budget, not the Timeshare resort budget.

At the mixed use resorts, if you look at their annual budgets, you'll see that they are contributing to the hotel budget for specific things. So, at least partially, dues are covering the maintenance of common facilities/areas.

I'd honestly be surprised if there wasn't also a line-item in that budget for Disney's Management services for also keeping tabs and staffing the reservations at the resorts, on top of all the services which Disney is basically contracting with itself to handle. (I know with my timeshare ownership, I actually get a copy of the resort's total budget, with a breakdown of what the total cost-per-point on maintance fees will be. Since DVC is a lease however, I don't know if they follow the same procedures).

There is, in fact, a management fee for each resort. I can't remember exactly what it is..but I think it's something like 12.5% of the total annual budget.

To be perfectly honest, Comparing your DVC cost per year to the rack rate isn't even really fair. While the DVC cost may better reflect to actual costs to Disney for the room and resort, the Rack rates are not only going to have to include Disney's costs for the promotions they use to fill that room (so include the cost of the DDP for everyone in the room if you paid out of pocket), The payback for the cost of building the resort in the first place [with interest.... DVC resort construction is covered in the buy-in, so technically they are paid off much quicker than the regular hotels/resorts], but also the required profit margins for the 'Resorts' side of Parks&Resorts that they need to make the investors happy on Wall street.

It's a fair comparison when figuring out whether DVC is a good "deal" or not. In other words, figuring your average cost (and I've even thrown in ROI potential in my calculation, since we paid cash...break even was 10 years) vs Disney's rack rate. Because (and here's the caveat), we're going either way....no matter which rate we're "paying".

Which kinda brings me to another intereting facet that if it's not already impacting DVC, It will eventually..... Disney's tendency of late (and wall street in general) to be more beholden to the stockholder and instant profit, than long term viability or investment in the future. DVC is under the "Parks and Resorts" banner, but it is it's own profit center/division within that group. Because of the way Timeshare's are built/designed, The general operating costs of the resort once they have ended the sale phase are covered under the annual dues paid by the owners. There really isn't a lot [or any] profit margin there. That means that all the profits for the Timeshare (DVC) division are gained thru the sales phase. Construction, Sales/marketing costs, and all profit are gained from selling the inventory available in the resort you built. Once you sell out that inventory, you have absolutely no way to make any real money, unless you build someplace new to sell. In a way, it could almost be considered pyramid schemey in it's operation, and in WDW's case, it's also somewhat parasitic. DVC is making a TON of money for the company right now, and that's why they continue to sell it. The problem is that in order to continue making that money, they need to keep building properties. If you look at DVC's attempts at Stand alone properties, it's pretty obvious that the draw is pretty much their park-based properties, so by both necessity and ease of sales, They continue to build around the parks.

The management fees return them some profit, too...considering everything they put into it (labor, material, etc) is also lined out in the budget. And if you're not selling anything, at some point...the infrastructure necessary to sell goes away (staffing, overhead, etc), so while that's not profit, it's reclaimed costs.


I also wouldn't be totally surprised if we started seeing DVC Annual fees get a significant bump around this time as well. We've seen other non-Disney timeshares have their Maintenance Fees jump once the sales phase has ended as the Developer ended up subsidizing part of the Resort's operation/maintenance in order to improve their ability to sell their inventory. Since DVC is also locked into many Disney Services, you could see Disney start charging the resort more for those services in order to make more money from the resort's guest/owners. (Services such as Disney Transportation, Mousekeeping, Reservations, and even Front Desk services).

1) Developer subsidies have to be clearly stated and claimed. That's Florida law. I don't believe there are any on the books, currently (the BLT one expired)...though there might still be one at Vero stemming back to when the plans for that resort changed.

2) There's a limit, per year, in how much the fees can increase. I believe it's 15% of the operating budget portion of the fee (ie: the taxes piece can increase as much as Florida wants it to). That limits their ability to do so. In addition, Disney does not want people abandoning their contracts en masse, flooding the market with cheap contracts, and either leaving Disney with a LOT of ROFR contracts that THEY can't sell OR having people default on their dues/contracts. That would hit Disney squarely in the wallet.

Then again...... Since Disney is doing Leases, maybe they just plan to maintain profitability in the future by reselling the intentory they already built... :confused3

Or selling extensions on existing leases as they come due (though that was an abject failure for OWK).
 












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