Just back from Pop Century, aka "Scooter City"!

[dclfun]

I think that if you use a canopy in the parade viewing areas, then you go behind all others there, unless you take the canopy off.

I use a scooter on almost a daily basis and have yet to be anywhere that a poncho or hat and long sleeved shirt didn't fix. I think blocking the view like that of others is just rude.

Yes, there are other options to avoid the sun. Guests not using scooters also can have the same issues with the sun, yet they are not allowed to use umbrellas in the park, for instance because they are a hazard and block people's views. Sunblock and a large hat are just as useful. It's not only blocking views in parades or shows- it's navigation that is impaired also. If one is stuck behind or next to one of these guests, we can't see around them in any direction.

Bete- as to the other value resorts, as I haven't been to one recently I have no idea if the issue is one that has gotten worse everywhere. Pop Century does have the most rooms sharing one bus stop and food court so just by sheer volume there is more potential for longer wait times. I am at the point of only wanting to stay at a monorail or Epcot resort, but of course my budget would prefer the value or moderate resorts if I'm not using DVC points. I have a vacation beginning this Thursday and plan to be very observant.

Bill- I'm sorry to hear that your vacation was so frustrating. You confirmed my worst fears as you were visiting during what is considered one of the slowest times of the year. ---Kathy

 

[cm8]

I'm very concerned about the quality of our vacations with so many guests needing accommodations. I've already been turned away from shows and theaters because all the accessible spaces were gone and we've waited for long periods of time for accessible ride vehicles on the few attractions I can even access. My fear is that access and wait times will become more restrictive such as with the new changes with the bus queue in the theme parks, making it harder for disabled guests to have an equal experience. Disney is great at taking measurements and doing IE studies- I wonder if they've begun to think about addressing this issue, not just at the resorts but at the theme parks as well. On another note I wish they'd restrict the ECV's with the canopies. It's impossible to see over them if one is also seated or if one is a shorter statured guest or child, which IMO is a huge hazard at worst and at best is rude to others.----Kathy

 

[Bete]

He can't walk for long; so, he uses a scooter. With that said he almost always gets off his scooter for shows; unless, the CM doesn't want him to do so. Anyway, I'm suprised at the comment about scooters at the shows making guests not get into those shows. I know some stay on, but I also know some get off the scooters.

If it's more wheelchairs taking up the space at shows, I think it means more and more people are getting it. The same is true of strollers acting as wheelchairs. Disney is still, in my opinion, one of the best park friendly places for the handicap. I think the reality is that more people are coming to Disney World that are handicap. This includes scooters, but there is just a higher volume of us with walking disabilities going to Disney World, now.

I wish they did the expansion for POP. It might resolve some of the issue there. I suppose it won't happen; because, All Stars is not to capapcity all the time. I like POP better myself, but I'm considering a moderate and All Star as another option for my Dec. 2011 trip.

I don't know how to resolve this easily. I don't see Disney renovating every show for more handicap seating, but I could be wrong. We have to see how it all develops, but we may all end up just waiting longer and getting to shows earlier than before. The same is true of the buses; we will just have to start out earlier.

My mom comes with us on these trips and she's in a wheelchair. So, we are dealing with a scooter and a wheelchair all the time. We stay at POP almost every time we have gone and I can honestly say there have been only a few ocassions where we waited for another bus; so, we could be together on the same bus.

I will make another comment. We skipped Disney this year and went to Dollywood. Anyway, we included a Biltmore (Vanderbilt mansion) trip in North Carolina. At Biltmore, you are given a good discount if you are in a wheelchair and your pusher gets the same discount. They do this because 30% of the viewing area is not accessible to wheelchair.

I'm starting to feel Disney needs to institute a similar program. If I have to wait longer for buses, rides, shows I think we need to be compensated for it in some ways. Also, we don't get to do all the rides, either. We really don't have an equal experience; so, why do we pay the same full price? I much rather have an equal experience, but if that doesn't happen then I think we should be finacially compensated for the differences.

 

[dclfun]

I'm at Disney now- just finished two days at the Poly and am checking in to AKLV's today. I went to MK yesterday briefly around 11:00 and attempted to see the Country Bears and Tiki Room attractions. I was turned away from both as there was a line of scooters entering and the CM told me all the accessible spaces were full. I was told I could wait another 20+ minutes for the next show. I got the very last accessible space at the Hall of Presidents but then people decided to ignore the request not to use flash photography or lit screens, so those of us sitting in the back row had constant distractions of guests doing the above. After being thoroughly frustrated I just decided to leave the park and tour the holiday decorations at the GF, then I went to the DVC Merry Mixer at the Contemporary. Then going from the Contemporary to the Poly I had to wait through THREE monorails as all the accessible spaces were also taken. I ended up going back out to see Illuminations at Epcot and was so grateful that the CM in charge of the accessible viewing area asked people standing to kneel or sit and that these people actually listened and did as they were requested to do! Hopefully the rest of my trip will go smoothly- I am not looking forward to the bus queue at Epcot but will no longer be leaving during the mass exodus so maybe it won't be so bad....sigh.---Kathy

 

[free2div]

Was at POP from Dec 4 til today...we didnt have any issues with catching buses or having to wait for scooters or wheelchairs..no more than all our previous stays over the last 6 yrs at POP..maybe we just hit all the buses at the right time..even the foodcourt I dont recall seeing that many and never saw any going to and from our room. We did have a lot getting on POP buses from other parks to transfer to the Downtown bus..even at one lady get on POP bus from DT to transfer at POP to go to Epcot. It seems CM tell guests to get on the POP bus to get to DT and looks like now to other parks from DT. We had a great time..so sad to be back home.

 

[lovetoscrap]

I was at ASMo the beginning of Sept. We mostly used the Food Court as ASMu and didn't use the buses. While I really didn't notice any issues in the food court I was absolutely amazed at the number of rental ECV's lined up outside the main building at both resorts every day being dropped off and picked up. And I definitely saw a lot more of them in the parks than in the last few years when I went. I am seeing that more at my local amusement park also. The same problem of not getting into shows because the spots are taken.

I actually prefer to transfer but need to be able to park my ECV close (prefer in the theater). I like to be able to sit with my family and usually the sightlines are so much better in the regular seats. Disney is better for this because most of their theaters don't have steps. At our park here there are stairs and no where close to park and walk, either in the theater or out.

I won't take the buses anymore. If I can't drive or rent a car then it isn't worth going. Just to frustrating to have to wait. It is interesting. When I started having my problems about 5 years or so ago my main issue was standing on the bus-I couldn't balance on a moving bus so I had to have a seat. So I would stand to the side if the seats were taken and be first in line for the next bus. This was practically unheard of then, but now I read about people doing it fairly often. Then the next trip I was no longer able to walk in the parks and did an offsite scooter rental and it was pretty easy to get on the buses and get around. But yep, in just 5 years things have really changed. 10 years ago, unless you wanted to be pushed in a wheelchair, you didn't go to WDW or any other amusement park. It is going to be very interesting to see how things develop in the next 5-10 years.

I am thinking we may start seeing more personally owned ECVs. I am already seeing more in the local stores. When I got mine I was the only person at the mall or in Costco or Target or Walmart with my own scooter. Now there may be several. I would love to see the onsite use ones -- at WDW, amusement parks, stores, etc-- designed with a much smaller profile. It is amazing the difference between mine and the ones at a location. I know they need to be "industrial strength" but there are a lot of things they can do to streamline them. At the parks they can start with getting rid of the darn grocery cart sized basket!!!

 

[jm-mom]

I think this issue must be more related to the value resorts. I just got back from a week a the French Quarter and I sued a scooter from Walker the entire time. Many times the bus picking up for a park stopped at French Quarter's one stop plus all of them at Riverside. Never one time, coming or going from the resort, did I ever have another scooter person waiting to board a bus. I saw plenty of people on scooters around my resort but it just was NEVER a problem for us. We went when it was supposedly a slow time however I think the park crowds were a lot larger than we thought they would be and there were a lot of scooter users. But as far as the bus service went (ior monorail or boat) I just never had a single problem. We took the boat to Downtown Disney several times also and I was always the only one. The bus drivers and other bus riders couldn't have been nicer every single time. This was my 5th trip using the scooter and I'd have to say my best experience with the busses overall.

My theory is that the scooters do add to the overall cost of the vacation so many needing one or more of these in a family have to cut costs somewhere else thus the reason the value resorts are so popular. But honestly, I just never had an issue. As we'd leave the park at the end of the day and walk past all the bus stops for the other resorts, I rarely even saw one scooter, let alone a line of them. I'd guess if you opted for a resort other than one of the value resorts you'd have no issue whatsoever.

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

JM-mom; I've seen it for values, but I've seen it for every level of resorts. Not the same exact numbers but relatively, I've seen pretty high numbers of those using mobility aids that it would cause back ups. I've seen it at rides, shows but also at enough park busstops. I've always only done low season, but for me it became very obvious on my first trip in '07 that each level of resorts comes with some that seem to have a higher rate of those using a mobility aid. Each trip after that gave me the same experience over and over again. And I don't even tend to do any of the busier moments as openings, closings, around party-times, you name it.

By the way; they might still call those first weeks of december "low" season but it is in no way when comparing it to the real "quiet" moments like in september. Heck, I already see a difference the first weeks of september and the last weeks. Beginning of december aint superbusy but after doing september first I've found december to be distinctively busier. We did it once for the holiday stuff and back to december it has been since!

 

[KPeveler]

Ok, let's try this thread again. I wanted to take a chance to read everything and get this back on track.

You will notice I deleted all the posts that were prompted by that one off-topic post.

I would be interested in reports of how resorts are faring in terms of buses and accommodations. When I visit Florida I MUST use the buses (can't afford the cost of a wheelchair van), so I am very interested to learn more about this.

 

[SueM in MN]

Although we prefer people to PM us with comments or concerns about moderating, I am going to respond to some of the comments here.

Having said all of this, I'm a bit amazed this topic is still going on. Not the moderatingstyle I've become accustomed to on the DIS (allthough not always my personal style).

KPeveler, I and all the DIS Moderators are volunteers. We do have other lives outside of the DIS (I know, hard to believe anyone would not be here 24 hours a day).
Sometimes, things are going on in our personal lives (like getting ready for Christmas, personal or work overload, etc.) that make it a little more difficult to spend lots of time on the DIS Boards.

We do have some pretty good ideas about when a thread seems to be headed down a path that is not a good path and we try to close it as it is starting to go off the path, rather than watch until it heads right over the edge of a cliff.
Because I have been very busy, KPeveler has carried the biggest part of the load of moderating in the past few weeks.

At this moment Kathys reasons for this topics are being questioned in such a way it can be very hurtfull for her if she did mean it in a non-judgemental way like most read it. As clearly posted on here, she's having some nice WDW-time at the moment (and making me envious.... ). Not really a 'fair' position with her having way to much fun to be able to spend time on here to explain or if need be defent herself. I'ld personally say; let's just keep feelings what they are; feelings. let's just give Kathy the benefit of the doubt if one has these feelings. And when she comes back, just ask. Take a leap of faith and ask "hey, Kathy, what did you mean when opening this topic?". But until then let's just keep it on the topic as most have taken it; a discussion about certain accessibility features at WDW being stretched to their max. and beyond. I personally think there is a good discussion in that and would find it a shame if it would get lost because of "what did Kathy mean or not" while she's not even here to begin with.

The bolded part was one of the reasons this thread was closed. I have never met Kathy, but have known her a long time on the DIS Boards. I am certain that her reason for posting in the first place was just to vent the fact that there are not enough resources for the people with wheelchairs and ECVs that are needing them.
The thread was getting into a misunderstanding of this and into people getting defensive.
With the threads about Whoopi Goldberg's comments about ECV users on many boards (including on this thread and another thread on this board), there were more things to watch than Moderators to watch them.

This thread could have ended up as a discussion about resources, but, to be honest KPeveler and I did not have the 'resources' to watch and nurture the thread to get it back along that path.

 

[KPeveler]

This thread could have ended up as a discussion about resources, but, to be honest KPeveler and I did not have the 'resources' to watch and nurture the thread to get it back along that path.

I did finally have a chance to do some work on this thread, so I am going to see where the thread goes.

I am doing the best I can to keep things on track, but as Sue stated, we are all volunteers and something real life eats up too much of our time! Hopefully things will settle for both of us soon.

 

[livndisney]

I did see what may be considered more "change" in the way Disney handles buses and ECVs. At SSR last week they have signs posted about how to use the buses with an ECV. I think I got a pic of the sign, but the part that sticks out to me is what many have compained about-the sign said the scooter and their party of up to 6 may board at the back door. It also said, parties may have to seperate.

So perhaps we will start to see more of these signs at the other resorts.

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

First up; appreciate the thread being opened back up.

This thread could have ended up as a discussion about resources, but

I honestly think it still can. I believe in the power of boardmembers being able to regulate themselves. Give us a bit more space. Yes sometimes things will get said but it also gives the space to air said sentiments and together come to a conclusion some sentiments aren't always correct and grow from there. As long as there is no preverbial you-know-who-fights going on; why not give us all some credit we can have disagreements as adults, quarrel and get that back on course again.

I value Kathy for opening this topic. Not just for opening it but because she has the guts to do it. I personally was starting to feel more and more as if even mentioning and ECV could equal getting your wrist slapped. Can just be me, but I'm also more and more hearing sounds of others having a same feeling. Which is very dangerous when not wanting it to cultivate into something like "them" versus "us".

This subject needs adressing. Let's get the feelings out in the open. Airing them is better than bottling it up. Not everybody will agree about each detail but we should all be able to agree that WDW needs to start on working a growthschedule for their accessibility feature as the group needing them also grows quickly.

We've got so much energy on these boards when it comes to subjects where anybody feels bashed. If we could use even just 20% of that energy into a continues combined effort, we could get a point across with WDW. Listening to that is a second, but we've seen from the recent bus-changes that apparently enough complaints from enough guests can trigger changes.

I can see where a company as WDW could perhaps even be stuck in the "how do you grow with these demands?", as we ourselves find the numbers sometimes overwhelming. Let's face it, it's a lot easier to move 100 abled bodied guests on a transportation system, through parks, in rides etc as 100 guests needing accessibility features. WDW has shown they do value accessibility, good odds there being an opening of some sort.

We on here all have experiences, which combined can be a huge source of knowledge. Which combined could just come up with some great ideas of expanding accessibility, dealing with the growing numbers in a more friendly way for all guests. We could be one heck of an advocate for these rights.

It is not about one group or another. We all benefit from better features, we all suffer when they are overstretched. If any I think those using an ECV (which -still?- mostly are rentals) will suffer more from it than those using a wheelchair, their clearly own owned ECV and other mobility aids. Why? Because it tends to be more difficult for the world to look beyond seeing somebody driving around at one moment and walking the other moment. When features become more scarse, we always see more of a 'fight for your right'-mentalitity. Let alone general public getting involved and things and voicing their opinion. Having a "visable obvious" need or own aid doesn't magically make all remarks, stares and what not disappear but I am convinced those are coming in a higher number for those using rental ECV's. Those will be hit the hardest and thus benefit the best from any keeping up with the growing demand. It's not "us" or "them", it's an "all together" thing.

I think most will agree that there needs to be some grow to keep up with the demands. That's an easy part. But how do you keep up with that? I'm totally curious what ideas others have about that. Or how a proper lobby from us loyal WDW-visiters with a need, could be build up. Is that even needed? Perhaps I'm nuts in some peoples vision?

To be honest, that last part is nothing new. I am actually nuts in certain ways. Let's try to see if we can turn these less positive experiences some are starting to run into into something more positive. I'm convinced a real force can be made on this board, we've got enough people on here, enough talents, enough experience. I dare you all; proof me right or wrong. Preferrably right of course, who doesn't like being right?

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

To kick it off myself, I want to repeat a symptomdealer I've found myself using. Over the years I've learned which resorts seem busier (at the moments I travel obviously) with those needing mobility aids accessibility on for instance transportation. I remember those very vividly and when time comes to pick my next stay, I tend to stay away from those resorts. Not because I wouldn't want to be around others using aids but because I like not having to wait for 5 busses before an accessible place on it is open for me to use.

By no way is it a 100%-guarantee thing and it is just a symptom thing, not a cure. But for me it works rather well. As long as I do not do park openings, closings and alike, I tend not to have to wait for more than the second bus if even that when using transport to and from my own resort. Monorail is also pretty good as long as we use it for ADR's at non conventional times and I've found it to be busier at the Cont than the other 2 monorail resorts. Perhaps CM has something to do with that? No clue.

I do venture out to other resorts but again bad luck or not; as soon as I dare doing this for some of the resorts I find to have busier busstops for the accessibility features, I find myself waiting longer to be able to use the accessible features.

Same goes for rides. As mentioned before the Tikiroom is just pure evil on this subject. I don't even attempt it unless I'ld go there first thing in the morning of a day I know I'll be there for a long time (read; be able to get back for a following show, wait and wait). It seems the set up of a ride/show is a big thing in this. Rides and shows that allow those that can transfer to do so without having to have their aid parked a huge distance away seem to be better able to deal with the demand. Those that can transfer can do so easier which frees up the accessible spots for those that do not have the option. A ride like Soarin' has a good set up for this. The waitline might cover a huge distance, but that's no worry. They seem to be able to handle a pretty large % of mobility aids compared to the total amounts of guests on any given flight, having enough space to move those aids into and out of the way of the ride.

Those are just a few things I do to counteract the 'symptoms' I run into. Obviously no real cure there although I do think Disney can take valuable lessons from those symptoms in finding which set ups work better, which less and what can create a relatively higher demand for rides, resorts and what not when it comes to the need for accessibility factors.

 

[icouldlivethere]

As much as it pains me to say this, I question if Disney has any intentions of expanding their accessible seating. Right now they meet all the requirements set up by the ADA. Accessible seating not only takes up more room you have to have the ability to access it while in your ECV/WC. I can transfer into a theater style seat if I can have my ECV parked near by. For example on the Carousel of Progress I was asked to park my ECV next to the wall and then take a seat on the end of the row which worked out fine. I can't leave my ECV outside and walk into a ride or show and I can't transfer onto a hard bench style seating with no back rest like they have at the Lion King show. I have to get to the Lion King show early enough to get one of the limited accessible spots or I can't watch the show. I've been turned away numerous times from that show because there were no accessible spots left and I'm unable to transfer onto a bench with no back support. Unfortunately, I don't think there is any way to solve that issue, when you look around the room I don't know where else they could place additional accessible seats.

I don't see Disney doing major rehabs to all of their attractions to accommodate us any time in the near future. I think they are playing around with different ideas but I don't see any way they are going to keep up with the huge increase in the volume of people needing accessible spots.

 

[dclfun]

I'm back from our vacation, and re-read this thread, but have no idea where things went off-track, so I'm just going to jump back in. We were there for a total of 8 nights- two at the Poly and 6 at AKLV's ( Jambo House). I decided that for my own comfort I would not take any busses this trip, thus we used my ramp van or while at the Poly I used the monorail exclusively. Two days during our trip I didn't even enter a park but went to the movies and relaxed at AKLV's in the concierge lounge as it was too cold for me! At MK I finally gave up on seeing Country Bears/Tiki Room as it was always full for accessible seating and forgot all about the new queues at IASW and Winnie the Pooh or I'd have at least gone to check them out. As there are so few attractions that I can access, my experience would probably be quite different from those who can transfer. While I saw quite a few guests using ECV's or w/c's at AKLV's it did not seem like a greater amount than I've seen in the past.

I also wonder if Disney has any plans to offer additional accessible seating in some of the shows or viewing areas or to modify the entrances or queue lines. It all seems so unfair to have to wait so much longer than others, esp. for those of us with limited energy or who are experiencing pain. I have such an advantage being able to visit WDW so often, but what about the people who don't? What about the MAW families who have a child who cannot transfer? Even with the FOTL access given just to them, they still are not able to go in front of guests who were already waiting. As to suggestions, perhaps they can offer benches in the queue lines at the Tiki Room and offer end of row seating and the use of a manual w/c for Country Bears. As it is, someone using an ECV would have to be able to stand and/or walk quite a distance just to get inside the theaters.

All in all I had a relaxing trip but only because I avoided even trying to do most attractions. I skipped the Osborne Lights as last year it was a huge hassle with myself and Skye in such a big crowd with people not paying attention to where they were walking and I just couldn't face that prospect again. As always, I had many people attempting to pet Skye and one woman actually stopped me in the hallway at the Poly to TELL me that she was going to teach her child a lesson about service dogs...without asking my permission. I'm so weary of this but it's really not a topic for this thread.

I hope we can all continue a discussion about resources/solutions to the challenges we face as more guests are needing accommodations and that those who are visiting the parks and resorts can report on their experiences. Thanks to those who have participated thus far!---Kathy

 

[BillSears]

Welcome back. I'm sorry you had such a rough time but I understand.

...one woman actually stopped me in the hallway at the Poly to TELL me that she was going to teach her child a lesson about service dogs...

I assume the lesson she wanted to teach was that service dogs are on duty and should not be distracted in any way?

It's rough at my work. There is a seeing eye dog who seems to have a thing for wheelchair users. This guy will get on the elevator with me and the his dog will come up next to me looking at me with these pitiful eyes asking for attention. It got so bad one day that the blind guy asked me if I was in a wheelchair and he explained the dog's quirk. I've never petted this dog but he still looks for attention from me. Poor guy.

 

[dclfun]

Welcome back. I'm sorry you had such a rough time but I understand.



I assume the lesson she wanted to teach was that service dogs are on duty and should not be distracted in any way?

It's rough at my work. There is a seeing eye dog who seems to have a thing for wheelchair users. This guy will get on the elevator with me and the his dog will come up next to me looking at me with these pitiful eyes asking for attention. It got so bad one day that the blind guy asked me if I was in a wheelchair and he explained the dog's quirk. I've never petted this dog but he still looks for attention from me. Poor guy.

Skye also has an affinity for people in wheelchairs or using ECV's. I think in her doggy mind she feels as if she might need to assist them too! Lots of times when we are on the move Skye will keep her head down and not make eye contact with people ( upon which I will be told that she looks depressed, lol) so that she can maintain her focus vs. being distracted by so many people. I'm sure anyone with a SD would say that they are annoyed by the same things, esp when at WDW and really just trying to have a vacation like everyone else. During this trip I was particularly exhausted so it really got to me.---Kathy

 

[bbak30]

Never again.----Kathy

Sorry, have to agree. We were there from 12/10-12/17 and we had several long waits due to scooters. Of course I don't have a problem with waiting for someone to get on the bus and I understand the need for them. BUT, I do get a little frustrated when we are in line for 20 minutes, then all of a sudden someone comes up just as a bus pulls up and they--along with their 15 family members--get to load up before everyone else that has been waiting. Half the bus is packed by then. And I'm sorry, but that is unfair.
I will never stay at this resort again, for more reason than just this.

 

[PatMcDuck]

Kathy, just a quick comment. When DD had her MAW trip at DL, we of course had the MAW GAC card. And because of the stamps used, we WERE given priority over other wheelchair users and their families.... Bridget was about 16 then, and she held the card herself. She would show it to the CM, and say, I believe I have "priority", and they would move her in front of the wheelchair queue. Maybe only DL does this though. I did NOT feel bad doing it. She was quite ill, and we only could stay in the parks about 2 hours before she had to return to the room to rest.

And I think I have seen MAW families go ahead of us, too, at WDW (and I have no problem with that). But it is a tough thing, some people are in a wheelchair or scooter, and they are really not well and health challenged. Others might be ok, they just have a temporary injury or something.

Interesting thread Kathy, I wonder if there is a better alternative to help transport scooter users and their families. I think the high cost of Disney scooters used to deter people from renting them (and coming to WDW). Now more people know about the offsite less expensive options....