Jim Hill Piece on Universal vs Disney in Orlando

[Planogirl]

Wow JacksBack, there's a lot of interesting info in your post. I do agree that it might be wise to hold off on opinions of Mission Space until it opens and maybe Mickey in 3D (as you call it) should also be given the benefit of the doubt for now at least.

Something doesn't have to be time tested to be good any more than Indiana Jones did. I can see the superheroes being developed into super characters at Universal. As for HP, the logical choice seems to be a Quidditch type of ride but the possibilities are mindboggling. Universal does need to tread carefully with Lord of the Rings because this story has been successful for a very long time and a thrill ride doesn't really seem to suit it. A dark ride of some kind seems to be more logical but Universal doesn't really seem to be into rides of that type. Of course, that's not to say that they couldn't build them. I hear that there are quite a few imagineers around nowadays who could help.

 

[WebmasterPete]

Okay, I'm throwing my hat in the ring here, and I know this will bother some of you, but here goes:

If I look at things, based on the industry post 9/11, Universal is kicking Disney's butt all around town. Let me be very clear in stating that I don't like the way Universal does business with others in Orlando. That's why I no longer offer their hotels for sale through Dreams. However, as a consumer, as an Orlando resident, and as someone who has watched this pan out for over a decade, I can say that Universal is well positioned to do a lot of damage to Disney right now.

While Universal may not have the same amount of property to develop that Disney has (and they never will), they have made a pretty amazing transformation in the last 5 years from a one theme park bore-fest, to a very exciting destination in their own right.

Also, JacksBacks' comments, while a little difficult to read, are, in effect, accurate. Universal has been remarkably aggressive with new ride technologies, they are being VERY aggressive with cross promotion and they have their hands on some VERY valuable commodities right now. Dreamworks is proving to be a very formidable force in Hollywood, and remember who owns Dreamworks (Speilberg-already in bed with Universal, and Katzenberg who would do anything to slap at Eisner). Shrek, for example, was Katzenbergs baby (so was the Road to Elderado, but we won't talk about that now), so is it any wonder that Universal has the rights to develop for it in their parks? Remember, Disney BOUGHT the rights to Pooh, they didn't invent it. As a matter of fact, many of the things Disney is banking on right now is in conjunction with purchased rights, not on things they are developing on their own, or based on things they developed.

Universal is a powerful force in this town, and truth be told, I would rather spend the day right now at Universal than at MGM or Animal Kingdom (MK and Epcot are a differnt story). In the resort arena, Universal (with Lowes) has shown that they can develop fantastic hotel properties (I'm sorry, but Portofino Bay is far nicer than Disney's Grand Floridian in my opinion).

So, in summation, anyone that ignores Universal as a player and force to be reckoned with may find themselves surprised in five years, ESPECIALLY if Barry Diller takes over. Remember, Eisners ghosts are coming home to roost these days, and Barry Diller is yet another person that would love to deal Disney in general, and Eisner in particular, a heavy blow. Never underestimate the power of "pay back"

Just MHO.

Pete

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

Pete,

Thanks for posting.

While I'm at it, thanks for the site, in general.

For my own part, I've mostly quit the DIS because of the reactions I get when I've posted opinions similar to yours. Hopefully, your post will help some of those posters to understand that one can criticize something while truly caring about it; that one can question an individual's decision-making without secretly harboring irrational hatreds.

-WFH

 

[WebmasterPete]

Walts Frozen Head....I love that name LOL!

I know that any kind of pro-Universal stance on this site is considered heresy, and I'm partly to blame for that. Truth is, I think that if folks just kept an open mind, they might find something redeeming about USO. When I first started this site, I was decidedly anti-Universal. However, over time, I started warming up to it, as well as to Sea World (which I consider to be one of the best theme parks in the world). Orlando is so much more than just Disney, and I've been lax in directing this site into some of those areas. It's a problem I'm working to fix, but hopefully, others will realize it on their own, and start venturing beyond the gates.

Thanks,
Pete

 

[raidermatt]

Pete, Thanks for posting. While I'm at it, thanks for the site, in general.

Ditto.

I think Universal is being much more aggressive in pursuing its goals than Disney has been in pursuing theirs. (Well, not exactly true. Disney has been VERY aggressive in pursuing one goal, cutting costs...)

But while I agree that Universal is doing some great things, they are still not aggressively attacking Disney's core. Disney's core are people who, unlike Jack, DO care if there is a new parade. They consider Fantasmic and Illuminations to be major attractions for WDW. That's why there are so many complaints about Spectro/FITS being on such a limited schedule.

Universal has done nothing more than dabble in this type of entertainment. Their new attractions, so far, are more oriented to the market they are already strong in, teens/thrill-seekers, etc. Universal is doing what Disney SHOULD be doing, which is concentrating on developing new attractions for its core.

So unless Universal changes its focus, they will not be the real reason for any problems that occur at WDW. There are two mistakes that WDW can make, and they appear to be making them both:

1- Not provide new major family attractions for its core audience. Epcot is a perfect example of what happens when this mistake is made. Philharmagic is the only announced attraction in all of WDW that is in development for this core audience.

2- Competing with Universal (and others) in the thrill market, and compouding the mistake by not committing to it as strongly as Universal. WDW has four parks while Universal has two, yet they only have one of these attractions in announced development, while Universal has at least one. (I'm not sure what the focus of some of Universal's new rides are).

So in short, I agree with the criticism of Disney, but I don't believe it has very much to do with what Universal is doing. The overlap in their targets is small enough that both can grow and be successful. The problem for Disney is that they are not doing what they should be doing, even if Universal didn't exist.

 

[Bob O]

Also ditto to Pete's posts. And i couldnt agree more!!
Raidermatt-I think wdw is suffering right now due to USF and will suffer more if they dont improve their product and have more things for teenagers/adults who want more than just princess's. When we went to FLA in the past we spent all our time at wdw except for maybe a day at SW. But now while we do spend 4/5 days as wdw, we also spend 3 days at USF and 2 of my kids perfer USF over wdw right now and that will have a mojor impact on the decisions where they will spend time when they have their own family. And i really enjoyed my stay at the Portifino which we went too after staying at the Beach Club and would easily pick it hands down again as it was just as nice, if not nicer, just as convient, had better perks and was cheaper. If the report in newsweek is true that disney's attendance is down 6% and USF is up 11% over the past two years i think it is because people are spending less time at wdw and spending that time at USF and disney needs to give people a reason to change that pattern but have shown no willingness to so yet by improving their product, instead they are cutting things back. I dont think people are increasing the amount of days they spend in FLA but they are deciding to spend less time at wdw and more at USF.

 

[toefungus]

Universal is brining in the teens and young adults more than Disney is. When we were leaving the parks teens and adults were just arriving for the clubs and restraunts at CityWalk. Now when I was at downtown Disney and Pleasure Island all you would find were families and older adults at PI. Disney needs to attract the younger crowds because they're all heading for UNiversal.

 

[raidermatt]

Bob, I think we both know we have different views of what Disney's main focus should be, but we do agree that they need to focus on SOMETHING other than cost-cutting and margins (or at least in addition to...).

One note you may have missed in another thread regarding the 11% climb in Universal attendance from 1999 to 2001. The Newsweek article that reported that number neglected to mention that 1999 was only a partial year for IoA. If IoA had been open for a full year in 1999, and drawn the same number of guests it did in 2000, USF would have an almost identical drop in attendance (%-wise) as WDW. Its debateable exactly what IoA's full-year attendance would have been, but its clear that 11% was gross over-statement.

From 2000 to 2001, USF actually experienced a larger % decline than WDW.

I'm not saying USF is not having some success, and certainly we don't have much to go on for 2002. But the theory that USF is stealing guests away from WDW faster than WDW can replace them doesn't have as much support from the numbers as Newsweek reported.

 

[raidermatt]

Mr Fungus- Your statement is one of those debates that resurfaces here from time to time...

On the one hand, there are those who feel the same way you do, that WDW should try to go after the teens, and therefore keep Universal from growing.

On the other side, some feel that Disney has always struggled with the teen market, becuase the things that appeal to teens generally don't go over big with younger and older guests. Therefore, Disney should stay the course, allow Universal to grow its teen market, just as other parks have, like Six Flags.

I agree with the latter, though I think Disney is starting to drop the ball by not executing on this strategy.

 

[daannzzz]

Disney is starting to drop the ball by not executing on this strategy. [/B]

Disney doesn't seem to operating on any stratagy. It all seems to be reaction!

 

[WebmasterPete]

It seems to be a day where I'm agreeing with BobO...perhaps I should have my meds checked

Bob is correct in his numbers....it is widely known among the inner circles here in Orlando that Universal's attendance and performance figures are up. Hard Rock was a big helper in this, as it has rarely dropped below 90% occupancy since opening. Portofino is another story, and a very sad one in my opinion, but the Hard Rock, and now the Royal Pacific are drawing guests in DROVES. Something that also needs to be remembered is that today’s teens were yesterdays tots. Universal will keep its market with teens, and continue to keep it as they grow to young adults, and dare I say, into full maturity. That gives Universal a MUCH longer 'shelf life' for their guests, where Disney basically attracts the younger kids with it's attractions, and once they've outgrown them, they won't return again until they have kids of their own. Everyone loves the "hip" factor, and right now, Universal's got it, Disney doesn't, and unless they stop reacting (something daannzzz correctly alluded to), they won't get anywhere. Believe me, I 'm not happy about this, I don't want to see Disney fail, but I think some of their execs are their own worst enemies right now. Shame, they have some talented folks over there that are being largely ignored right now.

Pete

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

JacksBack!! wrote:

You Disney people are so blinded by the Disney name

I don’t know who you are, but you make a great opening statement!!!!

Mr. Head!!

For my own part, I've mostly quit the DIS because of the reactions I get when I've posted opinions similar to yours.

YES!!! Leaving me to fend for myself!!! (he says with mock indigence!) Welcome back. And don’t be a stranger!! I COULD USE THE HELP!!!!! (but I have learned how to manipulate the font size while you were gone. Pretty neat, ain't it!! ) You know a PM once in a while would be nice!!


And while I’m at it I’d like to second the frozen one’s sentiment:

Thanks for posting.

While I'm at it, thanks for the site, in general.

DITTO!!!

I wasn’t quite sure you were real. But you are!! And to top it off you say such marvelous things!!!! Who knew that the first inkling of your very existence and I find that I don’t disagree with one single solitary word!!


Just get a gander at these:

Universal is a powerful force in this town, and truth be told, I would rather spend the day right now at Universal than at MGM or Animal Kingdom (MK and Epcot are a different story).

Remember, Eisners ghosts are coming home to roost these days, and Barry Diller is yet another person that would love to deal Disney in general, and Eisner in particular, a heavy blow. Never underestimate the power of "pay back"

... as well as to Sea World (which I consider to be one of the best theme parks in the world)

Something that also needs to be remembered is that today’s teens were yesterdays tots. Universal will keep its market with teens, and continue to keep it as they grow to young adults, and dare I say, into full maturity. That gives Universal a MUCH longer 'shelf life' for their guests, where Disney basically attracts the younger kids with it's attractions, and once they've outgrown them, they won't return again until they have kids of their own.

WOW!!! Don’t ya just love it!! And that last one was a whopper! And something I’ve been yammering on about for two years now!!!

One suggestion though. I’ve found that it’s a whole bunch of fun doing it this way: Ei$ner!

Give it try. You might like it!!!



The only thing that had me a little confused was :

It seems to be a day where I'm agreeing with BobO...perhaps I should have my meds checked

Hmmmm. Since I tend to stay on this board only, I really don’t understand. I don’t know bob’s politics or religious beliefs. But I gotta tell, when it comes to Disney, he ”GETS IT”!!! The only “Disney” that I don’t agree with is his roller coaster stance!! If he’s a ten regarding Disney adding them, I’m definitely a four or five!!

And that leads me to my question for JacksBack!!

Does this innovation Disney needs (and I sure do agree they need something) have to be a thrill experience of some sort? I mean would you suggest that a Hulk type coaster be installed, no theme, just thrill? Or a mix? Or dark ride? Or...

Well, I think you know what I mean.



PS: In case you don’t know me read some of posts. I’m certainly not baiting you. I really want to know!!

Thanks!

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron


Does this innovation Disney needs (and I sure do agree they need something) have to be a thrill experience of some sort? I mean would you suggest that a Hulk type coaster be installed, no theme, just thrill? Or a mix? Or dark ride? Or...

Helloooo...Landbaron I think that I "get it too".


Jacksback showed up last year on the Universal boards around the time of Halloween Horror Nights. He is very pro Universal. (Not a bad thing) So am I. I think that Universal is gaining more acceptance here and other areas away from the Universal portion of the site. Some people will never admit that Universal has a good thing going and are offering products just as good or better in some cases then Disney. That’s fine; they are the ones losing out.

What Disney needs...man what a loaded question. I think it's been pointed out several times. Here is the short list. First Stop cutting perks, hours and or reducing overall guest experiences. Spend, spend, and spend. Start pumping money back into the parks. They need to build E-tickets, I'm talking quality stuff here. Spiderman, TOT level stuff here. Things that make people want to comeback every year just to experience the new great stuff. They don't all have to be thrill rides but a few here and there will keep the teen/young adults in the parks. Along with that goes Fixing Animal Kingdom, DCA, and the missing closed attractions in the other parks as well as expanding the 4 current parks. Fix the transportation problems. Burn POP Century to the ground(hehe). Collect the insurance money and put the money back into the parks. Then pretend Pop Century never happened. Stop wasting money on Internet, old cartoons, bad movies, direct to video crap, sports teams, and fix or sale ABC.

If they do that Disney will see Profits though the roof and the stock price at all time highs!

 

[WebmasterPete]

Originally posted by EUROPA


Burn POP Century to the ground(hehe). Collect the insurance money and put the money back into the parks. Then pretend Pop Century never happened. Stop wasting money on Internet, old cartoons, bad movies, direct to video crap, sports teams, and fix or sale ABC.

The Pop Century comment had me ROLLING!! I agree!

Pete

 

[WebmasterPete]

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron

I wasn’t quite sure you were real. But you are!! And to top it off you say such marvelous things!!!! Who knew that the first inkling of your very existence and I find that I don’t disagree with one single solitary word!! [/B]

Why does everyone say that? You know what it's like to have your very reality questioned? My mother was so put off by a thread on the CB last year about that topic, that she actually posted to the thread to tell people that yes, I was real, and I came from her, so she is certain (she also said I was the most energetic of her 6 children...read: Hyperactive). Poor woman never stood a chance as they didn't give out Ritalin when I was a kid (they just beat you into submission).

All this Universal talk today has me working on bringing back our Universal and Sea World sites. I could always use help if anyone feels like doing any write ups let me know

Pete

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Originally posted by EUROPA

Helloooo...Landbaron I think that I "get it too".

Well!!! After that wonderful post I don’t think you need to convince anyone!! But I knew that already!! I think everyone does. You’re pretty active here. I know I knew. I’ve always enjoyed your posts, But I was unfamiliar with JacksBack!! So I wanted to know from what seemed a true Universal nut, and someone new here, what Disney needed to do to compete.

Originally posted by WebmasterPete

Why does everyone say that? You know what it's like to have your very reality questioned?

Well, of course you’re real. We know that. But I gotta tell you, I’ve been here since 07-20-2000. And I lurked several months before registering. And since that time I’ve been pretty active here. Grabbed from my profile my Total Posts: 1770 (2.29 posts per day)!! To me that almost borders on a sickness!! And in all that time, other than the occasional “important message” at the top of the board, I have never met you. And I certainly never witnessed you “playing like one of us common folk” in a regular thread!! You seemed to be above the fray!! And I for one am absolutely THRILLED to finally meet you!! Why?

Because I respect you. The DIS (and especially the Rumors and News Board) is the best damn place on the interment to ‘learn’ and ‘intelligently discuss’ all things Disney. And I’ve tried them all!!! Believe me! When MousePlanet added boards I rushed over there and signed on!! Check out the post count there for the LandBaron. I think it’s somewhere between three and four!! I’m constantly pushing your (our!) site. I wish everyone would give it a try!

But, I’ve got to be honest. You did seem a bit surreal to me. After all, two and a half to three years worth of visiting your site and I never met you. You were more like the BIG boss in the background, or the father figure, a little mysterious and a little enigmatic. And I certainly wanted to get to now you. And to thank you. Personally!! Why?

Awe, that’s simple!! Just take a good look at your own signature!! FOUNDER. That says it all!!! YOU are the one that gave us this place. YOU are the one that gave me a forum to vent my absolute frustration when it comes to Disney (thus saving my wife her constant headache!). YOU are the one that made it possible for me to make some interment acquaintances and even some I consider friends. And YOU are the one that gave us the opportunity to meet some new people that we have something in common with, face to face. (I’ve got one coming up in about a month.) I appreciate all you have done. And I sincerely hope you post here on (I hope this isn’t too presumptuous) MY Rumors and News Board!! Of course it especially helps that your thinking and mine on things “Disney” fall pretty much in line!!!

Anyway, thanks!! And it’s good to know you’re real!!

Jeff

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by WebmasterPete

All this Universal talk today has me working on bringing back our Universal and Sea World sites. I could always use help if anyone feels like doing any write ups let me know

Pete

There are a few people over on the Universal side of the boards that have great knowledge.

Barry Hom(moderator)
Robinrs
MIB999999

Kelly Monaghan who has written a couple of books about Orlando and Universal also post over there.

There are also a few employees of Universal that post.

 

[Bob O]

Landbaron I would agree that not every disney park needs to have thrill type roller coasters and i woudnt put any in Epcot or even anymore in MK(unless they do finally build fire mountain). But MGM is tailor made for what i think should be 2 coasters, just like what IOA has. And when they build them they need somthing unique. They built RNRC which is a standard Vekoma coaster put in a building with bright lights and cheap cutouts. What IOA did was build something totally unique. No other park has dueling inverted coasters anywhere!!! And Hulk has a launch that is unique which no other park has, mainly due to the cost, and then a unique coaster layout that is different than other B & M coasters. IOA took the time/effort/money to give their guests unique experiences found at no other park while disney put a off the shlf coaster into a building. It is a example of one park trying to exceed expectations while another gets by with an off the shelf coaster with a little cheap theming. And this is one of the reasons among others that IOA always rates well on any poll of favorite theme parks, what disney used to do.

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

Leaving me to fend for myself!!!

Sorry, big fella.

The main reason I argued with folks over Disney topics was to convince people that Michael Eisner was bad for Disney's future and needed to be replaced. Not that I actually had anything to do with the sway of opinion, but it seems as though most folks are saying that, now.

Without the underlying purpose of making that point, it seems as though we're only debating our personal preferences.... that was never my intention.

I don't see myself posting that often, at least until the soap opera at the top really starts to work itself out. I'll feel exactly the same way about the fifth Flik's Fun Fair as I did about the first...

You know a PM once in a while would be nice!!

No PMs for me. You've read my stuff, I couldn't re-word a STOP sign in under 1000 characters. I nearly always respond to emails, though.

-WFH

 

[space42]

They built RNRC which is a standard Vekoma coaster put in a building with bright lights and cheap cutouts. What IOA did was build something totally unique.

Again, its a case of "different strokes for different folks"

While IOA may have the "better" coasters, I still feel that RNRC is a much better attraction.

For *me* it doesn't really matter how intense the coaster is or what record it breaks. Its all about the story. After that incredible queue for DD you just get to board a regular B&M coaster car with Dragon decorations on the side Then, the ride takes place over rather dull weedy/overgrown grassy area. This is where Universal fails IMHO. Its still "just a coaster" (a GREAT coaster, but still).

All of WDW's "coasters" are not coasters at all
Space Mountain is a rocket through space.
Thunder Mountain is an out of control mine train.
RNRC is a stretch limo (super stretch) ride through Hollywood (with a soundtrack no less!) What other Standered Vekoma coasters have this?
Shoot even PW is a time machine (oh my, did I just defend PW?)

This is why I'm not all that excited about this Universal rumor. In my opinion, they have only "Out Disneyed" Disney one time with Spiderman! It's going to take a lot more attractions of that caliber for this Car#3 Disney fan to start visiting Universal. I've been to both IOA and US one time each and have no plans on returning.

I agree that competition is a good thing. I would like to see Universal start to build more attractions on par with Spiderman. Perhaps this will wake the mouse up? Who knows...